38 réponses à ce sujet

[Cismontane]

I just finished "mark" and I'm more than a bit confused.  I can maybe understand why my Lady Champion Hawke might be willing to play along with an intriguing self-declared thief to mess with some Orlesian fop, but why would she continue to do so after the "thief" was revealed to be a Qunari agent? I get that she might've bought the agent's story that lots of people would be hurt and killed if the list of spies was revealed, but Hawke is no stranger to either war or politics, and she must recognize that a Qunari invasion of southern Thedas is a real threat.. and one which would lead to the death of many many more people.  

Letting the list get released would be a win-win proposition from my Hawke's perspective.  It would weaken the Qunari by undermining their spy network (innocent or not, it IS a spy network).  And if it was revealed that the Orlesians were the ones who killed the spies, then that would harm Orlesian interests, which would be music to the ears of any Ferelden (especially one to whom King Alistair had already revealed that Orlais might pose a threat to her former country).

Simply put, Hawke should've had the chance to either escape from Prosper's jail cell, either leaving Tallis behind to face the Duke's tender mercies or, more likely, allowing Tallis to escape as well and to stay and attempt to complete her mission on her own, while Hawke high-tailed it back to Kirkwall.  'sides, I don't think Prosper would've killed Hawke.  He might've just held her until his business was done (Tallis likely wouldn't have fared so well, needless to say).  Too many people saw Hawke at that party, and murdering the Champion likely wouldn't be in Orlais' best interests.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I can even see using Tallis to help you escape but, when you do leave her after the cavers, you should have the option to ally with Prosper and thus kill Tallis, or give her to the Qunari at the least.

I agree that it would be in the best interest of Ferelden, Kirkwall and Orlais to have those names. That could even be another quest for Kirkwall - assasinating the spies that Hawke found on the list.

There is no way my Charming, witty, and all too cunning mage Hawke would ever give up that chance - he sided with the Templars just so he could be Viscount and free the mages that way. (Okay so that would be post game imaginings, but I can see a mage doing just that.)

[Xilizhra]

Prosper wants you dead regardless for breaking into his castle, so I doubt siding with him would be an option. In any case, he's an expansionist bastard working for an evil empire. So I have no objections to that part. I find Tallis' autoescape a bit weak, but mostly in the manner it happened.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Prosper wants you dead regardless for breaking into his castle, so I doubt siding with him would be an option. In any case, he's an expansionist bastard working for an evil empire. So I have no objections to that part. I find Tallis' autoescape a bit weak, but mostly in the manner it happened.

Better Orlais than the Qunari.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe, but Orlais is far closer and more immediately threatening. We have no real evidence that the qunari are even planning something major for the near future; the Arishok just says that they'll return "one day."

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Hawke simply should have been allowed to kill Tallis at the end of the DLC.

Or at least try to, instead of saying 'I should kill you for this' and doing nothing when Tallis shrugs and walks.

Although granted Bioware would probably get screamed at if they pulled the 'You tried, but she's still alive' card again after Witch Hunt.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe, but Orlais is far closer and more immediately threatening. We have no real evidence that the qunari are even planning something major for the near future; the Arishok just says that they'll return "one day."

On a more basic, existential level, the Qunari are worse, since they represent a threat to every value that the people of Thedas keep. Giving them a leg up is just asking for trouble. Which is why that list should have been retrieved and Tallis flayed alive for being one of their agents.

[Xilizhra]

I might actually be willing to take the qunari if the templars win their war.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

I might actually be willing to take the qunari if the templars win their war.

Not worth it at all. The Chantry is better because it is hypocritical in its zealotry. They can't be convinced out of it and are more capable of change because their actions do not always reflect their dogma. The Qunari are not. If you are a mage, you will be chained, gagged, and enslaved. If you question anything, you will be sent to a work camp. No exceptions, ergo no chance for them to change, as their dogma and their actions match up to a terrifying extent.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, from a couple of lines from the qunari, I think some free mages are allowed to exist in the Ben-Hassrath, kind of like how that organization blurs the line between male and female roles. The Heart of the Many needs to have representatives of all the many.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, from a couple of lines from the qunari, I think some free mages are allowed to exist in the Ben-Hassrath, kind of like how that organization blurs the line between male and female roles. The Heart of the Many needs to have representatives of all the many.

I'm going to need a citation on that one.

[Xilizhra]

"If you were qunari, you would be Ben-Hassrath."--the Lost Swords guy, who then gives you a staff, so it's not like he didn't know what class you were. Also the Saarebas who says "Your role would change little if you accepted the Qun." At first, for a female mage, I thought the line made no sense, but then after learning that female Ben-Hassrath exist, suddenly that part did, because Hawke does kind of act like one. I'm guessing that mages exist there too.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Er...I'm hesitant to accept anything in reference to player characters, due to the amount of lorebending and lorebreaking that's inherent in such associations.

