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[The Last Guardian]

yoshibb wrote...

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

Let me try and explain what the difference between actually sad and forced sad is:

I recently watched a movie called The Music Never Stops (spoilers if you never watched the movie and want to) In it the son has lost all memory and has basically become a zombie thanks to a brain tumor. The story is all about his father reconnecting with him through music that he hates because it is the only way to see his son come to life again and talk with him. In the end, his father takes him to a grateful dead concert in an effort to create a new memory with his father since music was his only connection to these memories. Afterwards, the father dies a few months later of a heart condition but at the funeral it's shown that the son remembers that concert with his father when a particular song is played. I cried my eyes out, this is actually sad.

Now imagine the father died right before the concert. Still sad right? Not in a good way but in a pointless way. Because you spent the whole movie watching these two try to rebuild a broken bond and in the end the father dies before he gets a chance to truly reconcile with his son. What would be the point of watching that movie? It's an epic waste of time and it makes you feel terrible after you leave the theater. This is forced sad.

 I can create a counter example so to speak. I'm natively russian, and we have a semi famous film (from the 80's). It's entitled "Red Day". It's about a army troop who were childhood friends, and took place during the battle of Stalingrad during 1943. You get to know all about the charcters, there past lives as childhood friends, there family, etc. You see how they fight tooth and nail. You see how they care for each other, like brothers. An in the end you get a feeling that they might survive, they might win. But they didn't. The film ends with all the characters lying face down in ditches defending there position till the last breath. Mud on there face, blood, cuts everywhere, a pile of dead. I know in the end Russia wins Stalingrad. But they didn't, they couldn't know. An the film asks the very question oof a character asking "did we win? I don't know."

They were dead. It was a bitter ending, yet it still made me feel because of everything that led up to the final encounter. 

 Granted, I know ME is different. You make choices and the fact that your choice doesn't lead to a more positive ending is a bit distraughting. I get that. 

 All I'm saying is that you can still have a negative bitter ending that still makes you feel like you didn't waste time in the process. 

See I get that but it's all about how things are set up. The thing about that movie I described is that it was all about a father and son reconciling. I builds up with some scary moments and you know that the father is going to die but that's not what it's about. The movie you described is a realistic war story. It's like if I went into Saving Private Ryan and expected everything to work out. I expect people to die and yet I'm still going to be sad cause it's a parallel to real life and I knew that going in.

It would be like if The Return of the Jedi ended with Luke going to the dark side and his friends and the rebels all being annihilated it wouldn't be dramatic or sad because it is not set up to be a realistic war story. It's a space adventure. In the same way, Mass Effect is not set up for a hopeless ending. Shepard has beaten all the odds and done the impossible before. For it just to suddenly become all horrible and dark, angers the audience, and it doesn't connect with them.

If they wanted this ending, basically they needed the situation to be hopeless from the start and Shepard falls apart more and more as time goes on. Shepard also really can't die and come back cause not only is it not realistic, but that implies some sort of triumph and hope. 

Basically you can't have happy, happy, sad. Storytelling just doesn't work that way. 

And I get that, I truly do. It's like a anti clamatic negative ending. It doesn't fit the plot scheme of what we would normally expect. An on paper, this ending sounds very disheartening. Shepard, like you said above, a character whose faced terrible odds and succeeded time and time again...it's strange not to see Shepard standing tall and victorious above all his enemies. It's weird, and like I said, I get that.

But should Shepards success dictate the 3rd's ending? In a way it's almost predictable (not that I would complain). To me the rumored negative ending is almost akin to reality in a way. For example, I had a childhood friend who was diagnosed with cancer. It seemed like the months and months of chemo was finally working. It seemed like the cancer was shrinking. I remember how we celebrated over drinks. How we laughed, we thought the worst was over. He faced remission, the cancer was gone. Life seemed finally back on track. I can't even describe how happy he was, how happy I was. But a few months later the cancer returned, and sadly it spread to the point where the doctors couldn't do anything anymore. He died 1 month later after that. 

 To me that sort of describes Mass Effect arch...Jubilation of escaping what seems like the unescapable, only to face the harsh and cold truth to the situation. 

To me, that's life for alot of us. 

 

[Texhnolyze101]

AlphaJarmel wrote...

I love the part where Joker and your crew leave you for dead and try to make a run for it only to get caught in the explosion from the Relays. Quitters never win.

I mean this makes perfect sense.

Do they just say "screw shep!" and try to leave or what?

[Kileyan]

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

Let me try and explain what the difference between actually sad and forced sad is:

I recently watched a movie called The Music Never Stops (spoilers if you never watched the movie and want to) In it the son has lost all memory and has basically become a zombie thanks to a brain tumor. The story is all about his father reconnecting with him through music that he hates because it is the only way to see his son come to life again and talk with him. In the end, his father takes him to a grateful dead concert in an effort to create a new memory with his father since music was his only connection to these memories. Afterwards, the father dies a few months later of a heart condition but at the funeral it's shown that the son remembers that concert with his father when a particular song is played. I cried my eyes out, this is actually sad.

Now imagine the father died right before the concert. Still sad right? Not in a good way but in a pointless way. Because you spent the whole movie watching these two try to rebuild a broken bond and in the end the father dies before he gets a chance to truly reconcile with his son. What would be the point of watching that movie? It's an epic waste of time and it makes you feel terrible after you leave the theater. This is forced sad.

 I can create a counter example so to speak. I'm natively russian, and we have a semi famous film (from the 80's). It's entitled "Red Day". It's about a army troop who were childhood friends, and took place during the battle of Stalingrad during 1943. You get to know all about the charcters, there past lives as childhood friends, there family, etc. You see how they fight tooth and nail. You see how they care for each other, like brothers. An in the end you get a feeling that they might survive, they might win. But they didn't. The film ends with all the characters lying face down in ditches defending there position till the last breath. Mud on there face, blood, cuts everywhere, a pile of dead. I know in the end Russia wins Stalingrad. But they didn't, they couldn't know. An the film asks the very question oof a character asking "did we win? I don't know."

They were dead. It was a bitter ending, yet it still made me feel because of everything that led up to the final encounter. 

