60 réponses à ce sujet

[Xeoneex]

Why oh WHY coulnd't you have kept it simple like the NWN toolset.  Whats with all this complex mass install of program after program for a simple tool.  Is it me or has EA just about screwed bioware for future releases of this type.  I don't get it and Im extremely furious about this whole ordeal.  Everyone is having the same issues and so far I have yet to see ANYTHING posted by bioware stating they are looking into the matter or a surefire way, for those of us that laymen to the world of computer programming, to get this thing running without mass amounts of errors and hassle.  And don't get me started on the toolset it self...

Modifié par Xeoneex, 26 novembre 2009 - 06:50 .

[Ranlas]

They built this toolset before EA aquired BioWare. That's how they built the game. EA has had very little to do with development, beyond supplying money and other resources.



And did you miss the Toolset Patch Information thread ( http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/8/index/173428 )? BioWare is entirely aware that there are errors for some users that slipped through testing. They're wroking on a patch.



As for the toolset itself, the reason its not quite as simple as the NWN toolset is because this is just about the same toolset they, the professionals, used to build Dragon Age. This toolset is definitely the most powerful I've ever seen for any game on the market. They needed all the power they could get, and with extra power and flexibility, you get a more complex toolset. The reason that it installs so many extra programs is because any sane programmer is going to tend to rather use something existing that works well than remake it themselves.



Also try to remember that the point of NWN was the toolset, with a campaign playing second fiddle. For DA, the point is the campaign, and the toolset is the one given less focus.



Does this relieve some of your stress? I know what it feels like to have a toolset that's not quite what you expect, but the DA toolset isn't terrible. Yeah, its gone from Toy to Tool, but follow the tutorials and ask questions. Join a team so you don't have to learn the whole toolset. You have the power to make some wicked awesome mods.

[Xeoneex]

I do agree this is the most powerful toolset. But yet for me it lacks alot. Inability to fully customize armor, weapons. I wish there was a way to change things like you could in NWN. You can't even add custom content which is a downer to those trying to add things. Thats what I'm mainly refering to.



And as far as installation/database issues I can't fix it. I pray they fix this soon as I'd like to fiddle with things and tweak stuff within the actual campaign. Unfortunatly it has to wait.

[Adinos]

You can't even add custom content

Sorry, but that is just plain wrong. You can easily add most types of custom content - the only exception being animated models, and that will hopefully get done soon.

[Ranlas]

You can, but most custom content (in terms of art assets) need some community tools to be built so that we can import into the game. BioWare wasn't allowed to release the importers that they used because the writers of those importers wouldn't let them.

[georage]

This is NOT the most powerful toolset people. It is just the most confusing and awkwardly functioning one.



But once you learn it you can create an RPG. So, get cracking.

[Matthew Young CT]

Which toolset is more powerful? Not even many candidates, wish more companies were so friendly to modders



It can be both powerful and awkward and confusing!

[FalloutBoy]

Xeoneex wrote...

I do agree this is the most powerful toolset. But yet for me it lacks alot. Inability to fully customize armor, weapons. I wish there was a way to change things like you could in NWN. You can't even add custom content which is a downer to those trying to add things. Thats what I'm mainly refering to.

Speak for yourself. If you want it to be easy, stick to NWN. If you want power and flexibility then you have to learn how to use the new stuff.

[bmatt17]

I've never used the NWN toolset and my programming experience is pretty much limited to VB and this was extremely easy to install and start working with. Read a tutorial or two.

[Adinos]

My advice - don't try to master the entire toolset at once - and don't start on a large project - you will just get overwhelmed.

[Astorax]

I understand that tempers are high because the expectation people had was the NWN toolset, and what they got was something way more complex.



You have to understand though, the toolset was created specifically for the game designers to do THEIR job, which was create the DA campaign. They had the luxury of time in working with the tool, and having people that created it go over with a fine-tooth comb explaining to them how to do their piece of the job.



Note...they do not have people that use every aspect of this toolset. They have cutscene designers that work with the cutscene tools, they have technical level designers that script things, they have writers that work with the conversation tools, etc etc.



