64 réponses à ce sujet

[CrazyCatDude]

P38 ace wrote...

But when are you using weapons, during the whole thing???

If you are just doing a charge-nova combo, or spaming powers, weather you die or not the vanguard is suppost to be a combat-biotic mix

The way it is now is a CQB Adept and nothing more.

Shotguns are actually fantastic for popping over cover and stripping the shields off a turrent.  Fit them with a smart choke, and they are also decent for situations where you just do not want to charge.  They are also good for plugging guardians when they stagger after a charge.

I love Nova, but there *are* times when busting a Nova is not the right way to deal with an enemy.

[ThePowerOfHAT]

Simbacca wrote...

Yes a decent Vanguard will seem unstoppable on Bronze, a good Vanguard may seem unstoppable on Silver, but any nerfs (other than removing the nova cancel glitch which I believe serious players don't use/need) would cripple the role of the class on Gold.  And the role of the class is to draw aggro and disrupt the enemy AI of a smartly selected group of foes so the rest of squad can pick them off all around the Vanguard.  Anyone who can't get kills when running with a Vanguard on their squad on Silver/Gold is a bad player.  

This actually mirrors my thoughts exactly.  If a "decent" (or, let's face it, most any Level 20) Vanguard can seem unstoppable on Bronze, that doesn't mean he'll have the same effect on Silver or Gold.  And I agree that the role of Vanguards should indeed be to draw enemy fire.  Hence why my first suggestion for changing the Nova ability, to me, seems very reasonable.  It would fit far more closely with what the purpose of the Vanguard as a class is, and in many ways - at least in my opinion - would make it more fun and interesting to play as.  Modifying Nova so that its effects are intended more for weakening enemies' attacks, movement speed, and/or shields/barriers would make it far more appropriate as a method of "tanking".  In its current form, it serves specifically as a high-damage ability, which seems odd to me considering that Vanguards already have Shockwave and Charge for that purpose.

My proposal would not only make Nova a far more interesting and unique ability, but it would be far more appropriate for generally accepted role of the class.  In my opinion, that wouldn't be a "nerf" to the Vanguard class as a whole, but instead a way of tweaking it to make it stronger in its arguably intended purpose.



So many here seem intent on implying that we're all calling for a "nerf" to Vanguards, but in my opinion, that's not what anyone is asking for.  We're simply looking for a way to make the class more suited to its primary goal while also dealing with what I think most will agree is a major imbalance on the lowest difficulty setting.  And no, I don't think that the argument that Vanguards aren't nearly as powerful on Silver and Gold stands as a fair retort, because that's true of every class and every ability combo, and simply ignoring the imbalances present on Bronze difficulty don't make them any less present.

Hell, in my experience, yes, the Charge/Nova combo is far less effective and arguably suicidal on higher difficulties, so why not consider the changes I've recommended as a way of actually making that a more viable tactic?  I think it's fair to assume that increasing Nova's effectiveness as a team-oriented, tanking-related ability rather than the direct damage ability it is now would actually be beneficial to Vanguard players, myself included.  I know I'd love for it to do something more than just barely stagger a shielded opponent.  Wouldn't we all?

[Thoragoros]

ThePowerOfHAT wrote...

 As far as major problems go, I think the one thing that bothers me in the demo is the overly synergistic nature of Biotic Charge and Nova for Vanguards.  Since Charge has the ability to instantly regenerate a Vanguard's shields, Nova becomes very, very easy to "spam".  The fact that Nova is not tied to any sort of cooldown makes this even more effortless, since - depending on the weapon(s) equipped - another Biotic Charge could be ready almost immediately after Nova is used.

You are aware that Nova 'costs' half your shields, right?  That is more than enough cost.

And judging by the number of 'dead' Vanguards I have encountered, Vanguards are more than 'balanced' in their current state.  To be perfectly honest, myself and a friend of mine are the only the two decent Vanguards I've encountered.  I have never encountered a 'random' Vanguard that was above average on the leaderboard.

oneDRTYrusn wrote...


Let me shoot it to you straight. In a perfect world, we can Charge>Nova all over the map for all of eternity. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world and this is not a perfect game.

After I charge and blow my load on Nova, I am effectively dead. The only chance at survival is to find another enemy and quickly Charge another enemy before I get murdered. Yes, I'm invulnerable during Charge and Nova, but I'm anything BUT invulnerable when I'm searching frantically for another target to Charge so that I can regen my barrier while a pack of enemies mow quickly through my health.

This.

Also, even with Double Nova, you have blown all your shielding, meaning that unless you immediately Charge another enemy, you are toast.

ThePowerOfHAT wrote...