 Granted, I know ME is different. You make choices and the fact that your choice doesn't lead to a more positive ending is a bit distraughting. I get that. 

 All I'm saying is that you can still have a negative bitter ending that still makes you feel like you didn't waste time in the process. 

I can see that could be a great film but it has nothing to do with Mass Effect 3 or the point being discussed. If Bioware wanted to have SHep and his crew laying down behind some waist high cover, all dead at the very end, with us, the audience knowing they won, that could be a cool ending, a sense of loss is needed.

In this game loss is apparently obvious and extreme, billions dead, civilizations gone forever, maybe races wiped out.

It maybe would have been better to wipe out Shep and his friends, that to have all that loss, then on top of that, add in the contrived part where Shep and buddies live but can never see each other again..........really in your mind that doesn't sound contrived?

[Elios]

i still stand by i thought there should be more clear cut ends
again a Humanity at the cost of the rest of the galaxy
and a Humanity gives all to save the rest of the galaxy
the fact that in all the endings the a MAJOR chunk of tech gets destroyed kinda kills it for me
yes i found losing said tech more disturbing then all of earth being destroyed

[SovereignWillReturn]

Elegana wrote...

MARIAAAA!

SAYINARA.

[The Last Guardian]

Kileyan wrote...

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

Let me try and explain what the difference between actually sad and forced sad is:

I recently watched a movie called The Music Never Stops (spoilers if you never watched the movie and want to) In it the son has lost all memory and has basically become a zombie thanks to a brain tumor. The story is all about his father reconnecting with him through music that he hates because it is the only way to see his son come to life again and talk with him. In the end, his father takes him to a grateful dead concert in an effort to create a new memory with his father since music was his only connection to these memories. Afterwards, the father dies a few months later of a heart condition but at the funeral it's shown that the son remembers that concert with his father when a particular song is played. I cried my eyes out, this is actually sad.

Now imagine the father died right before the concert. Still sad right? Not in a good way but in a pointless way. Because you spent the whole movie watching these two try to rebuild a broken bond and in the end the father dies before he gets a chance to truly reconcile with his son. What would be the point of watching that movie? It's an epic waste of time and it makes you feel terrible after you leave the theater. This is forced sad.

 I can create a counter example so to speak. I'm natively russian, and we have a semi famous film (from the 80's). It's entitled "Red Day". It's about a army troop who were childhood friends, and took place during the battle of Stalingrad during 1943. You get to know all about the charcters, there past lives as childhood friends, there family, etc. You see how they fight tooth and nail. You see how they care for each other, like brothers. An in the end you get a feeling that they might survive, they might win. But they didn't. The film ends with all the characters lying face down in ditches defending there position till the last breath. Mud on there face, blood, cuts everywhere, a pile of dead. I know in the end Russia wins Stalingrad. But they didn't, they couldn't know. An the film asks the very question oof a character asking "did we win? I don't know."

They were dead. It was a bitter ending, yet it still made me feel because of everything that led up to the final encounter. 

 Granted, I know ME is different. You make choices and the fact that your choice doesn't lead to a more positive ending is a bit distraughting. I get that. 

 All I'm saying is that you can still have a negative bitter ending that still makes you feel like you didn't waste time in the process. 

I can see that could be a great film but it has nothing to do with Mass Effect 3 or the point being discussed. If Bioware wanted to have SHep and his crew laying down behind some waist high cover, all dead at the very end, with us, the audience knowing they won, that could be a cool ending, a sense of loss is needed.

In this game loss is apparently obvious and extreme, billions dead, civilizations gone forever, maybe races wiped out.

It maybe would have been better to wipe out Shep and his friends, that to have all that loss, then on top of that, add in the contrived part where Shep and buddies live but can never see each other again..........really in your mind that doesn't sound contrived?

I don't know, I might be just weird but I look that type of ending. To me the expected would be a happy one, or a semi happy one with shepeard dying but the rest of humanity being saved. To me everything being completely hopeless sort of reminds me of The Game of Thrones novels. Very dark fantasy, brutal, and unforgiving. You expect one direction, but get another that you never would expect (like Eddard Stark being killed in the 1st novel/season, something you would never expect). 

 I don't know I like it. I like that darkness, and seems like a more realistic outcome that you would see in everyday life. 

 Not that it makes a better ending than a say a more happier one (like the one's you described), but I see it refreshing a strange sense. And I know it's not just me. Alot of my non hard core gamer friends (they play some games not many) who happen to love Mass Effect know about the ending and think it's quite awesome. 

Again I like it for my own reasons. 

[yoshibb]

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

See I get that but it's all about how things are set up. The thing about that movie I described is that it was all about a father and son reconciling. I builds up with some scary moments and you know that the father is going to die but that's not what it's about. The movie you described is a realistic war story. It's like if I went into Saving Private Ryan and expected everything to work out. I expect people to die and yet I'm still going to be sad cause it's a parallel to real life and I knew that going in.

It would be like if The Return of the Jedi ended with Luke going to the dark side and his friends and the rebels all being annihilated it wouldn't be dramatic or sad because it is not set up to be a realistic war story. It's a space adventure. In the same way, Mass Effect is not set up for a hopeless ending. Shepard has beaten all the odds and done the impossible before. For it just to suddenly become all horrible and dark, angers the audience, and it doesn't connect with them.

If they wanted this ending, basically they needed the situation to be hopeless from the start and Shepard falls apart more and more as time goes on. Shepard also really can't die and come back cause not only is it not realistic, but that implies some sort of triumph and hope. 

Basically you can't have happy, happy, sad. Storytelling just doesn't work that way. 

And I get that, I truly do. It's like a anti clamatic negative ending. It doesn't fit the plot scheme of what we would normally expect. An on paper, this ending sounds very disheartening. Shepard, like you said above, a character whose faced terrible odds and succeeded time and time again...it's strange not to see Shepard standing tall and victorious above all his enemies. It's weird, and like I said, I get that.

