60 réponses à ce sujet

[Astorax]

AFAIK, the only thing folks are missing to be able to do exactly what you're descibing Xeoneex is the bridge between the DA:O file formats for models/animations and the 3ds/Maya file formats, which there are a couple projects being worked on bridging that gap now.



Bioware said up front, for licensing reasons they were not able to release their tools that did this to us in the community, but they've made the file formats and sample files available to the folks working on those projects.



People couldn't do this with the NWN toolset at first either until the model importer/exporter was released by the community.

[blondesolid]

Astorax wrote...

I understand that tempers are high because the expectation people had was the NWN toolset, and what they got was something way more complex.

You have to understand though, the toolset was created specifically for the game designers to do THEIR job, which was create the DA campaign

Understood, you gave a bunch of gamers a free version of Biowares professional game development kit, and didn't expect this kind of chaos?  All I hear is how wonderful and great this toolset is from the "elites" and have yet to see a decent mod made with it that can't be done without an ingame console command. 

I understand Bethesda's (I mention these guys, because they have a pretty decent mod community out there  =) more recent games over the past few years are different monsters being open world games, but within days of touching their 1st toolkit I was making weapons and armor, adding npc's and routes for them, and on and on.  When the toolset wouldn't do something, the hardcore modders made script extenders for their works.  It's just so frustrating being spolied like that, coming to a newer game and kit, and being totally overwhelmed.  What's the point of this "grand tool" if only 8 people outside the company can do anything with it? 

Modifié par blondesolid, 26 novembre 2009 - 01:37 .

[A1x2e3l]

the only thing folks are missing….. is the bridge
between the DA:O file formats for models/animations and the 3ds/Maya file
formats

Nope. Not only. We need a working for a not-professional
individual customer set of usual modding tools (yes, including this “bridge”):
reliable stable and transparent construction kit (ToolSet if you will);
detailed documatration/manual, may be. even a book or series of video tutorials;
examples of original main game objects in Max format. I would buy that as a
separate game add-on product.

Note...they do not have people that use every aspect
of this toolset. They have cutscene designers that work with the cutscene
tools, they have technical level designers that script things, they have
writers that work with the conversation tools, etc etc.

AND

whereas Bioware/EA's focus is making a single-player
game experience, and releasing some tools that allows the users to create the
same (with work).

This is an obvious contradiction. It is simply not
serious/responsible to release a product designed to be used by a team of professional experts for general public use.
Nobody is selling a TV sets as a pile of chips and plastic parts with a welding
tool to be assembled by a grandma.

I bought the game exclusively because it has a modding tool
(at least I hoped so), hence I paid for the ToolSet.

I am apologizing but I do not understand way you are
comparing ToolSet with Crysis V1 SDK or the first Unreal editor? Why not with
Unreal 3 UDK?

Unreal 3 UDK and ToolSet were released almost
simultaneously.

Yes, Unreal Editor is not an easy one but it has ActorX for
3ds Max, Maya, XSI and for all versions of this programs including free
Autodesk XSI Mod Tool. We have NOTHING and you are encouraging talented
community programmers like Adinos and really few others to do the job for you,
crack you codes if to use correct words….The logical development of this
brilliant idea could be - program the game yourself, guys, here are some
professional ideas/instructions how to do that, 60 bucks for that, please..

The answer is simple: it is cheaper and faster to release
what you have already (“some tools”) with all that SQL useless for “a
single-player” stuff. Why? In order to attract customers like me and include a
statement in your advertising campaign that your game is “moddable”.

I like the game and that makes me even more frustrated. I hate modern shooters (Unreal series , Crysis, HL2, FO3, etc., all modable btw with copmplete modding sets) and I love off-line fantasy RPGs (BG2, NWN, DA:O and some others).

I am grateful that you are not ignoring or deleting such
posts as it is usually the case.

I am asking for the second time on this Forum can you
release modified/crippled exporters without any problematic third party
intellectual property?

My best regards.

Modifié par A1x2e3l, 26 novembre 2009 - 01:43 .

