64 réponses à ce sujet

[ThePowerOfHAT]

 As far as major problems go, I think the one thing that bothers me in the demo is the overly synergistic nature of Biotic Charge and Nova for Vanguards.  Since Charge has the ability to instantly regenerate a Vanguard's shields, Nova becomes very, very easy to "spam".  The fact that Nova is not tied to any sort of cooldown makes this even more effortless, since - depending on the weapon(s) equipped - another Biotic Charge could be ready almost immediately after Nova is used.
The issue is that Nova is an incredibly powerful ability in its current form, and unlike most biotics, it has no chance to "miss" a target.  Since it's a close-ranged AOE ability, the fact that Biotic Charge also puts you into range for its use makes the abilities even more closely linked.  With Biotic Charge's instant shield boost and brief invulnerability, getting into range for and having the shield power necessary to perform a Nova blast is an almost entirely thoughtless process.  With both abilities fully leveled, a Vanguard can charge a group of enemies, use Nova two (or, if they're lucky, three) times, and have a completed cooldown to do it all over again, rendering them almost entirely invulnerable while attacking enemies.  It's a somewhat broken system unique to characters using these abilities, in my opinion, but I feel it could be fixed by making some changes to the way these abilities work.


Certainly it's reasonable to say that one option would be to just add a cooldown to Nova.  Personally, I like that Nova drains barriers instead of using a cooldown like most powers, as it makes it more unique.  But considering how powerful it currently is - and with the ability to recharge barriers almost instantly as the class - it ends up making most other offensive powers seem negligible.  I'd be surprised to see a single Vanguard who has Nova actually using something like Shockwave instead.
So one option would be to simply change the effect of the Nova.  Rather than being a physics-related, damaging ability (like Shockwave and Biotic Charge already are), maybe its primary purpose could be weaken enemies' ability to attack.  It already knocks them out of cover, but rather than dealing a great deal of damage, maybe simply have the ability do force-based damage (like throw at earlier levels) and greatly weaken enemies' weapon strength for a period of time.  Upgrades to the ability could slow enemy movement speed, reduce the amount of barrier strength expended, or do additional direct damage to enemy shields and barriers.  This would give Nova a far more teamwork-oriented focus, helping protect squad members and set enemies up for an easier kill.  Biotic Charge would still provide the Vanguard with a strong offensive ability that sets up Nova to be used quickly, while Charge and Shockwave would be the primary means for the class to deal biotic damage to enemies.


The other option for solving the issues with Nova would be to simply take away Vanguards' primary means to "charging" the ability; we could remove the barrier boost gained from Biotic Charge.
This means that Vanguards intent on using Nova would be putting themselves at greater risk when using Nova at the opening of combat, as they would not be able to instantly recharge the ability by simply using Charge again.  They would have to actually find cover from enemies and let their barriers recharge.  To balance out this change a bit more, upgrades or tweaks to Biotic Charge could be made that add temporary damage reduction after its use, thus still giving the ability a distinct defensive advantage to the player without also providing more barrier strength for a Nova blast.  This change would make keeping Nova the way it is more reasonable while also ensuring that it can't be "spammed" as it is currently.





Thoughts?  Other ideas?  I'm curious as to what people think about this.  From what I've seen on the forums and heard in-game, the Charge/Nova combination is generally looked down upon at the moment, and based on my personal experience when using it, that's a reasonable opinion to hold.

[Cyonan]

Making charge not regenerate our barriers would cripple us. The only reason we can stay in the thick of things is because we have a constantly regenerating shield, and would remove pretty much any reason to ever want to use nova, as we would just instantly die afterwards. In order to compensate, we would need to have the 30-40% damage reduction that sentinels or krogan soldiers get.

As for changing nova, I imagine it wouldn't change much other than vanguards would be getting less kills and assists on things. We would still be spamming it for the immunity it provides, or else just going Charge -> Shotgun, Shotgun -> Charge.

The only ways I can think of to fix it would be:

Change the Nova specs that allow us to use it 2-3 times back to back.
Make it so that Nova has a cooldown(Maybe make it so that half-bast doesn't trigger a cooldown on the first use, but does on the second).
Rework Nova into something else entirely.