But should Shepards success dictate the 3rd's ending? In a way it's almost predictable (not that I would complain). To me the rumored negative ending is almost akin to reality in a way. For example, I had a childhood friend who was diagnosed with cancer. It seemed like the months and months of chemo was finally working. It seemed like the cancer was shrinking. I remember how we celebrated over drinks. How we laughed, we thought the worst was over. He faced remission, the cancer was gone. Life seemed finally back on track. I can't even describe how happy he was, how happy I was. But a few months later the cancer returned, and sadly it spread to the point where the doctors couldn't do anything anymore. He died 1 month later after that. 

 To me that sort of describes Mass Effect arch...Jubilation of escaping what seems like the unescapable, only to face the harsh and cold truth to the situation. 

To me, that's life for alot of us. 

But it's not life, it's a game. What is entertainment for? Is it to remind us about what sucks in the world? There is a reason this ending doesn't happen often because it depresses people. If I wanted reality I'd go take a visit to Haiti, I'd put the news on, I'd go to an orphanage. 

Entertainment:
The action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment.

Why would I spend hundreds of hours on a series that just makes me feel miserable at the end? Congratulations, you did nothing to change the destiny about the main character and all his friends! Thanks for playing! Also, your wife is cheating on you with your brother! Haha, reality is great isn't it?

Again not a documentary, not an autobiography, not an oscar film, not a piece of non fiction.

It's a space adventure video game.

[Dasher1010]

yoshibb wrote...

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

See I get that but it's all about how things are set up. The thing about that movie I described is that it was all about a father and son reconciling. I builds up with some scary moments and you know that the father is going to die but that's not what it's about. The movie you described is a realistic war story. It's like if I went into Saving Private Ryan and expected everything to work out. I expect people to die and yet I'm still going to be sad cause it's a parallel to real life and I knew that going in.

It would be like if The Return of the Jedi ended with Luke going to the dark side and his friends and the rebels all being annihilated it wouldn't be dramatic or sad because it is not set up to be a realistic war story. It's a space adventure. In the same way, Mass Effect is not set up for a hopeless ending. Shepard has beaten all the odds and done the impossible before. For it just to suddenly become all horrible and dark, angers the audience, and it doesn't connect with them.

If they wanted this ending, basically they needed the situation to be hopeless from the start and Shepard falls apart more and more as time goes on. Shepard also really can't die and come back cause not only is it not realistic, but that implies some sort of triumph and hope. 

Basically you can't have happy, happy, sad. Storytelling just doesn't work that way. 

And I get that, I truly do. It's like a anti clamatic negative ending. It doesn't fit the plot scheme of what we would normally expect. An on paper, this ending sounds very disheartening. Shepard, like you said above, a character whose faced terrible odds and succeeded time and time again...it's strange not to see Shepard standing tall and victorious above all his enemies. It's weird, and like I said, I get that.

But should Shepards success dictate the 3rd's ending? In a way it's almost predictable (not that I would complain). To me the rumored negative ending is almost akin to reality in a way. For example, I had a childhood friend who was diagnosed with cancer. It seemed like the months and months of chemo was finally working. It seemed like the cancer was shrinking. I remember how we celebrated over drinks. How we laughed, we thought the worst was over. He faced remission, the cancer was gone. Life seemed finally back on track. I can't even describe how happy he was, how happy I was. But a few months later the cancer returned, and sadly it spread to the point where the doctors couldn't do anything anymore. He died 1 month later after that. 

 To me that sort of describes Mass Effect arch...Jubilation of escaping what seems like the unescapable, only to face the harsh and cold truth to the situation. 

To me, that's life for alot of us. 

But it's not life, it's a game. What is entertainment for? Is it to remind us about what sucks in the world? There is a reason this ending doesn't happen often because it depresses people. If I wanted reality I'd go take a visit to Haiti, I'd put the news on, I'd go to an orphanage. 

Entertainment:
The action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment.

Why would I spend hundreds of hours on a series that just makes me feel miserable at the end? Congratulations, you did nothing to change the destiny about the main character and all his friends! Thanks for playing! Also, your wife is cheating on you with your brother! Haha, reality is great isn't it?

Again not a documentary, not an autobiography, not an oscar film, not a piece of non fiction.

It's a space adventure video game.

This. Making things grimdark for the sake of being grimdark is idiotic, especially if players have invested hundreds of hours into these characters.

[The Last Guardian]

yoshibb wrote...

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

See I get that but it's all about how things are set up. The thing about that movie I described is that it was all about a father and son reconciling. I builds up with some scary moments and you know that the father is going to die but that's not what it's about. The movie you described is a realistic war story. It's like if I went into Saving Private Ryan and expected everything to work out. I expect people to die and yet I'm still going to be sad cause it's a parallel to real life and I knew that going in.

It would be like if The Return of the Jedi ended with Luke going to the dark side and his friends and the rebels all being annihilated it wouldn't be dramatic or sad because it is not set up to be a realistic war story. It's a space adventure. In the same way, Mass Effect is not set up for a hopeless ending. Shepard has beaten all the odds and done the impossible before. For it just to suddenly become all horrible and dark, angers the audience, and it doesn't connect with them.

If they wanted this ending, basically they needed the situation to be hopeless from the start and Shepard falls apart more and more as time goes on. Shepard also really can't die and come back cause not only is it not realistic, but that implies some sort of triumph and hope. 

Basically you can't have happy, happy, sad. Storytelling just doesn't work that way. 

And I get that, I truly do. It's like a anti clamatic negative ending. It doesn't fit the plot scheme of what we would normally expect. An on paper, this ending sounds very disheartening. Shepard, like you said above, a character whose faced terrible odds and succeeded time and time again...it's strange not to see Shepard standing tall and victorious above all his enemies. It's weird, and like I said, I get that.

But should Shepards success dictate the 3rd's ending? In a way it's almost predictable (not that I would complain). To me the rumored negative ending is almost akin to reality in a way. For example, I had a childhood friend who was diagnosed with cancer. It seemed like the months and months of chemo was finally working. It seemed like the cancer was shrinking. I remember how we celebrated over drinks. How we laughed, we thought the worst was over. He faced remission, the cancer was gone. Life seemed finally back on track. I can't even describe how happy he was, how happy I was. But a few months later the cancer returned, and sadly it spread to the point where the doctors couldn't do anything anymore. He died 1 month later after that. 

