232 réponses à ce sujet

[Bawseee]

Meh, i'll still play full Renegade. **** it.

[GuardianAngel470]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Natureguy85 wrote...

Has Bioware ever discussed why they have stuck with the two separate meters for paragon/renegade rather than one balance bar like KOTOR for example? Just curious on their thoughts.

I think it's there to show how renegade/paragon you have been.

The idea is that you can fill one without losing points in the other. Theoretically this allows you to mix it up and be Paragade or Renegon, as the fan-lingo calls such characters, and for the most part that works in ME1 because it doesn't take that long at all to fill the bars and you don't even need a full morality bar at all to unlock all of the levels in the Persuasion skills. ME1 also provides a number of "Renegade" ways to perform otherwise "Paragon" actions, the easiest example being to use Intimidate to force Lorik Qui'in (which nets you a significant Renegade bonus) to help the Noveria internal affairs agent Gianna Parasini prosecute Administrator Anoleis (which gets you a large Paragon bonus and a free Charm level-up). The "whole-hog Renegade" option in that instance is unquestionably brutal rather than "mixed"--you have the option to rat Gianna out to Anoleis, resulting in the two of them shooting each other dead. Shepard then steals Anoleis's garage pass before the port authority gets there, and says he only just found them. (That gets you a massive Renegade boost and a free level-up point to Intimidation.)

The system only gets patchy in Mass Effect 2 because of a few major design flaws:
- Charm and Intimidate, rather than being tied to skills you put level-up points into and only "unlock" by reaching specific morality-meter levels, are tied directly to your Paragon and Renegade meters, so actually leveling them up as high as you can is more of a priority.
- The morality meters fill much more slowly, and without gaining as many points as possible and leveling up your "class" skill for the general Paragon/Renegade percentage bonus it gives you, it's nearly impossible to get the higher-end persuasion options without going whole-hog Paragon or Renegade. The morality bonuses that imported ME1 files bring in mitigate this somewhat, as an extra 100+ points toward your morality meters at the start gives you a lot more latititude to mix up your moral choices during the early stages of the game.
- The morality requirements are based not on how many missions you've done or how many key story missions you've done or anything sensible like that, but on how many of the game's four city areas you've visited (Omega, the Citadel, Illium, and Tuchanka). Any player who visits all four towns as early as they can will find themselves inexplicably unable to take advantage of a lot of persuasion options they might otherwise have been able to make use of, for an entirely arbitrary reason.

This system looks like it might combine the relative simplicity of ME2's system (i.e. "the more you do, the more influence you have") with the flexibility that ME1's allowed.

Don't disagree with the sentiment, want to correct misconceptions.

The morality is NOT tied to how many of the hub worlds you've visited, though it may appear that way based on how the system actually works.

In ME2 the system is basically this: Every Charm/Intimidate check is based on a Points Earned/Points Possible percentage. As you earn Paragon and Renegade points, the game keeps track of the points you DID NOT earn as well. So for example if you start at the beginning of the game and you have earned 100 Renegade points out of 100 possible renegade points (based on past conversations and interupts) your Intimidate score will be 100%, allowing you to perform any and all Intimidate Checks in the game.

However if you continue through the game and have made more paragon or neutral dialog choices/interupts and you have earned 250 Renegade points out of 500 possible renegade points, your Intimidate score will then be 50%, allowing you to do any Intimidate Check that requires 50% or less.

This system almost completely ignores the graphical bars in the character progression screen. This system is the reason you can have a full Paragon bar and be unable to do a Charm Check. I really, really don't like this system.

By comparison I think this new system, while something that requires getting used to, looks like a really great one. Kudos to Bioware for again listening to their fans.

[MrFob]

Well, it sounds way better then ME2s system. Could have it's drawbacks though. I mean, since you get anyway, the only thing that determines if you can do a persuasion or not is your game progress. That means, either it is balanced in way so that you can pretty much always do them (which obviously renders the system moot) or you have to get lucky/use a guide and have missions with easier persuasions in the beginning and those with difficult ones later (which makes it a gamble and - if you know - sort of determines the order in which you do the missions thus increasing linearity of the game). Still, I hope it works well in the end.

[Kamifel]

wait, we will finally be able to make a grey character without any malus ? awesome..

[didymos1120]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

The morality is NOT tied to how many of the hub worlds you've visited, though it may appear that way based on how the system actually works.

In practical terms, yeah, it IS tied to that.  Why?  Because as soon as you visit any new location, the pool of available points gets updated to include all the opportunities at that new location.

[Natureguy85]

Don't disagree with the sentiment, want to correct misconceptions.

The morality is NOT tied to how many of the hub worlds you've visited, though it may appear that way based on how the system actually works.

In ME2 the system is basically this: Every Charm/Intimidate check is based on a Points Earned/Points Possible percentage. As you earn Paragon and Renegade points, the game keeps track of the points you DID NOT earn as well. So for example if you start at the beginning of the game and you have earned 100 Renegade points out of 100 possible renegade points (based on past conversations and interupts) your Intimidate score will be 100%, allowing you to perform any and all Intimidate Checks in the game.

However if you continue through the game and have made more paragon or neutral dialog choices/interupts and you have earned 250 Renegade points out of 500 possible renegade points, your Intimidate score will then be 50%, allowing you to do any Intimidate Check that requires 50% or less.

This system almost completely ignores the graphical bars in the character progression screen. This system is the reason you can have a full Paragon bar and be unable to do a Charm Check. I really, really don't like this system.

By comparison I think this new system, while something that requires getting used to, looks like a really great one. Kudos to Bioware for again listening to their fans.

That's what I was originally talking about. That system makes you actually show a pattern of behavior to get the hard checks, saying "You need to have demonstrated that Shepard would do/say this". It's worse for gameplay, but better for immersion and role play.

Again, the benefit of the new system is that you are more free to take situations on a case by case basis, rather than being stuck into a one size fits all philosophy.

[Natureguy85]

didymos1120 wrote...

Natureguy85 wrote...

Has Bioware ever discussed why they have stuck with the two separate meters for paragon/renegade rather than one balance bar like KOTOR for example? Just curious on their thoughts.

Maybe because they are two separate things as far as the game is concerned?  You don't lose Paragon points when you make a Renegade choice, or vice versa, so why would they have a UI that doesn't reflect that?

Because the united bar would show an overall alignment. I didn't say they should have done that, I just wonder why they decided to keep them separate. One good reason I can think of is that a few choices on one side don't get swallowed up and forgotten in a sea of choices on the other. Even if your alignment is way paragon or renegade, your decisions to the other one are always in that bar.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Deleted!

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 07 mars 2012 - 11:56 .