[Elecbender]

There's a reason why the Biotic Cooldown Upgrade didn't affect Charge in ME2.

If Charge had a longer cooldown people would think twice before using Nova.

As it stands now, ANY class can just spam powers because the weight system encourages this. And pistols being as they are now aren't helping the situation.

Modifié par Elecbender, 29 février 2012 - 06:26 .

[IlluminaZer0]

Best way I can think of in passing:

Disable Nova canceling.
Freeze cooldown timer during Nova's invulnerability frames.

Nova by itself is powerful, but the real reason it is god mode is because it effectively reduces Charge's cooldown timer to essentially zero when you consider the accumulated invisibility time.

Modifié par IlluminaZer0, 29 février 2012 - 07:07 .

[Esperys]

IlluminaZer0 wrote...

Best way I can think of in passing:

Disable Nova canceling.
Freeze cooldown timer during Nova's invulnerability frames.

Nova by itself is powerful, but the real reason it is god mode is because it effectively reduces Charge's cooldown timer to essentially zero when you consider the accumulated invisibility time.

Genius. +1

[oneDRTYrusn]

ThePowerOfHAT wrote...
*Snippets*

Issues with Charge and Nova? Issues? Charge and Nova? What?

Have you PLAYED Vanguard?

Let me shoot it to you straight. In a perfect world, we can Charge>Nova all over the map for all of eternity. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world and this is not a perfect game.

After I charge and blow my load on Nova, I am effectively dead. The only chance at survival is to find another enemy and quickly Charge another enemy before I get murdered. Yes, I'm invulnerable during Charge and Nova, but I'm anything BUT invulnerable when I'm searching frantically for another target to Charge so that I can regen my barrier while a pack of enemies mow quickly through my health.

Playing as a Vanguard is not like dusting crops. It's all about situational awareness. If I charge headlong into a pack of enemies, you bet your sweet bottom that I'm drawing their attention. That's 5-10 enemies focusing on me all at once. Why? Because that's the Vanguard's job. We're the leading crowd control class of the game. 

What can YOU do while I'm doing this? Perhaps shoot some of the Guardians in the back. Maybe take down the shields of a few of the lumbering Centurions and Nemesi. 

Listen, Vanguards are essentially Enemy At The Gates-ing it for the rest of the team. We are putting our behinds on the line so that our team can more effectively take down the enemy at their weakest... and you want to gimp that? Really?

You know what a Vanguard has at her disposal if we don't use Charge and Nova? Shockwave. You know what Shockwave does to most enemies in Silver and Gold? Very little.

I can understand if you get annoyed with Vanguards in Bronze, since 95% of the enemy are trash for the slaughter. On Silver and Gold, a good Vanguard can be the best tool at your squads disposal. We keep them distracted while you blast away. Remove barrier recharge on Charge? You break Vanguard. Change Nova's damage output and/or blast effect on the enemy? You break Vanguard. It's as simple as that.

Modifié par oneDRTYrusn, 29 février 2012 - 08:15 .

[IlluminaZer0]

oneDRTYrusn wrote...

You can search for another enemy while using Nova. You can nova cancel or use half-blast to maximize your "search time" while in the open.

I think the bigger problem is that Charge->Nova spam is so lenient that Vanguards forget there is such a thing as cover -- And don't bother gauging risk before a charge.

You can do surprisingly well just mashing Y while moving the camera hoping it locks onto something.

Modifié par IlluminaZer0, 29 février 2012 - 08:18 .

[dw99027]

Agreed. Missing your charge due to input lag also results in a dead Vanguard. No need for any nerfing.

[Cyonan]

oneDRTYrusn wrote...
Let me shoot it to you straight. In a perfect world, we can Charge>Nova all over the map for all of eternity. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world and this is not a perfect game.

After I charge and blow my load on Nova, I am effectively dead. The only chance at survival is to find another enemy and quickly Charge another enemy before I get murdered. Yes, I'm invulnerable during Charge and Nova, but I'm anything BUT invulnerable when I'm searching frantically for another target to Charge so that I can regen my barrier while a pack of enemies mow quickly through my health.