 To me that sort of describes Mass Effect arch...Jubilation of escaping what seems like the unescapable, only to face the harsh and cold truth to the situation. 

To me, that's life for alot of us. 

But it's not life, it's a game. What is entertainment for? Is it to remind us about what sucks in the world? There is a reason this ending doesn't happen often because it depresses people. If I wanted reality I'd go take a visit to Haiti, I'd put the news on, I'd go to an orphanage. 

Entertainment:
The action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment.

Why would I spend hundreds of hours on a series that just makes me feel miserable at the end? Congratulations, you did nothing to change the destiny about the main character and all his friends! Thanks for playing! Also, your wife is cheating on you with your brother! Haha, reality is great isn't it?

Again not a documentary, not an autobiography, not an oscar film, not a piece of non fiction.

It's a space adventure video game.

Modifié par The Last Guardian, 01 mars 2012 - 06:33 .

[The Last Guardian]

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

See I get that but it's all about how things are set up. The thing about that movie I described is that it was all about a father and son reconciling. I builds up with some scary moments and you know that the father is going to die but that's not what it's about. The movie you described is a realistic war story. It's like if I went into Saving Private Ryan and expected everything to work out. I expect people to die and yet I'm still going to be sad cause it's a parallel to real life and I knew that going in.

It would be like if The Return of the Jedi ended with Luke going to the dark side and his friends and the rebels all being annihilated it wouldn't be dramatic or sad because it is not set up to be a realistic war story. It's a space adventure. In the same way, Mass Effect is not set up for a hopeless ending. Shepard has beaten all the odds and done the impossible before. For it just to suddenly become all horrible and dark, angers the audience, and it doesn't connect with them.

If they wanted this ending, basically they needed the situation to be hopeless from the start and Shepard falls apart more and more as time goes on. Shepard also really can't die and come back cause not only is it not realistic, but that implies some sort of triumph and hope. 

Basically you can't have happy, happy, sad. Storytelling just doesn't work that way. 

And I get that, I truly do. It's like a anti clamatic negative ending. It doesn't fit the plot scheme of what we would normally expect. An on paper, this ending sounds very disheartening. Shepard, like you said above, a character whose faced terrible odds and succeeded time and time again...it's strange not to see Shepard standing tall and victorious above all his enemies. It's weird, and like I said, I get that.

But should Shepards success dictate the 3rd's ending? In a way it's almost predictable (not that I would complain). To me the rumored negative ending is almost akin to reality in a way. For example, I had a childhood friend who was diagnosed with cancer. It seemed like the months and months of chemo was finally working. It seemed like the cancer was shrinking. I remember how we celebrated over drinks. How we laughed, we thought the worst was over. He faced remission, the cancer was gone. Life seemed finally back on track. I can't even describe how happy he was, how happy I was. But a few months later the cancer returned, and sadly it spread to the point where the doctors couldn't do anything anymore. He died 1 month later after that. 

 To me that sort of describes Mass Effect arch...Jubilation of escaping what seems like the unescapable, only to face the harsh and cold truth to the situation. 

To me, that's life for alot of us. 

But it's not life, it's a game. What is entertainment for? Is it to remind us about what sucks in the world? There is a reason this ending doesn't happen often because it depresses people. If I wanted reality I'd go take a visit to Haiti, I'd put the news on, I'd go to an orphanage. 

Entertainment:
The action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment.

Why would I spend hundreds of hours on a series that just makes me feel miserable at the end? Congratulations, you did nothing to change the destiny about the main character and all his friends! Thanks for playing! Also, your wife is cheating on you with your brother! Haha, reality is great isn't it?

Again not a documentary, not an autobiography, not an oscar film, not a piece of non fiction.

It's a space adventure video game.

Why is a video game, any different than anything you mentioned above. What differs a film from a video game? Gameplay, choices, customization,  a few things, but strip that away then you have 2 very similar things.


To me games are more than just "oh, it's just a video game." Games have affected my life, equally as some films (The Thin Red Life, The Tree of Life, The Fountain, some of my most cherised films).

 I recently played a game on steam, it was called Dear Esthe. a 2 hour game, but was probably the best game I've played in the past few years. It was like interactive poetry. Some might say in pretentous, and contrived, and silly. But I felt moved by it. 

I remember when I played Ico, or Shadow of the Collus, or even Red Dead Redemption. The emotion I felt it was parallel to what I've experienced in films and books. They've touched me. Not all games can do this. Hell 90% of the games are nothing but drivel imo. But there are certain games, those few games, that touch you and move you like none other. 

I believe that games can definitely explore mature subject matter. It's just publishers are to afraid, and the money and costs of development are to risky. 

Again, it seems like to you it's just a video game, a toy of sorts that you play for a set of hours. But to me it's more than that. 

[Kileyan]

The Last Guardian wrote...

. To me everything being completely hopeless sort of reminds me of The Game of Thrones novels. Very dark fantasy, brutal, and unforgiving. You expect one direction, but get another that you never would expect (like Eddard Stark being killed in the 1st novel/season, something you would never expect). 

 I don't know I like it. I like that darkness, and seems like a more realistic outcome that you would see in everyday life. 

I want to focus on this. The Game of Thrones novels are a good example of great reads, but games I wouldn't want to play. Bad stuff happens to good and not so good people. They are very good reads, but as a game they would be annoying. As I am reading those novels I can see the mistakes those doomed people are making. I have no control, so I grit my teeth, read the next page, so and so dies or losed political power, whatever.

Games are different, if that was game, where I was a player character who got to know those same people in that same fictional world, I would be annoyed if I could see those exact same situations unfolding, and the writers at Bioware left me powerless to act, over and over again. It is in my power to stop these things from happening, but i must remain silent because their writer couldn't allow for any deviation from the plot.


Short version, movies and books can get away with leading you up to horrible things that you can see coming, you are just along for the ride.

Game should give you a bit of control, Bioware lately with their focus on expensive cinematic presentation has cut down a lot on the player control and choices, these latest leaks may say they went a bit too far in taking control away from players.

