232 réponses à ce sujet

[Calamista]

Cool post and cool changes. Thanks!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm slightly confused. Is this a new feature to the Paragon/Renegade System or a reworking of the whole thing? In the old games there were independent bars you had to fill up. Ist hat still the case because they look like they fit into one line now. Or is your reptuation bar a seperate mechanic?

[shepskisaac]

Paula Deen wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

I do recall Casey saying there are still benefits to sticking with one approach, however. No idea what he meant by that.

He talked about choices, not points. It's spoiler territory but yes, solving larger plots (throughout the entire trilogy, not just in ME3) via one playstyle, Paragon or Renegade, is better.

This is exactly what I'm worried and annoyed about. The blog takes pride in mentioning how the system supports and promotes "mixed" approaches, but in reality the game vastly encourages going Max Paragon or Max Renegade for both the most persuasion power AND story/gameplay outcomes.

No, it encourages sticking to your stance on  a particular matter, or particular bigger concern. To avoid any spoilers, for example, if you hate Hanars but love Elcors, then it would be better to keep hating Hanars and loving Elcors and not suddenly change your views 180 degrees. And just because you're hating Hanars doesn't mean you should hate everyone else too because you think "ohh so hating Hanars is already Renegade so I should stick to Renegade regarding everything else". No.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 02 mars 2012 - 03:12 .

[didymos1120]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm slightly confused. Is this a new feature to the Paragon/Renegade System or a reworking of the whole thing? In the old games there were independent bars you had to fill up. Ist hat still the case because they look like they fit into one line now. Or is your reptuation bar a seperate mechanic?

Did you read the blog? It answers all those questions.

Modifié par didymos1120, 02 mars 2012 - 03:12 .

[Morale4HATE]

That is awesome. Now if you excuse me I am gonna go into a medically induced coma till the sixth.

[xentar]

Kinda-semi-reasonable, I guess. Although, it seems either all completionists are going to end up perfect diplomats or some decisions are going to be preferred due to reputation gains they offer, which is no better than what the previous systems offered.

[mjh417]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU BIOWARE THANK YOU. Best day ever. Finally I can play Renagon and not have to worry about not being able to intimidate when I need to. This is how it always should have been.

[didymos1120]

xentar wrote...

Kinda-semi-reasonable, I guess. Although, it seems either all completionists are going to end up perfect diplomats or some decisions are going to be preferred due to reputation gains they offer, which is no better than what the previous systems offered.

And how do you get that?

[Zu Long]

Sounds like a big improvement over ME2. Looking forward to it!

[Nathan Redgrave]

My guess wasn't far off, I see.

So if we gain ten general Rep points, and had 10% Paragon vs. 90% Renegade for a total of 100 points between the two, we go up to 110 points but keep the 10% Paragon/90% Renegade ratio we started with, essentially going from having 10 Paragon and 90 Renegade to having 11 Paragon and 99 Renegade. That about right?

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 02 mars 2012 - 04:16 .

[shepskisaac]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

My guess wasn't far off, I see.

So if we gain ten general Rep points, and had 10% Paragon vs. 90% Renegade for a total of 100 points between the two, we go up to 110 points but keep the 10% Paragon/90% Renegade ratio we started with, essentially going from having 10 Paragon and 90 Renegade to having 11 Paragon and 99 Renegade. That about right?

Yes Loving this system Reputation for (s/s) LI! :')

[Repearized Miranda]

didymos1120 wrote...

xentar wrote...

Kinda-semi-reasonable, I guess. Although, it seems either all completionists are going to end up perfect diplomats or some decisions are going to be preferred due to reputation gains they offer, which is no better than what the previous systems offered.

And how do you get that?

Well, because of the "no penalty" thing. 

Like it was in the first two games: If you wanted to go completely one way or the other. how did you seem to most people?

If you always shot first, before asking questions, what kind of reputation did you get? This new meter is as arbitrary as the last one - which is funny since this is what folks complained about.

All blue choices meant you were revered while all red choices meant you were feared and this is disregarding the main ones. What was the deal with saying how your crew members would react based on what you did or said - especially in ME2? That was reputation! But no, it's not since we didn't have an arbitrary meter (we did, but that isn't the point) Well, to some, it was, but I, too fail to see that difference.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea; however, they rally just ended up masking what always was! As excited as we are about it now, play with it for awhile and see if it actually is different from the previous one! I really believe it isn't!

I understand how the first two prevented you from making certain choices, but most only saw the blue = win; red = lose and some still see it like that with the new meter. Why they put such a meter when what's happening through the dialogues with crew mates, enemies, frenemies and whatnot should tell you where you stand with people!

"You're not a people person" should clue you in instead of "Renegade meter is 75% full/Rep meter is next to nil." I'm not saying that indicators of some kind should be abolished, but I think we're intelligent enough to know when someone says: "Buzz off!"

Again, the rep meter is a wonderful addition, I just don't think it's as grand as folks are making it. That's like seeing a celeb all glammed up and drooling over him or her, but when you take away all the glossiness, more than likely, you won't give to iotas about him or her.

Bad example, but marriage is probably the best one. No offense to any that are, but that same person you met well-groomed, mannered and whatnot, only to discovered that the person is not and then regret your decision to marry asking yourself: What'd I get into?

As glammed up as this meter is, it's still the same bar underneath. It's sad, that most didn't see this, despite fixing or glamming it up!