The problem is that I can chain multiple novas back to back, rendering me immune to all damage till I find a new charge target. The only reason I ever can't find a new charge target in time on my vanguard is because I ran out of enemies to charge, or occasionally I might miss a far off nemesis, but that's about it.

We're supposed to be high risk high reward, but we're not all that high risk when we're spending 90% of our time immune to all forms of damage.

[count_4]

ThePowerOfHAT wrote...

From what you're writing, it seems you've barely played any silver or even gold. 
Try spamming Charge+Nova on gold and you'll notice that it is far from the mindless button mashing you described.

Cyonan wrote...
The problem is that I can chain multiple novas back to back, rendering me immune to all damage till I find a new charge target

 
And how would you do this? Wait until the barrier is going up again? On higher difficulties you're probably dead by then.

Modifié par count_4, 29 février 2012 - 08:36 .

[Esperys]

count_4 wrote...

ThePowerOfHAT wrote...

From what you're writing, it seems you've barely played any silver or even gold. 
Try spamming Charge+Nova on gold and you'll notice that it is far from the mindless button mashing you described.

Cyonan wrote...
The problem is that I can chain multiple novas back to back, rendering me immune to all damage till I find a new charge target

 
And how would you do this? Wait until the barrier is going up again? On higher difficulties you're probably dead by then.

There's an upgrade for nova that lets you do it twice, each time costing 50% of your barrier instead of 100%. In the time it takes to do 2 novas...your charge has refreshed. You don't wait on anything. You charge, nova, nova, charge again. (You're invulnerable the entire series unless latency or user error causes a lag between ability activations)

[edited to clarify]

Modifié par Esperys, 29 février 2012 - 08:40 .

[atheelogos]

Elecbender wrote...

As it stands now, ANY class can just spam powers.

That's the point. Those classes are built to kill people with their powers. To take that away would send us back to ME2 cooldowns....... No one wants that again.

[Cyonan]

count_4 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...
The problem is that I can chain multiple novas back to back, rendering me immune to all damage till I find a new charge target

 
And how would you do this? Wait until the barrier is going up again? On higher difficulties you're probably dead by then.

You can combine specs for Nova to make it only cost 50% of your barrier(And reduce damage by 40%), as well as give it a 25% chance to not consume any amount of your barrier. I'm guarantee'd 2 novas with a possible third right now.

[Esperys]

Cyonan wrote...

You can combine specs for Nova to make it only cost 50% of your barrier(And reduce damage by 40%), as well as give it a 25% chance to not consume any amount of your barrier. I'm guarantee'd 2 novas with a possible third right now.

I didn't even take the 25% free nova upgrade and still have no trouble being practicaly immortal in self hosted games (barring user error). I took the 100% bonus damage vs. defenses just to help tackle the job of phantoms and keeping atlas' busy.

[oneDRTYrusn]

Cyonan wrote...

The problem is that I can chain multiple novas back to back, rendering me immune to all damage till I find a new charge target.

Either you're not getting the point, or you're playing Bronze like it's cool.

Yeah, we are invulnerable during Charge and Nova. Let's analyze this for a second.

Why are Vanguards immune to damage during Charge? I'm willing to bet that it's because we become a streek of blue-light traveling at impact valocity towards a target. Have you ever tried to shoot a streeking blue light? Neither have I, but I'm willing to bet it's pretty much impossible.

Why are Vanguards immune to damage during Nova? That's simple. If we were not, we'd be dead by the time the animation for Nova was finished. Let's do the math:

5-10 NPC's focus-firing me + blowing my shields with Nova = one DEAD Vanguard.

Even if you specced for Double Blast and you kept 50% shields, on anything higher than bronze, that'll all mostly be gone by the time the Nova animation finishes.

The way I've seen GOOD Vanguards play, including myself, is using a combination of Charge>Nova and then quickly finding cover, trying to break as much line-of-site as you can while your cooldown wears off. The horror stories of Vanguards running off into the sunset, only to wind up dead in two and a half seconds are the idiots who Charge>Nova... then just sort of stand there, mashing their charge button like it'll make the cooldown go faster.