I think Bioware is more interested in making movies, they should suck it up, and do a Heavy Rain style game, it is where their heart is at, IMHO.

[The Last Guardian]

Kileyan wrote...

The Last Guardian wrote...

. To me everything being completely hopeless sort of reminds me of The Game of Thrones novels. Very dark fantasy, brutal, and unforgiving. You expect one direction, but get another that you never would expect (like Eddard Stark being killed in the 1st novel/season, something you would never expect). 

 I don't know I like it. I like that darkness, and seems like a more realistic outcome that you would see in everyday life. 

I want to focus on this. The Game of Thrones novels are a good example of great reads, but games I wouldn't want to play. Bad stuff happens to good and not so good people. They are very good reads, but as a game they would be annoying. As I am reading those novels I can see the mistakes those doomed people are making. I have no control, so I grit my teeth, read the next page, so and so dies or losed political power, whatever.

Games are different, if that was game, where I was a player character who got to know those same people in that same fictional world, I would be annoyed if I could see those exact same situations unfolding, and the writers at Bioware left me powerless to act, over and over again. It is in my power to stop these things from happening, but i must remain silent because their writer couldn't allow for any deviation from the plot.


Short version, movies and books can get away with leading you up to horrible things that you can see coming, you are just along for the ride.

Game should give you a bit of control, Bioware lately with their focus on expensive cinematic presentation has cut down a lot on the player control and choices, these latest leaks may say they went a bit too far in taking control away from players.

I think Bioware is more interested in making movies, they should suck it up, and do a Heavy Rain style game, it is where their heart is at, IMHO.

 I agree, but as games evolve shouldn't the narratives and plots evolve as well? To me it sounds like a interesting narrative experiment that not many games have attempted to do (i acutally can't recall any endings that end like this).

[yoshibb]

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

See I get that but it's all about how things are set up. The thing about that movie I described is that it was all about a father and son reconciling. I builds up with some scary moments and you know that the father is going to die but that's not what it's about. The movie you described is a realistic war story. It's like if I went into Saving Private Ryan and expected everything to work out. I expect people to die and yet I'm still going to be sad cause it's a parallel to real life and I knew that going in.

It would be like if The Return of the Jedi ended with Luke going to the dark side and his friends and the rebels all being annihilated it wouldn't be dramatic or sad because it is not set up to be a realistic war story. It's a space adventure. In the same way, Mass Effect is not set up for a hopeless ending. Shepard has beaten all the odds and done the impossible before. For it just to suddenly become all horrible and dark, angers the audience, and it doesn't connect with them.

If they wanted this ending, basically they needed the situation to be hopeless from the start and Shepard falls apart more and more as time goes on. Shepard also really can't die and come back cause not only is it not realistic, but that implies some sort of triumph and hope. 

Basically you can't have happy, happy, sad. Storytelling just doesn't work that way. 

And I get that, I truly do. It's like a anti clamatic negative ending. It doesn't fit the plot scheme of what we would normally expect. An on paper, this ending sounds very disheartening. Shepard, like you said above, a character whose faced terrible odds and succeeded time and time again...it's strange not to see Shepard standing tall and victorious above all his enemies. It's weird, and like I said, I get that.

But should Shepards success dictate the 3rd's ending? In a way it's almost predictable (not that I would complain). To me the rumored negative ending is almost akin to reality in a way. For example, I had a childhood friend who was diagnosed with cancer. It seemed like the months and months of chemo was finally working. It seemed like the cancer was shrinking. I remember how we celebrated over drinks. How we laughed, we thought the worst was over. He faced remission, the cancer was gone. Life seemed finally back on track. I can't even describe how happy he was, how happy I was. But a few months later the cancer returned, and sadly it spread to the point where the doctors couldn't do anything anymore. He died 1 month later after that. 

 To me that sort of describes Mass Effect arch...Jubilation of escaping what seems like the unescapable, only to face the harsh and cold truth to the situation. 

To me, that's life for alot of us. 

But it's not life, it's a game. What is entertainment for? Is it to remind us about what sucks in the world? There is a reason this ending doesn't happen often because it depresses people. If I wanted reality I'd go take a visit to Haiti, I'd put the news on, I'd go to an orphanage. 

Entertainment:
The action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment.

Why would I spend hundreds of hours on a series that just makes me feel miserable at the end? Congratulations, you did nothing to change the destiny about the main character and all his friends! Thanks for playing! Also, your wife is cheating on you with your brother! Haha, reality is great isn't it?

Again not a documentary, not an autobiography, not an oscar film, not a piece of non fiction.

It's a space adventure video game.

Why is a video game, any different than anything you mentioned above. What differs a film from a video game? Gameplay, choices, customization,  a few things, but strip that away then you have 2 very similar things.


To me games are more than just "oh, it's just a video game." Games have affected my life, equally as some films (The Thin Red Life, The Tree of Life, The Fountain, some of my most cherised films).

 I recently played a game on steam, it was called Dear Esthe. a 2 hour game, but was probably the best game I've played in the past few years. It was like interactive poetry. Some might say in pretentous, and contrived, and silly. But I felt moved by it. 

I remember when I played Ico, or Shadow of the Collus, or even Red Dead Redemption. The emotion I felt it was parallel to what I've experienced in films and books. They've touched me. Not all games can do this. Hell 90% of the games are nothing but drivel imo. But there are certain games, those few games, that touch you and move you like none other. 

I believe that games can definitely explore mature subject matter. It's just publishers are to afraid, and the money and costs of development are to risky. 

Again, it seems like to you it's just a video game, a toy of sorts that you play for a set of hours. But to me it's more than that. 

There are also things called genres. For instance, I don't expect a romantic comedy to end with the couple stabbing each other to death. I also don't expect to see Jason picking flowers with his victims in a horror movie. 

Mass Effect is built and marketed as a Space Choose Your Own Adventure game. You can't suddenly make it a study on realism and the hopelessness of life at the end of the series. If they want to do it in another game and build it properly then more power to them. But you can't tack it on to a series that has a totally different established tone. That's just insulting to the people who do it the right way.

Modifié par yoshibb, 01 mars 2012 - 06:41 .