[Xilizhra]

Also, of those qunari who talk to Hawke extensively, the only one who makes a big deal about mages just plain existing is the Arvaraad, whose role involves keeping mages locked down, thus benefiting from having that mentality drilled into him. And I consider player characters to be part of the world regardless.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Saarebas also tells a female warrior or rouge that their role will change little if they accepted the Qun.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, of those qunari who talk to Hawke extensively, the only one who makes a big deal about mages just plain existing is the Arvaraad, whose role involves keeping mages locked down, thus benefiting from having that mentality drilled into him. And I consider player characters to be part of the world regardless.

Player characters are kind of iffy, as the lore ascribes a lot of rather ruthless punishments for mages in general...none of which ever come back to affect the PC. Qunari hate mages...except the PC. The Templars are great at detecting mages...except the PC and party mages. The player is such a huge exception to the lore that it's really difficult, if not impossible, to talk about the lore in a consistent fashion without discounting them. If the PC had all the same lore restrictions as most NPCs do, the game would be rather miserable to play.

[Xilizhra]

We only see one qunari talk about mages, Arvaraad. Who does in fact hate the PC. And Merrill and Anders have the same escape clause from templars that Hawke does, which I suspect is because the Kirkwall templars are grossly incompetent at anything that doesn't involve prisoner abuse.

[Forst1999]

Cismontane wrote...

Simply put, Hawke should've had the chance to either escape from Prosper's jail cell, either leaving Tallis behind to face the Duke's tender mercies or, more likely, allowing Tallis to escape as well and to stay and attempt to complete her mission on her own, while Hawke high-tailed it back to Kirkwall.  'sides, I don't think Prosper would've killed Hawke.  He might've just held her until his business was done (Tallis likely wouldn't have fared so well, needless to say).  Too many people saw Hawke at that party, and murdering the Champion likely wouldn't be in Orlais' best interests.

But you have the choice to try to escape without Tallis if you leave her behind i the caves. It's just a coincidence that you stumble over Tallis and Prosper again (i agree that might be a bit contrived, but an Anti-Qunari Hawke CAN try to just let the things go against the Qunari). And Prosper does try to kill him even then, he is pretty irritaded (i mean, he's a Jerk). I don't think anyone would judge him to much if he killed a burglar.
EDIT:In the case where Hawke abandons Tallis, he never really learns what's on the scroll, if i recall correctly. If he helped her before, there maybe should be an option to try to take it from her.

Modifié par Forst1999, 29 février 2012 - 06:57 .

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Er...I'm hesitant to accept anything in reference to player characters, due to the amount of lorebending and lorebreaking that's inherent in such associations.

Mary Kirby confirmed somewhere on the forums that Mages can become a part of the Ben-Hassrath.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wait wait wait... Back up for a minute... Orlais is an evil empire now?...

[TEWR]

Yes, considering half of Orlais wants to take back Ferelden, thinking they have a claim to it. Which they don't

And considering they sold Elves like cattle when they had conquered Ferelden, I think that makes them evil.

[Cismontane]

The only thing that united the mutually antagonistic feudal peoples of Medieval Europe was the threat posed by the Caliphate, and the Qunari are a very thinly disguised version of the Caliphate: migrants to the region, powerful, technologically advanced, fundamentalist, evangelical (to the point of forcing mass conversions at knifepoint), and completely, thoroughly alien.

My Hawke would recognize this. The Chantry may be brutal, thuggish and corrupt, and Orlais may be unstable and poised to attack Ferelden, but it's pretty clear that there are only three real threats in Thedas: the Dark Spawn, Tevinter and the Qunari, and, of those, only the Qunari are really an immediate danger. I think Sten and the Arishok basically said that an invasion was imminent.

Modifié par Cismontane, 01 mars 2012 - 04:20 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Er...I'm hesitant to accept anything in reference to player characters, due to the amount of lorebending and lorebreaking that's inherent in such associations.

Mary Kirby confirmed somewhere on the forums that Mages can become a part of the Ben-Hassrath.

In what context, though. I mean, a police dog is still part of a police force, even if they're on a leash.

[Cismontane]

In what context, though. I mean, a police dog is still part of a police force, even if they're on a leash.

yeah, exactly. All it probably means is that the Ben Hassrath keep cells filled with chained and collared mages at the ready.

I do wonder what the Qunari do to non-Kossith mages though.  It's safe to say that humans and elves probably  wouldn't survive the type of long-term abuse endured by the kossith saarebas and certainly not in sufficient physical and mental shape to be of use in any fighting, so presumably their conditions of imprisonment are better.  Or maybe they're killed outright?

Modifié par Cismontane, 01 mars 2012 - 04:26 .

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Er...I'm hesitant to accept anything in reference to player characters, due to the amount of lorebending and lorebreaking that's inherent in such associations.

Mary Kirby confirmed somewhere on the forums that Mages can become a part of the Ben-Hassrath.

In what context, though. I mean, a police dog is still part of a police force, even if they're on a leash.

Not sure. I can't find the quote in question, but IIRC it was said that they were more free then the other mages, but still watched carefully.