Regardless of what people think, Vanguard is the a one-man-wrecking-ball that it gets labled as. Anyone who says they are has either never played Vanguard, or they are lying through their teeth when they say they have a lvl 20 Vanguard.

Modifié par oneDRTYrusn, 29 février 2012 - 08:50 .

[Esperys]

oneDRTYrusn wrote...

The way I've seen GOOD Vanguards play, including myself, is using a combination of Charge>Nova and then quickly finding cover, trying to break as much line-of-site as you can while your cooldown wears off. The horror stories of Vanguards running off into the sunset, only to wind up dead in two and a half seconds are the idiots who Charge>Nova... then just sort of stand there, mashing their charge button like it'll make the cooldown go faster.

I would think a GOOD vanguard would realize if you have double nova, charge cooldown is up by the time animation finishes on the second one. There is no waiting. (Unless by good you mean a vanguard that carried a sniper rifle and revenant and thus has horrendous recharges?) 

[Cyonan]

oneDRTYrusn wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

The problem is that I can chain multiple novas back to back, rendering me immune to all damage till I find a new charge target.

Either you're not getting the point, or you're playing Bronze like it's cool.

Yeah, we are invulnerable during Charge and Nova. Let's analyze this for a second.

Why are Vanguards immune to damage during Charge? I'm willing to bet that it's because we become a streek of blue-light traveling at impact valocity towards a target. Have you ever tried to shoot a streeking blue light? Neither have I, but I'm willing to bet it's pretty much impossible.

Why are Vanguards immune to damage during Nova? That's simple. If we were not, we'd be dead by the time the animation for Nova was finished. Let's do the math:

5-10 NPC's focus-firing me + blowing my shields with Nova = one DEAD Vanguard.

Even if you specced for Double Blast and you kept 50% shields, on anything higher than bronze, that'll all mostly be gone by the time the Nova animation finishes.

The way I've seen GOOD Vanguards play, including myself, is using a combination of Charge>Nova and then quickly finding cover, trying to break as much line-of-site as you can while your cooldown wears off. The horror stories of Vanguards running off into the sunset, only to wind up dead in two and a half seconds are the idiots who Charge>Nova... then just sort of stand there, mashing their charge button like it'll make the cooldown go faster.

Regardless of what people think, Vanguard is the a one-man-wrecking-ball that it gets labled as. Anyone who says they are has either never played Vanguard, or they are lying through their teeth when they say they have a lvl 20 Vanguard.

Being immune for a single nova isn't a bad thing, in fact it's pretty much neccessary since the nova itself drains our barriers. The problem is that I can just chain them until charge is back, removing any need to actually use cover. My barriers aren't going to get drained by outside damage while i'm nova spamming because i'm immune to outside damage while nova spamming.

I'm not immortal or anything, but i'm immune for far longer than any one class should be allowed, then allowed to just regen my shields all back and start the cycle again.

and if you don't want to believe me about my level 20 vanguard, I can give you the screenshot of it.

[Butthead11]

Get rid of their biotic abilities and force them to use a sniper without a scope no mods.

[Maria Caliban]

We all know what this is about. Let me illustrate.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 29 février 2012 - 09:17 .

[oneDRTYrusn]

Cyonan wrote...

and if you don't want to believe me about my level 20 vanguard, I can give you the screenshot of it.

I'm not into this for a wang-measuring contest. I wouldn't care even if your Vanguard rolls on dubs and is pimped out with underglow.


I've admitted that yes, you are immune during your animations. Is this intended? Yeah, I'm willing to bet it is. Other classes are NOT immune during their ability animations, and I'm sure Vanguard's Nova animation was no different. It's not an error in coding. It's not an oversight. It's been made that way for a reason.

We do not have the luxury of actually testing how it would perform without the immunity, but you know who probably has? BioWare.

I honestly don't see the point in your arguement. This is not a Player vs. Player game. This is not Deathmatch. We are not talking about how Vanguards perform against other classes. This is a class-based Horde game. Every class has been engineered to fit a specific role.