I'll echo Adinos' recommendation that you decide what you want to focus on, and learn that PIECE of the toolset. Don't try to do everything, because you can't. This toolset was designed as a collaborative tool to tie the various jobs people have for design and allow them to work on the same project with the same tool. But none of them mastered all aspects of the toolset really.

[Dendory]

Not to hijack this but anyone has a definite answer if it's actually possible right now to add a custom area to the current single player campaing (pin on the map, going to the new location and successfully loading) to know if I'm wasting my time trying to figure out why my game just freezes when it tries to access the area I added?

[Astorax]

Dendory, you're way more likely to get an answer by posting that question in the Level and Area Design forum.

[VinnieMc]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

Which toolset is more powerful? Not even many candidates, wish more companies were so friendly to modders

It can be both powerful and awkward and confusing!

Well the Crysis SDK and the Unreal SDK are about the most powerful "free" game development systems on the market today.
They do real time physics, real time lighting, facial editor, character editor, vehicle editor, GUI flowgraph programming system, voxel creations, official exporters for max,xsi,maya, on and on and on...List far to long for this post.
Both these SDK's make the Dragon Age toolset seem like it came from the dark ages! (where it belongs..imo)

Bioware must stick to making games and leave the sdk/toolset creation to the big boys!!!

VinnieMc

Modifié par VinnieMc, 25 novembre 2009 - 08:37 .

[Astorax]

VinnieMc, did you even look at the Crysis V1 SDK? Or the first Unreal editor?



They were pale shadows of functionality compared to what they are today. Not to mention, they were also kludgy and hard to work with.



Comparing the DA Toolset to what is there today for those two products is kind of absurd. Not to mention both Crysis' and Unreal's whole goal is to market and sell their engine for retail, so making a set of tools that is easy to start using is their design FOCUS...whereas Bioware/EA's focus is making a single-player game experience, and releasing some tools that allows the users to create the same (with work).

[ladydesire]

VinnieMc wrote...

Matthew Young CT wrote...

Which toolset is more powerful? Not even many candidates, wish more companies were so friendly to modders

It can be both powerful and awkward and confusing!

Well the Crysis SDK and the Unreal SDK are about the most powerful "free" game development systems on the market today.
They do real time physics, real time lighting, facial editor, character editor, vehicle editor, GUI flowgraph programming system, voxel creations, official exporters for max,xsi,maya, on and on and on...List far to long for this post.
Both these SDK's make the Dragon Age toolset seem like it came from the dark ages! (where it belongs..imo)

Bioware must stick to making games and leave the sdk/toolset creation to the big boys!!!

VinnieMc

How many folks are going to own a PC powerful enough to take advantage of the capabilites of the UDK or the Crysis SDK? Most players complain if their minimum spec machine can't play the game with full shadows without lagging badly. Bioware's toolset, even with all the issues that people have encountered with it, is far more user friendly in that you don't need to know the ins and outs of C++ just to use it, like you do with the two you mentioned.

[Xeoneex]

FalloutBoy wrote...

Xeoneex wrote...

I do agree this is the most powerful toolset. But yet for me it lacks alot. Inability to fully customize armor, weapons. I wish there was a way to change things like you could in NWN. You can't even add custom content which is a downer to those trying to add things. Thats what I'm mainly refering to.

Speak for yourself. If you want it to be easy, stick to NWN. If you want power and flexibility then you have to learn how to use the new stuff.

The reason I'd take NWN's toolset over thispeice of garbage is simply you have ALOT less customization on things than you can with NWN.  Far as I've seen you can't even customize the land and buildings.  Why release a toolset that can create content if you can't even change the world you would want to customize to begin with?  Sorry but thats a poor assessment.

[Xeoneex]

And a further note the Morrowind TES was loads better becuase of the same thing, YOU COULD CUSTOMIZE EVERY INCH of that game and then some. Sorry this half assed thought up toolset was just a bomb. Even the crappy NWN 2 toolset was superior over this.

[ladydesire]

Xeoneex wrote...

FalloutBoy wrote...

Xeoneex wrote...

I do agree this is the most powerful toolset. But yet for me it lacks alot. Inability to fully customize armor, weapons. I wish there was a way to change things like you could in NWN. You can't even add custom content which is a downer to those trying to add things. Thats what I'm mainly refering to.

Speak for yourself. If you want it to be easy, stick to NWN. If you want power and flexibility then you have to learn how to use the new stuff.