[A1x2e3l]

Bethesda is a totally different case they do not own
NetImmerse (Morrowind) or Gamebryo (Oblivion, FO3) game engine (nif format).
However, Max plugins for MW were released, CivIV Max exporter could be in some
cases used for Oblivion (e.g. animations).

You are right: a team of community programmers was working
for many years on nif plugins before these games (OB, FO3) were released.

[ChewyGumball]

Bioware is not selling this toolset, therefore your analogy with a tv is invalid. A more adequate analogy would be Bioware is selling a tv (the game), and on the side they will give you some extra pieces which let you hook up your computer to the tv (the toolset) if you assemble them correctly.



You can not compare this toolset with unreal or crysis sdks because those companies develop those programs for the purpose of selling them to other companies to develop with. Bioware made this tool for them, and them alone, to develop a game. Their focus was to make it work properly, not make it user friendly. The unreal and crysis sdks are meant to be user friendly so they can sell.



Also, to save time, it is feasible to purchase and use thirdparty software which you then integrate into your program. These licences generally do not include a clause that lets you release them to the general public. This is what happened with the exporter. If epic did this with unreal, it would never ever sell. Since Bioware is not selling their toolset, that is no factor in their decision making process.



There was a similar problem with (TES) Oblivion, and it took a while for custom models to be successfully imported using community tools, so please don't use it as an example of a toolset which came fully equipped.

[Darkflow]

Eh. You people sure are demanding. The game was released.. what, 3 weeks ago, and you're already expecting great mods to be out? It's not that quick. The pace on mods appearing should pick up after the toolset patch has come out, though. It has also been confirmed that at some point after the patch is out, the files used in the original campaign will be released, so we can edit (and learn) from those, too.



If you're feeling really stressed out about this, I recommend you take a deep breath and come back after a month or two. No toolset was perfect the moment it was launched. It takes time, a half dozen patches and an active community. Be patient.

[ladydesire]

A1x2e3l wrote...

the only thing folks are missing….. is the bridge
between the DA:O file formats for models/animations and the 3ds/Maya file
formats

Nope. Not only. We need a working for a not-professional
individual customer set of usual modding tools (yes, including this “bridge”):
reliable stable and transparent construction kit (ToolSet if you will);
detailed documatration/manual, may be. even a book or series of video tutorials;
examples of original main game objects in Max format. I would buy that as a
separate game add-on product.

You got a toolset that contains 90-95% of what the Developers themselves used to develop Dragon Age, for free, and you're complaining that waiting on some very talented modders to provide the missing 5-10% is too much to ask? Getting anything else is most likely not going to happen since Bioware would have to justify the cost of building a "user-friendly version" that does the same thing as the one they gave us.

[Xeoneex]

Saboera wrote...

Well, you cannot expect a Toolset of 2009 to be similar to a Toolset released in 2001. Since the technical aspect of video games has increased tenfolds in the last decade.

I took a quick look at it, while confusing at first due to the amount of features available, i found out that if you have played a bit with the Neverwinter Nights 2 toolset you can see some similar features yet is another step in complexity which was actually the same complaint when Nwn2 came out. The toolset has a lot of power however despite being hard to use, it overall seems to rely less on third party programs to edit game files and must be why it seems overwhelming.

From what i saw, it is possible to import models into the game, of course you cannot change individual parts unless you modify the models themselve and import them again as a new model. The armor for example is all stuck together as a single model rather being several smaller models like in Nwn as a result of technical progression. I'm no professional modeller but i'm pretty sure it's that way so the models can be seamless and avoid clipping issues. Nwn2 was sort of between the two and the clipping between the parts was downright horrific to the point where making a decent looking armor that looks good on any race was a pure nightmare.

If you are devoted, give people some time to crack it out, check out tutorials and ask questions.

You are absolutely right the toolset *2009* is way overestimated than the toolset *2001-2003*.  Sorry but that **** dont fly with me when you dont have installation errors up the wazoo.

