64 réponses à ce sujet

[G3rman]

How about we not bother balancing it out at all since this isn't PvP and we share points? If your team-mates are overpowered killers you should be 1. Thanking them 2. Outkilling them 3. Joining them.

Stuff like this makes the game fun in Co-op, not worse.

[MoZedK]

I dont understand the hate against Vanguards, they are not that powerfull. Yes it is a easy class in bronze ok no problem for me, but hit silver or Gold they are not that good, they become hard to play unless you die all the time and need rez by teammates.
I think it nice there is a class that you can bronze play god with, so the peeps that like that can play it and let other go silver and gold for a challange, I havent seen that many play it in gold, and some of them where not that good and may be good "killars" to start with but become an releiability later on.

So I think they are allright as they are. I would rather have an extra Infiltrator then a Vanguard on the team on gold, but that in the fact that they normaly is easyer to keep your self alive, and on gold thats a nice think to have.

[curly haired boy]

vanguards are great as it is, but i'm not a huge fan of whipping out nova after every charge. i'd rather mop up with a shotgun.

[Arppis]

IlluminaZer0 wrote...

Best way I can think of in passing:

Disable Nova canceling.
Freeze cooldown timer during Nova's invulnerability frames.

Nova by itself is powerful, but the real reason it is god mode is because it effectively reduces Charge's cooldown timer to essentially zero when you consider the accumulated invisibility time.

That's not a bad way to do it.

IF it must be done. But Vanguard isn't some indestructible master of war.

Modifié par Arppis, 29 février 2012 - 01:57 .

[I-am-Biwinning]

Don't nerf vanguards plz. Sure on bronze anybody can roflstomp right up to the top of the scoreboard with no problem. On silver, you have to be a ridiculously good vanguard to pull off what people do in bronze. In gold, roflstomping is not an option. If you mess up, even for a split second, you're dead. You die immediately, and probably in a place where your team won't be able to get to you. People who only play on bronze don't understand that tension, bad charge = dead

[Kaylord]

Yeah, this is quite some bonze whining, here. I started gold runs since a few days ago, and my vanguard has to really sit out some situations because your charge/nova combo is not quite invulnerable as you "bronzees" might think. I am lucky if my staggers allow me enough time for some shots and to run for cover again. My last team was two asari adepts, engineer and my vanguard. I think I was the one with the most difficult gameplay situations because survival in close combat really is a difficult issue.

[themaxzero]

In a 'I hate Vanguard' threads its all "were a Vanguards we can solo this, we are awesome, we don't need anyone, you are just jealous!"

In a Vanguard nerf thread its all "well Vanguards are not that strong please don't nerf me!"

I love it. The blatant self interest is just so...blatant.

A slight nerf to Charge->Nova so a bit more thought is involved wouldn't hurt anyone.

Unless of course you can't play any other class.

Modifié par themaxzero, 29 février 2012 - 02:35 .

[EsterCloat]

There seems to be two forms of Vanguards that people view: the newbie who can't play the class worth a fig and die during the first round of Bronze or the uber-god who can stomp four Atlases at once on Gold while being shot at by Phantoms. At least, that seems to be the gist of what most people think.

The first one is easy; the second form takes a lot of hard work. I don't care what people say, you can't do Charge/Nova spam on Gold without dying a lot unless you're very skilled. I know I never pop a second Nova in Gold because being without shields even for a moment in that death trap is just asking to be executed by an Atlas or Phantom. Or just shot down by a lowly Trooper. I can't even Charge into the thick of it without my teammates because being shot at by five enemies on Gold for even .5 seconds without back up means I'm dead.

Not everyone is a god with a Vanguard.

[Fortack]

atheelogos wrote...

Those classes are built to kill people with their powers. To take that away would send us back to ME2 cooldowns....... No one wants that again.

I prefer the ME2 vanguard. ME3's is rather boring because of the issue mentioned in the OP. ME2's Charge is on a ~5 sec cooldown. That's just enough to make it to the next Charge, but one (small) mistake would get you killed. The ME3 cooldowns are so fast you cannot die anymore, which defeats the point of the class entirely (IMHO). The only danger are turrets when you play on gold.

curly haired boy wrote...

vanguards are great as it is, but i'm not a huge fan of whipping out nova after every charge. i'd rather mop up with a shotgun.