Think of it like an MMO and you're group is rolling through a dungeon. The Vanguard is the guy who soaks up ALL THE DAMAGE so that the other squishier classes can do the real damage. In Bronze mode, Vanguard is the swift hammer of justice, raining hate and discontent on anyone in their warpath... but really, almost every class is like that on Bronze.

The point is that this is not a competetive game. Everyone is part of ONE TEAM that bring a set of skills that help them acheive a goal. Did I get more kills than you? Sure I did. Does that mean anything? No, it doesn't. We all walk away with the same spoils of victory. This is not Modern Warfare where your killcount shows how much l33t skillzz you have. Change your mentality and you'll have more fun.

[Delta 57 Dash]

Wait, a nerf vanguard thread?

... WHAT

It already takes quick reflexes and excellent situational awareness to use the class, and now you want to make it bloody useless?!?

While you're at it, let's make stasis no longer work on shielded enemies, triple cooldown on throw (because it's "too spammable"), let enemies shoot infiltrators while they're cloaked, and halve Krogan melee damage.

That way everyone can wallow in uselessness!

[Guglio08]

I just wish my screen didn't horribly shake whenever a Vanguard did anything.

Nova cancelling has to go however.

[Cyonan]

oneDRTYrusn wrote...

I'm not into this for a wang-measuring contest. I wouldn't care even if your Vanguard rolls on dubs and is pimped out with underglow.


I've admitted that yes, you are immune during your animations. Is this intended? Yeah, I'm willing to bet it is. Other classes are NOT immune during their ability animations, and I'm sure Vanguard's Nova animation was no different. It's not an error in coding. It's not an oversight. It's been made that way for a reason.

We do not have the luxury of actually testing how it would perform without the immunity, but you know who probably has? BioWare.

I honestly don't see the point in your arguement. This is not a Player vs. Player game. This is not Deathmatch. We are not talking about how Vanguards perform against other classes. This is a class-based Horde game. Every class has been engineered to fit a specific role.

Think of it like an MMO and you're group is rolling through a dungeon. The Vanguard is the guy who soaks up ALL THE DAMAGE so that the other squishier classes can do the real damage. In Bronze mode, Vanguard is the swift hammer of justice, raining hate and discontent on anyone in their warpath... but really, almost every class is like that on Bronze.

The point is that this is not a competetive game. Everyone is part of ONE TEAM that bring a set of skills that help them acheive a goal. Did I get more kills than you? Sure I did. Does that mean anything? No, it doesn't. We all walk away with the same spoils of victory. This is not Modern Warfare where your killcount shows how much l33t skillzz you have. Change your mentality and you'll have more fun.

I admitted that Nova needs the immunity or it would near useless. The problem is that we can simply chain nova's together. The issue isn't Nova itself, it's the Half-Blast and Sustain specs you can pick up for it, combined with being able to get 200% ability recharge when you run with a single pistol.

This not being a competative or pvp game doesn't mean they shouldn't bother to balance things. Nova spam Vanguards currently are ignoring the "high risk" part of their class, and being immune to damage for far too much of the time, and it doesn't happen in just bronze, so I don't know why you keep mentioning bronze level.

[InvincibleHero]

I don't know anybody else's experience but I have died many times after strating a charge and while moving. I don't think it is 100% invulnerability. Maybe that can be hanged on lag though.

You are extremely vulnerable after a charge nova and no it takes a second or two to have charge again with most builds. Sometimes you think you got someone lined up and the game won't let you lock on because of some variable like the amount of cover the enemy is in or the smoke being present and other instances. It is a tough class to play and yes I try to get into cover to recharge barriers because that is a smart thing to do.

[goofyomnivore]

It already takes quick reflexes and excellent situational awareness to use the class, and now you want to make it bloody useless?!?

I'd buy that maybe in Mass Effect 2. But Mass Effect 3 you're kidding yourself if you believe that.

You are extremely vulnerable after a charge nova and no it takes a second or two to have charge again with most builds.

If you bring a Katana and Carnifex your charge is 3.43s cooldown. It taks about .5-1s to charge to your enemy another 2s to do the nova animation. There is about a 1s-.5s window you're typically vulnerable in.

Modifié par strive, 29 février 2012 - 10:11 .