As far as model import I'm sure its a lenghty pain in the ass process that doesnt even compare to the ease and stability of the NWN toolset.  Sorry nothing is going to convince me this peice of trash is anywhere remotely close to the solid stability of the NWN toolset.

[Xeoneex]

Darkflow wrote...

Eh. You people sure are demanding. The game was released.. what, 3 weeks ago, and you're already expecting great mods to be out? It's not that quick. The pace on mods appearing should pick up after the toolset patch has come out, though. It has also been confirmed that at some point after the patch is out, the files used in the original campaign will be released, so we can edit (and learn) from those, too.

If you're feeling really stressed out about this, I recommend you take a deep breath and come back after a month or two. No toolset was perfect the moment it was launched. It takes time, a half dozen patches and an active community. Be patient.

And lets take a step back down memory lane, when NWN was released the toolset came with it in all its glory without having to install databases fiddle with registry crap to get the databasing to even work, installation issues involving SP 2 or SP 3, Sorry I lost alot of respect for BioWare after the release of this toolset.  the morrowind TES as clunky and ackward to use is ALOT easier to use than this.  And THAT toolset doenst even hold a candle to the good ol NWN toolset.

[Xeoneex]

And on top of what Astorax said I understand there has to be a limitation with the toolset, even NWN had it but aside from that, so that people couldn't fully utilize the tools BioWare used to create this game. Hell if they did people could create their own humungous modules and SELL EM no less. But the point i'm trying to argue is the fact that the toolset of 2009 is so utterly inferior to the toolset back in what 2001-2003? I forget the exact year so forgive me upfront. It really is a let down when you can't even customize weaponry that you have to use what they created for their mainstory campaign. Yet in NWN you were able to fully create a whole array of weapons using seperate pulldown menues and 100's of different combos for stuff like armor and weaponry. I really wish BioWare could have foreseen this and have had it differently. Even the static world can't be changed to my knowledge. In fact one of the first video interviews i remember watching had one of the devs explaining this very thing. They weren't going to implement the ability to custom create the world. That everything they were making as far as land and where you are able to go are static and cannot be changed. What is the point of releasing a damn toolset to modders if you aren't going to give the customability that goes with it? Sorry but I'm utterly pissed about this.

[Ziroc_IronworksForum]

Yeah, I am a NWN1 Modder (Still am) and I'm extremely disappointed in Dragon Age's toolset. (And that its not Multiplayer).



What is a 'modding killer' is that DA can't import new 3D Models because of crappy Granny3D Plug-in. boom. there goes 80% of uniqueness Modders want to make. (No new monsters, placeables, items, armor?!?!)



Speedtree is ugly as hell..



Just to change a texture requires a 9000 step process--modders won't stand for that.

It's just way too limited, and Modders will give up on DA very soon unless the importing models thing changes. I'm sure many sighed, and moved on already. Which sucks. The game itself is fun...



DA *could* have a very long life.... Modding keeps people interested, so when a new add-on is released, you still have that fan base ready to buy more... oh well, we'll see what happens.

[Languard]

Er, what are you talking about Xeoneex? When the NWN toolset came out, it was almost un-useable. I talked with one of my fellow professors a few days ago to make sure I was remembering things correctly. Not to mention that you can create new 'lands'. They're called levels, and us level creators have already gotten our first patch to the lightmapper which has fixed a lot of the problems we were having.



The database, after a few patches, will be herald as wonderful thing. The possibilities this opens for teams is immense. Yes, they ran into some problems. To be expected. It will be worked out.



Patience people. Patience and understanding will go a long way. Us level editor's were being crippled by lighting errors, but we stayed calm, worked with BioWare, and now we have a fix Things will improve.

[ChewyGumball]

Installation issues are annoying but fixable. In fact, I would be very surprised if any piece of software which is so tightly connected to an "external" database as this toolset is didn't have problems installing on so many computers. Other than that, though, you don't make much sense. DA uses a much more powerful engine than NWN does, and with that power comes complexity. That is just how it goes. Dumbing down the toolset to be more like NWN would limit you far more than the "limits" you face now.