This human understands.

[P38 ace]

But when are you using weapons, during the whole thing???

If you are just doing a charge-nova combo, or spaming powers, weather you die or not the vanguard is suppost to be a combat-biotic mix

The way it is now is a CQB Adept and nothing more.

[Stardusk78]

oneDRTYrusn wrote...

ThePowerOfHAT wrote...
*Snippets*

Issues with Charge and Nova? Issues? Charge and Nova? What?

Have you PLAYED Vanguard?

Let me shoot it to you straight. In a perfect world, we can Charge>Nova all over the map for all of eternity. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world and this is not a perfect game.

After I charge and blow my load on Nova, I am effectively dead. The only chance at survival is to find another enemy and quickly Charge another enemy before I get murdered. Yes, I'm invulnerable during Charge and Nova, but I'm anything BUT invulnerable when I'm searching frantically for another target to Charge so that I can regen my barrier while a pack of enemies mow quickly through my health.

Playing as a Vanguard is not like dusting crops. It's all about situational awareness. If I charge headlong into a pack of enemies, you bet your sweet bottom that I'm drawing their attention. That's 5-10 enemies focusing on me all at once. Why? Because that's the Vanguard's job. We're the leading crowd control class of the game. 

What can YOU do while I'm doing this? Perhaps shoot some of the Guardians in the back. Maybe take down the shields of a few of the lumbering Centurions and Nemesi. 

Listen, Vanguards are essentially Enemy At The Gates-ing it for the rest of the team. We are putting our behinds on the line so that our team can more effectively take down the enemy at their weakest... and you want to gimp that? Really?

You know what a Vanguard has at her disposal if we don't use Charge and Nova? Shockwave. You know what Shockwave does to most enemies in Silver and Gold? Very little.

I can understand if you get annoyed with Vanguards in Bronze, since 95% of the enemy are trash for the slaughter. On Silver and Gold, a good Vanguard can be the best tool at your squads disposal. We keep them distracted while you blast away. Remove barrier recharge on Charge? You break Vanguard. Change Nova's damage output and/or blast effect on the enemy? You break Vanguard. It's as simple as that.

Tactical? Vanguarding in ME3 is just nova and charge spamming...that doesn't require much skill.

[Chaoswind]

Cyonan wrote...

oneDRTYrusn wrote...

I'm not into this for a wang-measuring contest. I wouldn't care even if your Vanguard rolls on dubs and is pimped out with underglow.


I've admitted that yes, you are immune during your animations. Is this intended? Yeah, I'm willing to bet it is. Other classes are NOT immune during their ability animations, and I'm sure Vanguard's Nova animation was no different. It's not an error in coding. It's not an oversight. It's been made that way for a reason.

We do not have the luxury of actually testing how it would perform without the immunity, but you know who probably has? BioWare.

I honestly don't see the point in your arguement. This is not a Player vs. Player game. This is not Deathmatch. We are not talking about how Vanguards perform against other classes. This is a class-based Horde game. Every class has been engineered to fit a specific role.

Think of it like an MMO and you're group is rolling through a dungeon. The Vanguard is the guy who soaks up ALL THE DAMAGE so that the other squishier classes can do the real damage. In Bronze mode, Vanguard is the swift hammer of justice, raining hate and discontent on anyone in their warpath... but really, almost every class is like that on Bronze.

The point is that this is not a competetive game. Everyone is part of ONE TEAM that bring a set of skills that help them acheive a goal. Did I get more kills than you? Sure I did. Does that mean anything? No, it doesn't. We all walk away with the same spoils of victory. This is not Modern Warfare where your killcount shows how much l33t skillzz you have. Change your mentality and you'll have more fun.

I admitted that Nova needs the immunity or it would near useless. The problem is that we can simply chain nova's together. The issue isn't Nova itself, it's the Half-Blast and Sustain specs you can pick up for it, combined with being able to get 200% ability recharge when you run with a single pistol.