So many here seem intent on implying that we're all calling for a "nerf" to Vanguards, but in my opinion, that's not what anyone is asking for. We're simply looking for a way to make the class more suited to its primary goal while also dealing with what I think most will agree is a major imbalance on the lowest difficulty setting. And no, I don't think that the argument that Vanguards aren't nearly as powerful on Silver and Gold stands as a fair retort, because that's true of every class and every ability combo, and simply ignoring the imbalances present on Bronze difficulty don't make them any less present.

Hell, in my experience, yes, the Charge/Nova combo is far less effective and arguably suicidal on higher difficulties, so why not consider the changes I've recommended as a way of actually making that a more viable tactic? I think it's fair to assume that increasing Nova's effectiveness as a team-oriented, tanking-related ability rather than the direct damage ability it is now would actually be beneficial to Vanguard players, myself included. I know I'd love for it to do something more than just barely stagger a shielded opponent. Wouldn't we all?

Stop talking about Bronze.  Bronze is entirely irrelevant, becaue any class above level 10 with a good player can Solo Bronze with their eyes closed and their hotkeys down.  I frankly don't give a damn about your experiences on Bronze, Bronze is for newbs.

Silver and Gold is where the 'game' is at, and Charge-Nova needs timing and skill to pull off properly when there is more than a handful of enemies to be dealt with, just like any other character/class.

Modifié par Thoragoros, 01 mars 2012 - 05:52 .

[sy7ar]

Well, how about making the mini nova chance-dependent, say give it a 50%, or 25% then the next upgrade 50% to trigger a mini nova? I didn't choose the mini nova evolution so I know it's not easy to play (with full nova) especially on gold and its later waves, one wrong move and you're dead, I have to be extremely aware of everything around me in order to chain charge and nova, and decide whether or not to charge (since I have a window that I'm not immune to damage, even with 200% bonus) , dodge and take cover from time to time instead of spamming all the time. One good example would be one of my gold run I had the longest survival record that I didn't need revive for the first 9 waves, topped the score, and one bad move in wave 10 the whole team failed, and there is the high reward, but also high risk.

[AreleX]

fix nova glitch

leave nova alone otherwise. it's fine how it is.

[Butthead11]

G3rman wrote...

How about we not bother balancing it out at all since this isn't PvP and we share points? If your team-mates are overpowered killers you should be 1. Thanking them 2. Outkilling them 3. Joining them.

Stuff like this makes the game fun in Co-op, not worse.

Everytime i see ""Hurrr durr it ain't pvp so balance don't matter none" post i wanna slap their avatar silly. 

[FFLB]

ThePowerOfHAT wrote...

This actually mirrors my thoughts exactly.  If a "decent" (or, let's face it, most any Level 20) Vanguard can seem unstoppable on Bronze, that doesn't mean he'll have the same effect on Silver or Gold.  And I agree that the role of Vanguards should indeed be to draw enemy fire.  Hence why my first suggestion for changing the Nova ability, to me, seems very reasonable.  It would fit far more closely with what the purpose of the Vanguard as a class is, and in many ways - at least in my opinion - would make it more fun and interesting to play as.  Modifying Nova so that its effects are intended more for weakening enemies' attacks, movement speed, and/or shields/barriers would make it far more appropriate as a method of "tanking".  In its current form, it serves specifically as a high-damage ability, which seems odd to me considering that Vanguards already have Shockwave and Charge for that purpose.

Hell, in my experience, yes, the Charge/Nova combo is far less effective and arguably suicidal on higher difficulties, so why not consider the changes I've recommended as a way of actually making that a more viable tactic?  I think it's fair to assume that increasing Nova's effectiveness as a team-oriented, tanking-related ability rather than the direct damage ability it is now would actually be beneficial to Vanguard players, myself included.  I know I'd love for it to do something more than just barely stagger a shielded opponent.  Wouldn't we all?

In order for the Vanguard to draw aggro, she has to deal some damage so that enemies prioritize her over other squad members. Using an AoE ability that can potentially deal heavy damage to multiple enemies seems to aid in her role quite well, especially because it synergizes with Charge. Imagine trying to Charge and then Shockwave a group of enemies. You would probably be down before your Shockwave even starts up, due to the cooldown.

While your suggestion would be interesting, that would almost be like setting off a Warp-bomb in a group of enemies, making them more vulnerable to a cascade of biotic explosions. Wasn't your original intent to make Charge/Nova less spammable rather than more effective? Since your suggestion is a lingering biotic debuff, if they were not
made vulnerable to a biotic explosion, that would run counter to how biotic effects and
combos are setup for ME3.

Modifié par FFLB, 01 mars 2012 - 07:32 .

[CrazyCatDude]

ThePowerOfHAT wrote...

Simbacca wrote...