EDIT: And once again, importing custom models is possible. Please look on the wiki before you say silly things like that.

Modifié par ChewyGumball, 26 novembre 2009 - 03:18 .

[A1x2e3l]

OK, let’s be direct: I would NOT buy the game (at least
until release of a playable demo) WITHOUT knowing that there is toolset
available.




I agree that TV set kit for a grandma was an exaggeration.
But this does not change my position that modding tool and game developing toot
should be two different products because their users are pretty different. 



Not all companies that are specializing in game engines
development are releasing something like AxtorX and Unreal 3 UDK. I am unlucky:
I do not like shooters.




TESIV construction set is able to import some nif file
exported with CivIV nif Max exporter (CivIV plugin (supports only Max8) is
still preferred and with reasons by many OB modders for exporting animated
objects). Actually nobody except Bethesda made any modifications in it related
to asserts import in the set. Bethesda has modified some features of original
Gamebryo exporter and in nif format that the same programming genius Tazpn has
corrected and created his variant of Max4-2010/gMax importer/exporter plugin.

Tazpn has practically left NifTools community and the
project was placed on hold (nobody is able to continue). Our “work” was paralyzed.
I have found him here and followed.

There is a significant difference between Bethesda and
BioWare: Bethesda does not have any rights for Gamebryo game engine, Emergent
Game Technologies has, and these guys (unlike Epic) are reluctant to release
their products for general community in any form. I thought that BioWare being
also the game engine developer might release modding tools for DA:O in the way
they did for NWN2: Toolset, Max exporters, Max examples. I was wrong…

[Saboera]

Xeoneex wrote...

And on top of what Astorax said I understand there has to be a limitation with the toolset, even NWN had it but aside from that, so that people couldn't fully utilize the tools BioWare used to create this game. Hell if they did people could create their own humungous modules and SELL EM no less. But the point i'm trying to argue is the fact that the toolset of 2009 is so utterly inferior to the toolset back in what 2001-2003? I forget the exact year so forgive me upfront. It really is a let down when you can't even customize weaponry that you have to use what they created for their mainstory campaign. Yet in NWN you were able to fully create a whole array of weapons using seperate pulldown menues and 100's of different combos for stuff like armor and weaponry. I really wish BioWare could have foreseen this and have had it differently. Even the static world can't be changed to my knowledge. In fact one of the first video interviews i remember watching had one of the devs explaining this very thing. They weren't going to implement the ability to custom create the world. That everything they were making as far as land and where you are able to go are static and cannot be changed. What is the point of releasing a damn toolset to modders if you aren't going to give the customability that goes with it? Sorry but I'm utterly pissed about this.

Like i said, it's 2009, games back then were able to be created on simple toolsets just like almost everyone was able to easily get their custom models into the game without all the different mappings required by the new engines. Nowaday, it takes specialists in every aspects, you want better graphics and it comes with its own price and problems to deal with. Is it inferior? If inferior means complicated and requires expertise then yes it is inferior, otherwise it has more power and more flexibility than the Neverwinter Nights toolset in every way.

Modding of the past is dead and buried, better get used to the requirements and complexity of new toolsets because it's not gonna change. Living in the past and comparing those toolset from 2001-2003 to those of today, you will notice there is a crapload of departure from each others across the years and it will get more and more complex as the years goes on.

When they make a toolset, they need it to meet the requirements and flexibility required for their own need, sadly somewhere in the process, they didn't had time to develop a toolset for the wannabe devs which is perfectly understandable. It's a tool designed by professionals for professionals or wannabe professionals. It's not for Bobby and Joe the plumbers who want to make a game with their big modding background consisting of nothing who, to boot refuse to start learning. It's leap and bound ahead of the Neverwinter Nights 2 toolset which is from 2006, what do you think was gonna happen when you open this after years of innovation?

As far as the customizing the world, you can create new areas and levels so im not sure what the hell you are talking about. It's no longer Tiles based but its there. The toolset is super complicated exactly because they wish to give you this customization level. What cannot be done with the toolset for whatever reason is made possible via third party programs usually.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Xeoneex wrote...