The reason I'd take NWN's toolset over thispeice of garbage is simply you have ALOT less customization on things than you can with NWN.  Far as I've seen you can't even customize the land and buildings.  Why release a toolset that can create content if you can't even change the world you would want to customize to begin with?  Sorry but thats a poor assessment.

Just because you can't make modifications to the main campaign elements now doesn't mean you will never be able to; I'm glad Bioware locked the main campaign assets out in the first release of the toolset so people weren't screwing up their games worse than they have.

[Lord Mephisto]

I think the real problem here is not what you can't do with the toolset or what state it currently is in, but it is the lack of explainations how to do things. At least yet.

Given some time, I expect the single player campaign to be opened up for public view. And this will trigger an accellerating rate of knowledge and skills with the toolset.

If I understand you correctly, your complaint is more about things becoming too complicated? And that I can understand, but it is the (terrible) price we (have to) pay for better-looking technically advanced games. Making games is not easy, even with a completed professional toolset in your hands - but certainly easier than without it.

But Dragon Age has potential, unlike other unmentionable games of similar nature... I would still give it a try, but right now it isn't very easy. This will change.

(EDIT: Agh, the smilies are killing my text and the edit button isn't working!)

Modifié par Lord Mephisto, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:25 .

[ITSSEXYTIME]

The toolset itself is quite elegant, the interface makes it simple and seriously adding new content is as simple as right clicking and selecting New --> what you want.



The issue is the lack of tutorials to help with more specific command functionality and a lot of the scripting stuff isn't easy goings for newbies. It's still a great toolset as far as I'm concerned, even if it isn't a toy for people with an hour to kill.

[Xeoneex]

Well my brother is a graphical designer and he's thoroughly researched it and to his knowledge there is no way to import custom models. And the lack of true customization is bad. What I mean by this is, in the NWN toolset you can create a peice of armor from scratch. Its direct look stats and whatnot. In dragon age you cannot directly alter the look of any visable items. You can select whats there but you can't alter them like say adding pauldrons or color specific peices. Its really quite limited more than you realize.

[ladydesire]

Xeoneex wrote...

Well my brother is a graphical designer and he's thoroughly researched it and to his knowledge there is no way to import custom models. And the lack of true customization is bad. What I mean by this is, in the NWN toolset you can create a peice of armor from scratch. Its direct look stats and whatnot. In dragon age you cannot directly alter the look of any visable items. You can select whats there but you can't alter them like say adding pauldrons or color specific peices. Its really quite limited more than you realize.

Did his research show that DA modders plan to make the importers that Bioware could not provide, with the information that Bioware provided about the file formats in use? Which is something that has been stated in this very thread, by one of the modders involved in that work. Once we have the proper tools to do these things, the issues that you bring up here won't be valid.

[ChewyGumball]

It is quite possible with the tools available now to import and export custom static (not animated) models. Tazpn has created a tool which will take a model from the toolset and convert it into a file which can be opened and edited by a program such as 3dsmax or maya. The same tool can then turn a file created with those programs into something the editor will recognize. I have also written a script which will export from 3dsmax to a file which can then be compiled and used in the editor.

[Saboera]

Well, you cannot expect a Toolset of 2009 to be similar to a Toolset released in 2001. Since the technical aspect of video games has increased tenfolds in the last decade.

I took a quick look at it, while confusing at first due to the amount of features available, i found out that if you have played a bit with the Neverwinter Nights 2 toolset you can see some similar features yet is another step in complexity which was actually the same complaint when Nwn2 came out. The toolset has a lot of power however despite being hard to use, it overall seems to rely less on third party programs to edit game files and must be why it seems overwhelming.

From what i saw, it is possible to import models into the game, of course you cannot change individual parts unless you modify the models themselve and import them again as a new model. The armor for example is all stuck together as a single model rather being several smaller models like in Nwn as a result of technical progression. I'm no professional modeller but i'm pretty sure it's that way so the models can be seamless and avoid clipping issues. Nwn2 was sort of between the two and the clipping between the parts was downright horrific to the point where making a decent looking armor that looks good on any race was a pure nightmare.

If you are devoted, give people some time to crack it out, check out tutorials and ask questions.