[The Last Guardian]

yoshibb wrote...

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

See I get that but it's all about how things are set up. The thing about that movie I described is that it was all about a father and son reconciling. I builds up with some scary moments and you know that the father is going to die but that's not what it's about. The movie you described is a realistic war story. It's like if I went into Saving Private Ryan and expected everything to work out. I expect people to die and yet I'm still going to be sad cause it's a parallel to real life and I knew that going in.

It would be like if The Return of the Jedi ended with Luke going to the dark side and his friends and the rebels all being annihilated it wouldn't be dramatic or sad because it is not set up to be a realistic war story. It's a space adventure. In the same way, Mass Effect is not set up for a hopeless ending. Shepard has beaten all the odds and done the impossible before. For it just to suddenly become all horrible and dark, angers the audience, and it doesn't connect with them.

If they wanted this ending, basically they needed the situation to be hopeless from the start and Shepard falls apart more and more as time goes on. Shepard also really can't die and come back cause not only is it not realistic, but that implies some sort of triumph and hope. 

Basically you can't have happy, happy, sad. Storytelling just doesn't work that way. 

And I get that, I truly do. It's like a anti clamatic negative ending. It doesn't fit the plot scheme of what we would normally expect. An on paper, this ending sounds very disheartening. Shepard, like you said above, a character whose faced terrible odds and succeeded time and time again...it's strange not to see Shepard standing tall and victorious above all his enemies. It's weird, and like I said, I get that.

But should Shepards success dictate the 3rd's ending? In a way it's almost predictable (not that I would complain). To me the rumored negative ending is almost akin to reality in a way. For example, I had a childhood friend who was diagnosed with cancer. It seemed like the months and months of chemo was finally working. It seemed like the cancer was shrinking. I remember how we celebrated over drinks. How we laughed, we thought the worst was over. He faced remission, the cancer was gone. Life seemed finally back on track. I can't even describe how happy he was, how happy I was. But a few months later the cancer returned, and sadly it spread to the point where the doctors couldn't do anything anymore. He died 1 month later after that. 

 To me that sort of describes Mass Effect arch...Jubilation of escaping what seems like the unescapable, only to face the harsh and cold truth to the situation. 

To me, that's life for alot of us. 

But it's not life, it's a game. What is entertainment for? Is it to remind us about what sucks in the world? There is a reason this ending doesn't happen often because it depresses people. If I wanted reality I'd go take a visit to Haiti, I'd put the news on, I'd go to an orphanage. 

Entertainment:
The action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment.

Why would I spend hundreds of hours on a series that just makes me feel miserable at the end? Congratulations, you did nothing to change the destiny about the main character and all his friends! Thanks for playing! Also, your wife is cheating on you with your brother! Haha, reality is great isn't it?

Again not a documentary, not an autobiography, not an oscar film, not a piece of non fiction.

It's a space adventure video game.

Why is a video game, any different than anything you mentioned above. What differs a film from a video game? Gameplay, choices, customization,  a few things, but strip that away then you have 2 very similar things.


To me games are more than just "oh, it's just a video game." Games have affected my life, equally as some films (The Thin Red Life, The Tree of Life, The Fountain, some of my most cherised films).

 I recently played a game on steam, it was called Dear Esthe. a 2 hour game, but was probably the best game I've played in the past few years. It was like interactive poetry. Some might say in pretentous, and contrived, and silly. But I felt moved by it. 

I remember when I played Ico, or Shadow of the Collus, or even Red Dead Redemption. The emotion I felt it was parallel to what I've experienced in films and books. They've touched me. Not all games can do this. Hell 90% of the games are nothing but drivel imo. But there are certain games, those few games, that touch you and move you like none other. 

I believe that games can definitely explore mature subject matter. It's just publishers are to afraid, and the money and costs of development are to risky. 

Again, it seems like to you it's just a video game, a toy of sorts that you play for a set of hours. But to me it's more than that. 

There are also things called genres. For instance, I don't expect a romantic comedy to end with the couple stabbing each other to death. I also don't expect to see Jason picking flowers with his victims in a horror movie. 

Mass Effect is built and marketed as a Space Choose Your Own Adventure game. You can't suddenly make it a study on realism and the hopelessness of life at the end of the series. If they want to do it in another game and build it properly then more power to them. But you can't tack it on to a series that has a totally different established tone. That's just insulting to the people who do it the right way.

How is it a "Space Choose your own adventure game"? It's no different than other rpgs out there with a set amount of endings based on the players choices...It's a Sci-Fi game that has the same tone as Battle Star Galatica in my opinion. It takes itself serious, and dwells with various themes. 

 To me it's more than simply a choose your own adventure game, but whatever. 

[The Last Guardian]

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

See I get that but it's all about how things are set up. The thing about that movie I described is that it was all about a father and son reconciling. I builds up with some scary moments and you know that the father is going to die but that's not what it's about. The movie you described is a realistic war story. It's like if I went into Saving Private Ryan and expected everything to work out. I expect people to die and yet I'm still going to be sad cause it's a parallel to real life and I knew that going in.

It would be like if The Return of the Jedi ended with Luke going to the dark side and his friends and the rebels all being annihilated it wouldn't be dramatic or sad because it is not set up to be a realistic war story. It's a space adventure. In the same way, Mass Effect is not set up for a hopeless ending. Shepard has beaten all the odds and done the impossible before. For it just to suddenly become all horrible and dark, angers the audience, and it doesn't connect with them.

If they wanted this ending, basically they needed the situation to be hopeless from the start and Shepard falls apart more and more as time goes on. Shepard also really can't die and come back cause not only is it not realistic, but that implies some sort of triumph and hope. 

Basically you can't have happy, happy, sad. Storytelling just doesn't work that way. 

And I get that, I truly do. It's like a anti clamatic negative ending. It doesn't fit the plot scheme of what we would normally expect. An on paper, this ending sounds very disheartening. Shepard, like you said above, a character whose faced terrible odds and succeeded time and time again...it's strange not to see Shepard standing tall and victorious above all his enemies. It's weird, and like I said, I get that.