Well my brother is a graphical designer and he's thoroughly researched it and to his knowledge there is no way to import custom models. And the lack of true customization is bad. What I mean by this is, in the NWN toolset you can create a peice of armor from scratch. Its direct look stats and whatnot. In dragon age you cannot directly alter the look of any visable items. You can select whats there but you can't alter them like say adding pauldrons or color specific peices. Its really quite limited more than you realize.

Of course you can: it just requires more technical know-how then putting together lego.

[Astorax]

A1x2e3l, you're misinformed...cause, you know, Bioware wasn't involved with NWN2...but that's okay.



The developers have said they will not spend the resources crippling their importer/exporter tools, but instead would supply models for reverse engineering to the community members working on those tools. They have, and they're being worked on.



These things were NOT available to NWN upon its toolset release for a number of weeks... sound familiar?



Also, I'm comparing the toolset to Unreal 1, and the Crysis SDK because this toolset is, like those tools, a first iteration. Meaning it suffers from all the foibles of that situation. Unreal 3 had the benefit of two generations of iterations on the tools before it hit the Unreal 3 toolset. Comparing that to the DA toolset isn't fair.



I'm sorry you're dissatisfied with the state of affairs that they're in now. Thus is the crux of early adopting. I suggest you go take a break for a couple months, then come back later when a couple patches have gone by.



I agree that the base selection is a bit sparse, but you're misremembering the NWN toolset...when it first came out, there was also limited models. You COULD however change the color of the models...that was the extend of the customization. There were roughly 5 models of each weapon type, with 3 colors each.



I believe DA already has more than that now...

[Xeoneex]

Languard wrote...

Er, what are you talking about Xeoneex? When the NWN toolset came out, it was almost un-useable. I talked with one of my fellow professors a few days ago to make sure I was remembering things correctly. Not to mention that you can create new 'lands'. They're called levels, and us level creators have already gotten our first patch to the lightmapper which has fixed a lot of the problems we were having.

The database, after a few patches, will be herald as wonderful thing. The possibilities this opens for teams is immense. Yes, they ran into some problems. To be expected. It will be worked out.

Patience people. Patience and understanding will go a long way. Us level editor's were being crippled by lighting errors, but we stayed calm, worked with BioWare, and now we have a fix Things will improve.

Ya a wonderful thing my ass.  When it takes so much work to get the damn thing installed only to not even work I think that was the biggest asset this toolset has going for it right now.  I'm sorry but a developer tool that requires so much attention to installation and fumbling around to get it WORKING after installation says one gigantic thing:  THIS WAS RELEASED WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to early.  Sorry I'm not convinced this "complex" toolset is superior.

[A1x2e3l]

What is 90-95% for you is nearly 0% for me and those 5-10%
is 100% for me: my moddding specialization is PC/NPC animation and body
shaping. Without official Max exporter I am “blocked”. Modern games and,
probably, DA:O have many complex animation related features (bone LODs,
sophisticated collision structures, rag dolls physics, etc) that are very
difficult for reverse engineering (I know that from practice).

OK, I will wait and enjoy game playing, I wanted only
to support the topic author and selfishly share some of my frustrations.

A1x2e3l, you're misinformed...cause, you know,
Bioware wasn't involved with NWN2...but that's okay.

 Ohps, I am apologizing, I have never played NWN2. I saw a
friend playing this game and was not impressed. But I played NWN and BG2 a lot.



 You are counting development iterations and I was talking
about implemented features. I see.



 

The developers have said they will not spend the
resources crippling their importer/exporter tools

 Thank you for the clear answer. But it sounds not very
encouraging.



 

I suggest you go take a break for a couple months,
then come back later when a couple patches have gone by.

 I will follow your advice ( what's left).I hope that I would be able to
play patched game and use ToolSet: I am on XP, SP2 (with SQL hotfixes), and
that works so far.

Modifié par A1x2e3l, 26 novembre 2009 - 04:31 .