Yes a decent Vanguard will seem unstoppable on Bronze, a good Vanguard may seem unstoppable on Silver, but any nerfs (other than removing the nova cancel glitch which I believe serious players don't use/need) would cripple the role of the class on Gold.  And the role of the class is to draw aggro and disrupt the enemy AI of a smartly selected group of foes so the rest of squad can pick them off all around the Vanguard.  Anyone who can't get kills when running with a Vanguard on their squad on Silver/Gold is a bad player.  

This actually mirrors my thoughts exactly.  If a "decent" (or, let's face it, most any Level 20) Vanguard can seem unstoppable on Bronze, that doesn't mean he'll have the same effect on Silver or Gold.  And I agree that the role of Vanguards should indeed be to draw enemy fire.  Hence why my first suggestion for changing the Nova ability, to me, seems very reasonable.  It would fit far more closely with what the purpose of the Vanguard as a class is, and in many ways - at least in my opinion - would make it more fun and interesting to play as.  Modifying Nova so that its effects are intended more for weakening enemies' attacks, movement speed, and/or shields/barriers would make it far more appropriate as a method of "tanking".  In its current form, it serves specifically as a high-damage ability, which seems odd to me considering that Vanguards already have Shockwave and Charge for that purpose.

My proposal would not only make Nova a far more interesting and unique ability, but it would be far more appropriate for generally accepted role of the class.  In my opinion, that wouldn't be a "nerf" to the Vanguard class as a whole, but instead a way of tweaking it to make it stronger in its arguably intended purpose.



So many here seem intent on implying that we're all calling for a "nerf" to Vanguards, but in my opinion, that's not what anyone is asking for.  We're simply looking for a way to make the class more suited to its primary goal while also dealing with what I think most will agree is a major imbalance on the lowest difficulty setting.  And no, I don't think that the argument that Vanguards aren't nearly as powerful on Silver and Gold stands as a fair retort, because that's true of every class and every ability combo, and simply ignoring the imbalances present on Bronze difficulty don't make them any less present.

Hell, in my experience, yes, the Charge/Nova combo is far less effective and arguably suicidal on higher difficulties, so why not consider the changes I've recommended as a way of actually making that a more viable tactic?  I think it's fair to assume that increasing Nova's effectiveness as a team-oriented, tanking-related ability rather than the direct damage ability it is now would actually be beneficial to Vanguard players, myself included.  I know I'd love for it to do something more than just barely stagger a shielded opponent.  Wouldn't we all?

Because what you propose, removing the direct damage effect, adding a cooldown, and most especially, removing the barrier recharge buff from the Charge ability, would completely change the way vanguard play style in single player.  I love multiplayer.  I've had days where I sat down for a match, and looked up 8 hours later at 4 in the morning and gone "What the heck?"  It's fun.  But the moment they start changing the way my vanguard plays in Single Player because people are griping about "OMG VANGUARDS R OP!" in multiplayer is the moment I want multiplayer to die in a fire.

The Charge/Nova combo is the core of the class play style, much the way Charge/Shotgun was the core of the class in Mass Effect 2.  It's *fun* that way.

And no, don't even suggest making the powers work differently in Co-Op verses SP.  That always ends up being a total mess.  And I want to play a Vanguard in MP, not some class that has abilities with the same name, but works and plays completely differently.

If playing with vanguards is such a issue, get together a group of people and start a "no vanguards" team, and leave us crazy, suicidal SOB's to our Atlas charging ways.

[Fortack]

FFLB wrote...

In order for the Vanguard to draw aggro, she has to deal some damage so that enemies prioritize her over other squad members. Using an AoE ability that can potentially deal heavy damage to multiple enemies seems to aid in her role quite well, especially because it synergizes with Charge. Imagine trying to Charge and then Shockwave a group of enemies. You would probably be down before your Shockwave even starts up, due to the cooldown.

AFAIK nothing has changed. Enemy AI targets the nearest enemy in sight - like in ME2. Dishing out huge amounts of damage has no impact on their target priorities. The only advantage the Vanguard has in this regard is that they charge into a group of enemies which gets them in close making them the AI's primary target.

Shockwave is not a CQC ability. Using it at range, to disable one or two enemies, before charging in is a decent strategy. When you're in deep, it's suicidal (on gold) to use it though.

[Rogue Complex]

Ugh, I don't even want to get started on this topic.

[Cuthlan]

Rogue Complex wrote...

Ugh, I don't even want to get started on this topic.

Then why did you bump it back to the first page?

[Spartansfan8888]

Does the upgrade where your nova uses 50% of shields instead of 100% still do the full damage or just equivalent to what half your shields are?

[TehJumpingJawa]

Spartansfan8888 wrote...

Does the upgrade where your nova uses 50% of shields instead of 100% still do the full damage or just equivalent to what half your shields are?

Uses 50% less shield. Deals 40% less damage.

The two half-novas combined do 20% more damage than a single full-nova.