This not being a competative or pvp game doesn't mean they shouldn't bother to balance things. Nova spam Vanguards currently are ignoring the "high risk" part of their class, and being immune to damage for far too much of the time, and it doesn't happen in just bronze, so I don't know why you keep mentioning bronze level.

Running around with one weapon isn't that great

Having a X weapon makes a huge difference in damage dealing, something that the Vanguard can't do, because they would lose their spaming

You all are complaining about Nova Spam now, but that is because the demo lacks half of the items and weapons in the game, I have a Turian Sentinel with a X mathod (the rifle) and I spam chain overload like a boss and then pick all the targets while they dance, and I find it more effective and less risky than Nova/Spaming.

Also the vanguad gathers his barrier around him before releasing the Nova, that is why SHOTS don't do damage (insta kills work just fine).

The only thing that needs to go is the Nova canceling.

[P38 ace]

My question still stands.

[Chaoswind]

when we get better weapons we will

besides I already use weapons, and all good vanguards use a pistol with scope to weaken enemies before jumping to the mob

[EsterCloat]

P38 ace wrote...

But when are you using weapons, during the whole thing???

If you are just doing a charge-nova combo, or spaming powers, weather you die or not the vanguard is suppost to be a combat-biotic mix

The way it is now is a CQB Adept and nothing more.

When I'm fighting something that isn't a trooper? Charge Nova doesn't always kill something in one combo on Gold so I unload a shotgun shell into their face while their down. Also, Charging Atlas Mechs works for a time but you always have that chance of getting insta-killed so I only start charging once its shields are down. Essentially anything that I don't kill with one shot, which is basically everything that isn't a trooper on Gold, I shotgun to finish off. Not to mention having a gun is invaluable when taking out a turret.

[Simbacca]

EsterCloat wrote...

There seems to be two forms of Vanguards that people view: the newbie who can't play the class worth a fig and die during the first round of Bronze or the uber-god who can stomp four Atlases at once on Gold while being shot at by Phantoms. At least, that seems to be the gist of what most people think.

The first one is easy; the second form takes a lot of hard work. I don't care what people say, you can't do Charge/Nova spam on Gold without dying a lot unless you're very skilled. I know I never pop a second Nova in Gold because being without shields even for a moment in that death trap is just asking to be executed by an Atlas or Phantom. Or just shot down by a lowly Trooper. I can't even Charge into the thick of it without my teammates because being shot at by five enemies on Gold for even .5 seconds without back up means I'm dead.

Not everyone is a god with a Vanguard.

This.  And I'll go one step further:  the people that believe the Vanguard is "an uber-god who can stomp four Atlases at once solo on Gold while being shot at by Phantoms" are people who don't seriously run Gold at all, no matter what they say.  That is an opinion that can only be formed on Bronze.

Yes a decent Vanguard will seem unstoppable on Bronze, a good Vanguard may seem unstoppable on Silver, but any nerfs (other than removing the nova cancel glitch which I believe serious players don't use/need) would cripple the role of the class on Gold.  And the role of the class is to draw aggro and disrupt the enemy AI of a smartly selected group of foes so the rest of squad can pick them off all around the Vanguard.  Anyone who can't get kills when running with a Vanguard on their squad on Silver/Gold is a bad player.  Just follow a good distance behind the Vanguard and pick off any of the many enemies they stagger per Charge/Nova, or the many half health straggers they have to leave behind when they are forced to Charge again.

The only thing I've noticed needing fixing (again, other than nova cancelling), when playing as or playing with a Vanguard, is what I started this thread for.

EsterCloat wrote...

When I'm fighting something that isn't a trooper? Charge Nova doesn't always kill something in one combo on Gold so I unload a shotgun shell into their face while their down. Also, Charging Atlas Mechs works for a time but
you always have that chance of getting insta-killed so I only start charging once its shields are down. Essentially anything that I don't kill with one shot, which is basically everything that isn't a trooper on Gold, I shotgun to finish off. Not to mention having a gun is invaluable when taking out a turret.