But should Shepards success dictate the 3rd's ending? In a way it's almost predictable (not that I would complain). To me the rumored negative ending is almost akin to reality in a way. For example, I had a childhood friend who was diagnosed with cancer. It seemed like the months and months of chemo was finally working. It seemed like the cancer was shrinking. I remember how we celebrated over drinks. How we laughed, we thought the worst was over. He faced remission, the cancer was gone. Life seemed finally back on track. I can't even describe how happy he was, how happy I was. But a few months later the cancer returned, and sadly it spread to the point where the doctors couldn't do anything anymore. He died 1 month later after that. 

 To me that sort of describes Mass Effect arch...Jubilation of escaping what seems like the unescapable, only to face the harsh and cold truth to the situation. 

To me, that's life for alot of us. 

But it's not life, it's a game. What is entertainment for? Is it to remind us about what sucks in the world? There is a reason this ending doesn't happen often because it depresses people. If I wanted reality I'd go take a visit to Haiti, I'd put the news on, I'd go to an orphanage. 

Entertainment:
The action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment.

Why would I spend hundreds of hours on a series that just makes me feel miserable at the end? Congratulations, you did nothing to change the destiny about the main character and all his friends! Thanks for playing! Also, your wife is cheating on you with your brother! Haha, reality is great isn't it?

Again not a documentary, not an autobiography, not an oscar film, not a piece of non fiction.

It's a space adventure video game.

Why is a video game, any different than anything you mentioned above. What differs a film from a video game? Gameplay, choices, customization,  a few things, but strip that away then you have 2 very similar things.


To me games are more than just "oh, it's just a video game." Games have affected my life, equally as some films (The Thin Red Life, The Tree of Life, The Fountain, some of my most cherised films).

 I recently played a game on steam, it was called Dear Esthe. a 2 hour game, but was probably the best game I've played in the past few years. It was like interactive poetry. Some might say in pretentous, and contrived, and silly. But I felt moved by it. 

I remember when I played Ico, or Shadow of the Collus, or even Red Dead Redemption. The emotion I felt it was parallel to what I've experienced in films and books. They've touched me. Not all games can do this. Hell 90% of the games are nothing but drivel imo. But there are certain games, those few games, that touch you and move you like none other. 

I believe that games can definitely explore mature subject matter. It's just publishers are to afraid, and the money and costs of development are to risky. 

Again, it seems like to you it's just a video game, a toy of sorts that you play for a set of hours. But to me it's more than that. 

There are also things called genres. For instance, I don't expect a romantic comedy to end with the couple stabbing each other to death. I also don't expect to see Jason picking flowers with his victims in a horror movie. 

Mass Effect is built and marketed as a Space Choose Your Own Adventure game. You can't suddenly make it a study on realism and the hopelessness of life at the end of the series. If they want to do it in another game and build it properly then more power to them. But you can't tack it on to a series that has a totally different established tone. That's just insulting to the people who do it the right way.

You say genre's? Well isn't mass effect a Sci-Fi space opera? Or that's how many jounralists have labeled the game for the past 4 years.  Also how is it a "Space Choose your own adventure game"? It's no different than other rpgs out there with a set amount of endings based on the players choices...It's a Sci-Fi game that has the same tone as Battle Star Galatica in my opinion. It takes itself serious, and dwells with various themes. 

 To me it's more than simply a choose your own adventure game, but whatever. 

[Dasher1010]

yoshibb wrote...

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

The Last Guardian wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

See I get that but it's all about how things are set up. The thing about that movie I described is that it was all about a father and son reconciling. I builds up with some scary moments and you know that the father is going to die but that's not what it's about. The movie you described is a realistic war story. It's like if I went into Saving Private Ryan and expected everything to work out. I expect people to die and yet I'm still going to be sad cause it's a parallel to real life and I knew that going in.

It would be like if The Return of the Jedi ended with Luke going to the dark side and his friends and the rebels all being annihilated it wouldn't be dramatic or sad because it is not set up to be a realistic war story. It's a space adventure. In the same way, Mass Effect is not set up for a hopeless ending. Shepard has beaten all the odds and done the impossible before. For it just to suddenly become all horrible and dark, angers the audience, and it doesn't connect with them.

If they wanted this ending, basically they needed the situation to be hopeless from the start and Shepard falls apart more and more as time goes on. Shepard also really can't die and come back cause not only is it not realistic, but that implies some sort of triumph and hope. 

Basically you can't have happy, happy, sad. Storytelling just doesn't work that way. 

And I get that, I truly do. It's like a anti clamatic negative ending. It doesn't fit the plot scheme of what we would normally expect. An on paper, this ending sounds very disheartening. Shepard, like you said above, a character whose faced terrible odds and succeeded time and time again...it's strange not to see Shepard standing tall and victorious above all his enemies. It's weird, and like I said, I get that.

But should Shepards success dictate the 3rd's ending? In a way it's almost predictable (not that I would complain). To me the rumored negative ending is almost akin to reality in a way. For example, I had a childhood friend who was diagnosed with cancer. It seemed like the months and months of chemo was finally working. It seemed like the cancer was shrinking. I remember how we celebrated over drinks. How we laughed, we thought the worst was over. He faced remission, the cancer was gone. Life seemed finally back on track. I can't even describe how happy he was, how happy I was. But a few months later the cancer returned, and sadly it spread to the point where the doctors couldn't do anything anymore. He died 1 month later after that. 

 To me that sort of describes Mass Effect arch...Jubilation of escaping what seems like the unescapable, only to face the harsh and cold truth to the situation. 

To me, that's life for alot of us. 

But it's not life, it's a game. What is entertainment for? Is it to remind us about what sucks in the world? There is a reason this ending doesn't happen often because it depresses people. If I wanted reality I'd go take a visit to Haiti, I'd put the news on, I'd go to an orphanage. 

Entertainment:
The action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment.

Why would I spend hundreds of hours on a series that just makes me feel miserable at the end? Congratulations, you did nothing to change the destiny about the main character and all his friends! Thanks for playing! Also, your wife is cheating on you with your brother! Haha, reality is great isn't it?

Again not a documentary, not an autobiography, not an oscar film, not a piece of non fiction.