[Xeoneex]

ChewyGumball wrote...

Installation issues are annoying but fixable. In fact, I would be very surprised if any piece of software which is so tightly connected to an "external" database as this toolset is didn't have problems installing on so many computers. Other than that, though, you don't make much sense. DA uses a much more powerful engine than NWN does, and with that power comes complexity. That is just how it goes. Dumbing down the toolset to be more like NWN would limit you far more than the "limits" you face now.

EDIT: And once again, importing custom models is possible. Please look on the wiki before you say silly things like that.

And I wasn't saying dumb down the toolset to be like NWN, I was comparing the customziation with the simplicity of the toolset vs the utterly clunky interface, **** you cant' even turn off/on lighting to see models against that BLACK ASS background.  Your gonna tell me that complexity is always better?  I think not.

[GN-Lelldorianx]

You guys are beating on Astorax and BioWare way too much. As a QA tester at a very large computer company, I can easily understand why you guys are disappointed with the first rev of this engine, as I face the same anger every day at work when they fail to fix things



This is the first rev/iteration, unless you are serious / hardcore about learning the tool so early in the game, I'd sincerely recommend coming back a bit later. Subscribe to some groups, use the tools BioWare has made available (the social aspect, anyway) to keep in touch with the community and know when things are stable.



Until stability is clear, go buy a $0.99 notebook and start designing your mods in detail. Then come back a few months later, and start blasting them out Think of all the complex mods Oblivion has - sure, the nude mod came out instantly, but the useful ones? They took months, in the case of some, a year.

[Xeoneex]

Astorax wrote...

I agree that the base selection is a bit sparse, but you're misremembering the NWN toolset...when it first came out, there was also limited models. You COULD however change the color of the models...that was the extend of the customization. There were roughly 5 models of each weapon type, with 3 colors each.

But my point is thus, whats the point of giving a tool out that is suppose to in retrospect add customization to a game that in normal regard is meant for a static adventure, yet your ability to add on to it makes it worthwhile YET by cutting down on the customization is only showing that they are going down the dark path of what we all come to fear, the dreaded closure of gaming companys as this I fear is the start of that long downward spiral.  I'm truelly sorry but I find this toolset inferior to NWN NOT becuase of the simplicity of the NWN toolset but the mass customization as well as the ease of creation and implementation.  Complexity doesn't always mean BETTER and this proves my point.

[Xeoneex]

I don't think its going to get all that much better in the future. This to me was BioWares Major project of the year. The game itself was a letdown after I beat it. Only to find the toolset was also a letdown. Is this what I'm to expect from the quality of BioWares games? I'm holding my breath on KoToR online I pray they dont flub that up or my love for BioWare will most likely wane to nonexistant. And I never thought I'd see the day. SO SOON yet.

[Xeoneex]

And you know what else I just realized, that proves my point even further, the fact that the NWN toolset was so much easier to use for someone like me who doesnt know diddly about programming or anything of the like, yet had a BLAST making silly little modules to play around with. You think I can do that with the dragon age toolset? HELL NO i can't even get the damn thing to run without the oh so famous Unable to connect to database. I'm utterly pissed about this and Im furious that i wasted my money on all this only to be let down by yet another game this year. Sorry my faith in the gaming indrustry is going as fast down the toilet. And I dont see this getting better in the next few years to go or even the next few decades.

[ChewyGumball]

What customization can't you do in this toolset? What customization was cut down? Custom models? Haven't we been over this?
I haven't seen much you can't customize without some work. As game engines get more complicated, so to do the tools to create assets for them. Yes, things could have been more user friendly, but that is only a superficial thing. There is nothing having a user friendly interface adds which is not there already in terms of customization and what is and what is not possible with the toolset. The only thing it impacts is YOUR ability to use the toolset. However, unlike the toolset which is largely immutable, you can learn new things and work around problems that come up.

EDIT: You seem to be a very pessimistic person so I will stop replying.

Modifié par ChewyGumball, 26 novembre 2009 - 04:30 .