This too.  I use my Shotgun all the time with my Vanguard.  Of course I may be one of the few that took the Shotgun damage over Power Damage post-Charge evolution, but I'm always spamming the trigger while Charging because you'll fire the moment you hit.  In fact on high Silver/Gold, unless it's just a crowd of Troopers/Nemeses, I always take 2-3 shots post Charge rather than Nova immediately.  It's straight up safer than blowing your barrier immediately, and more deadly too.

Modifié par Simbacca, 29 février 2012 - 04:49 .

[Guglio08]

Nova Cancelling is so easy though. Half of me wants it to stay because it does take some planning and good reflexes to constantly pull it off over and over, but the other half wants it gone because there's no way that is balanced.

The half blast might make it too good, because at that point you could actually Nova and then just cancel until you Charge again. The fact that I can distract 3 guardians and a turret and take no damage at all is kind of enough proof that it needs to go.

[Cuthlan]

Just stop it. Stop trying to get things nerfed in a co-op non-pvp game. Stop trying to ruin a viable playstyle for other people.

[P38 ace]

It is not viable, it steels the fun from other people, by being able to move across the map an be. invunerable for 90% of the time may be fun for the vanguard but not for is team

It is co-op for a reason not co- sit back and whach the vanguard do everthing-op

[Cuthlan]

I thought you said human vanguards were "tarrible"?

[Simbacca]

P38 ace wrote...

It is not viable, it steels the fun from other people, by being able to move across the map an be. invunerable for 90% of the time may be fun for the vanguard but not for is team

It is co-op for a reason not co- sit back and whach the vanguard do everthing-op

Stopping playing on bronze and/or start playing with people on your friends list instead of always searching for a public match (and if you have no friends that play ME, it's not hard to add people you like in game or from the many online communities that are all about having mature gamers to run co-op with and usually have 'friends of friends' lists for each game). 

Hell I get my kills "stolen" as a vanguard when running Silver/Gold with my friends.  The skilled snipers among them headshot the enemies I stun with Nova the moment it hits.  Charge/Nova doesn't kill anything on Gold/late-waves Silver.

I swear most of the compliants on these forums about vanguard balance are due solely to gaming with random people... 

The people that cry that vanguards can slaughter everything faster than they can shoot are playing Bronze public matches and running into a gaming troll that is playing their Silver/Gold ready vanguard in a Bronze room to be just that, a troll. 

The people that cry that the vanguards are useless are the people playing Silver/Gold public matches and running into a noob (or possibly another variant of a gaming troll) that doesn't realize quick match defaults to searching for any difficulty rooms.

Modifié par Simbacca, 29 février 2012 - 07:42 .

[P38 ace]

I did, nova is terrible 1) it is cheap when used with charge. 2) it is horrible when used alone
Shock wave, 85% of people agree it is horrible. I believe it needs go back to its ME2 style
So the only power that a human vanguard has that is both useful and fair to his/hers teamates is charge, and w/o nova would be used less often

And I will say it again the human vanguard is a CQB Adept and nothing more.

[CrazyCatDude]

Chaoswind wrote...

Running around with one weapon isn't that great

Having a X weapon makes a huge difference in damage dealing, something that the Vanguard can't do, because they would lose their spaming

You all are complaining about Nova Spam now, but that is because the demo lacks half of the items and weapons in the game, I have a Turian Sentinel with a X mathod (the rifle) and I spam chain overload like a boss and then pick all the targets while they dance, and I find it more effective and less risky than Nova/Spaming.

Also the vanguad gathers his barrier around him before releasing the Nova, that is why SHOTS don't do damage (insta kills work just fine).

The only thing that needs to go is the Nova canceling.

I roll with two X weapons on my Vanguard.  The Katana X and the Predator X.  The Katana X with smart choke and high cal. barrel is my turrent killer.  The Predator X comes out during the extraction phase, when everyone *should* be bunkering up at the drop zone, and I'm usually the only one there, so I end up pistol sniping to save my team mate's butts so we get the full extraction bonus.  (I used to just use the Katana for this, but at level 20, there is NO cooldown different between carrying a Katana and carrying a Katana and a Predator.)