It's a space adventure video game.

Why is a video game, any different than anything you mentioned above. What differs a film from a video game? Gameplay, choices, customization,  a few things, but strip that away then you have 2 very similar things.


To me games are more than just "oh, it's just a video game." Games have affected my life, equally as some films (The Thin Red Life, The Tree of Life, The Fountain, some of my most cherised films).

 I recently played a game on steam, it was called Dear Esthe. a 2 hour game, but was probably the best game I've played in the past few years. It was like interactive poetry. Some might say in pretentous, and contrived, and silly. But I felt moved by it. 

I remember when I played Ico, or Shadow of the Collus, or even Red Dead Redemption. The emotion I felt it was parallel to what I've experienced in films and books. They've touched me. Not all games can do this. Hell 90% of the games are nothing but drivel imo. But there are certain games, those few games, that touch you and move you like none other. 

I believe that games can definitely explore mature subject matter. It's just publishers are to afraid, and the money and costs of development are to risky. 

Again, it seems like to you it's just a video game, a toy of sorts that you play for a set of hours. But to me it's more than that. 

There are also things called genres. For instance, I don't expect a romantic comedy to end with the couple stabbing each other to death. I also don't expect to see Jason picking flowers with his victims in a horror movie. 

Mass Effect is built and marketed as a Space Choose Your Own Adventure game. You can't suddenly make it a study on realism and the hopelessness of life at the end of the series. If they want to do it in another game and build it properly then more power to them. But you can't tack it on to a series that has a totally different established tone. That's just insulting to the people who do it the right way.

I agree.

[Lotion Soronarr]

yoshibb wrote...
It would be like if The Return of the Jedi ended with Luke going to the dark side and his friends and the rebels all being annihilated it wouldn't be dramatic or sad because it is not set up to be a realistic war story. It's a space adventure. In the same way, Mass Effect is not set up for a hopeless ending. Shepard has beaten all the odds and done the impossible before. For it just to suddenly become all horrible and dark, angers the audience, and it doesn't connect with them.

If they wanted this ending, basically they needed the situation to be hopeless from the start and Shepard falls apart more and more as time goes on. Shepard also really can't die and come back cause not only is it not realistic, but that implies some sort of triumph and hope. 

Basically you can't have happy, happy, sad. Storytelling just doesn't work that way. 

Yes you can. It all depends how it's done.

Shepard beaten the odds before - that doesn't mean he'll continue to do so, against ever bigger and bigegr odds.
That's just going the opposite direction of extreemly silly.

Hopeless ending, Shepard dying alone - nothing of it is "bad" really.

It's the supposed execution. Like the New Strar Trek movie, it leaves too many !"WTF???" to be a satisfactory experience. Not because Shep dies.

[Lotion Soronarr]

yoshibb wrote...
There are also things called genres. For instance, I don't expect a romantic comedy to end with the couple stabbing each other to death. I also don't expect to see Jason picking flowers with his victims in a horror movie. 

Mass Effect is built and marketed as a Space Choose Your Own Adventure game. You can't suddenly make it a study on realism and the hopelessness of life at the end of the series. If they want to do it in another game and build it properly then more power to them. But you can't tack it on to a series that has a totally different established tone. That's just insulting to the people who do it the right way.

The tone is not "insulting".

The series CAN change in tone, especilly if the story calls for it. And indeed, there were tonal changes between ME1 and ME2 and ME3. and I bet you can find peopel who will disagree wiht you waht the tone of the series was.

[Sashimi_taco]

FallTooDovahkiin wrote...

Olueq wrote...

We are clearly getting trolled.

lolololol I believe that has been happening for awhile now.

I have been hoping for this too, but with more and more videos of the game ending being released i'm scared.

Hold me!

[Mr_Dots]

 I haven't seen Mass Effect 3's endings, but Gears of War 3 had a terrible ending. Please tell me we expect more from video games than that ending. 

[Subject One]

Now an ending where Shepard can't survive but he ends up being visited by his LI at the end of the game looking over his grave and if female is pregnant. that would be a lot more rewarding than

WOW. Originality at its best

[Ksandor]

1) Bioware does not want people ask for more Shepard Mass Effect games. This is why they do not allow a happy ending.

2) They want to reboot the series like Hollywood movies do. Probably an FTL only universe with a "rebuild the relays" theme MMORPG with modular SWTOR type cliche story missons.

What the lead writer says is pure damage control. Journey matters but ending matters too. I do not believe in cultural relativism. Ending matters DOT.

As a fan one of the options should have allowed me a true happy ending. Not realistic maybe but the option should have been there for those who want to take it. People are disappointed. Especially if this game has no canon as they told us before. Sorry, I don't believe it.

I think this is not the lead writer's idea. Either Bioware or EA executives forced these endings to the team. I do not fault even Casey Hudson. I think Bioware guys did their best under the circumstances.

EA is a commercial entity and Bioware is its asset. In real life you do not have to make top quality work to earn money. And in real life good marketing will sell bad games. And if they ensure the sales the post fan outrage does not matter. People will hope a better game next time and will buy that game.

Not that I think ME3 is bad. I did not play it yet. But it won't satisfy me with those endings. Does that make ME3 bad? Don't think so. We are not talking about the plot, or artistic creativity or technical prowess here. We are talking about frustrating endings. But does it feel like a betrayal, does that disappoint me? Yes. But I am sure some people will like the endings. I am not one of them.

As for C-class executives they are not judged mainly for their quality work. They have to fill the sales quota first and foremost. If the game sells well they won't care about fans. This kind of Hollywood ending is the simplest way to ensure quick cash-in for future series. I worked with these types in PR and investment business and still do. I know how they think. Just ask yourself a simple question. If we knew these endings 6 months ago how money people would buy the game?

C-class executives only care about money and they have to. Otherwise companies fire them. Only middle level executives and creative staff is really capable of doing higher quality work but they are usually not allowed to do that.

Modifié par Ksandor, 01 mars 2012 - 11:48 .

[Stanley Woo]

The endings are being discussed in at least three different threads in this forum. Please join one of those. Thank you.

End of line.