The more things change ... no?

[Sipau Fade]

It's odd that no one noticed but this picture confirms you will get 181 skill points. 1-30 = 2 points per level and 31-60=181. Very cool indeed

[Algent]

I made a french translation here:
http://forum.canardp...l=1#post5192627
Well I gues anyone reading this doesn't really need it :3.

[evilteq]

This is really wonderful, like music to my ears.

As a sidenote, I don't play anymore so I don't know the current status of it but, could you go to SWTOR team and tell them how cool this is?

[PaulSX]

I dont think this system is better than ME2's. if the reputation does not depend on the ratio between paragon and renegade, what is the point to keep this moral meter? I mean in this way you dont get any benefit to be a hardcore paragon or hardcore renegade. They should make some choices that prefer high paragon, some choices prefer high renegade and others that check overall reputation.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Repearized Miranda wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

xentar wrote...

Kinda-semi-reasonable, I guess. Although, it seems either all completionists are going to end up perfect diplomats or some decisions are going to be preferred due to reputation gains they offer, which is no better than what the previous systems offered.

And how do you get that?

Well, because of the "no penalty" thing. 

Like it was in the first two games: If you wanted to go completely one way or the other. how did you seem to most people?

If you always shot first, before asking questions, what kind of reputation did you get? This new meter is as arbitrary as the last one - which is funny since this is what folks complained about.

All blue choices meant you were revered while all red choices meant you were feared and this is disregarding the main ones. What was the deal with saying how your crew members would react based on what you did or said - especially in ME2? That was reputation! But no, it's not since we didn't have an arbitrary meter (we did, but that isn't the point) Well, to some, it was, but I, too fail to see that difference.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea; however, they rally just ended up masking what always was! As excited as we are about it now, play with it for awhile and see if it actually is different from the previous one! I really believe it isn't!

I understand how the first two prevented you from making certain choices, but most only saw the blue = win; red = lose and some still see it like that with the new meter. Why they put such a meter when what's happening through the dialogues with crew mates, enemies, frenemies and whatnot should tell you where you stand with people!

"You're not a people person" should clue you in instead of "Renegade meter is 75% full/Rep meter is next to nil." I'm not saying that indicators of some kind should be abolished, but I think we're intelligent enough to know when someone says: "Buzz off!"

Again, the rep meter is a wonderful addition, I just don't think it's as grand as folks are making it. That's like seeing a celeb all glammed up and drooling over him or her, but when you take away all the glossiness, more than likely, you won't give to iotas about him or her.

Bad example, but marriage is probably the best one. No offense to any that are, but that same person you met well-groomed, mannered and whatnot, only to discovered that the person is not and then regret your decision to marry asking yourself: What'd I get into?

As glammed up as this meter is, it's still the same bar underneath. It's sad, that most didn't see this, despite fixing or glamming it up!

The more things change ... no?

I think the real issue people really wanted fixed was that a number of crucial persuasion options required you to pretty much have all of the points you could get at a given point in the game in one morality school or the other, to the point where the system's very programming was imbalanced (it was based on how many of the hub areas you'd visited; if you'd visited only Omega, Charm and Intimidate didn't require many points at all, but once you'd visited the Citadel, Illium, and Tuchanka as well, you pretty much needed maximum Paragon to get the more integral Charm options and full Renegade for the Intimidates. Depending on what order you did things in, this could result in some ridiculously high point requirements--such that it was literally impossible to have gotten that many points at all.

The only balancing factor to that flaw was the import bonus you get for however much morality you scored in ME1. My male Soldier went pretty mixed about his morality options in ME1, apart from the major choices (which were all Paragon), so he ended with a full Paragon bar and an 80%-or-so-full Renegade bar--which got him over a hundred starting Paragon and Renegade points, allowing for a more flexible approach to morality without losing access to too many Charm/Intimidate options. Even then, the game doesn't give you as much license to mix and match; in ME1, you could, if you so chose, level up both Persuasion skills to the point where most of the high-level Charm and Intimidation options were always available. That sort of thing gives you more freedom with Shepard's personality, so that being Paragon doesn't have to mean being a softhearted diplomat who can't crack the whip, and being a Renegade doesn't have to mean being a chest-thumping krogan wannabe.

The Reputation meter is essentially just adding "Neutral" points to the mix, allowing for a more flexible system of choice so that people don't have reason to ask, "Why not just pick one moral meter and have the game auto-select all of the Paragon dialogue or something?" It also has the effect of rendering the "middle" option on the dialogue wheel less pointless... as in ME2, those were the options nobody ever picked, because they knew more often than not the top and bottom ones got some kind of point bonus while the middle one got jack-all.

[Repearized Miranda]

suntzuxi wrote...

I dont think this system is better than ME2's. if the reputation does not depend on the ratio between paragon and renegade, what is the point to keep this moral meter? I mean in this way you dont get any benefit to be a hardcore paragon or hardcore renegade. They should make some choices that prefer high paragon, some choices prefer high renegade and others that check overall reputation.

This is what many were arguing against because "I don't have enough red/blue, I can't make this choice!" However, I would Shepard (re: not you) make the choice [s]he you can't? On my first playtrough, I was locked out of plenty of blue choices, but then I took myself out of the equation and thought: It's not in Femshep's nature to make the blue choice at certain plot points. She's made some yellow choices that got her some blue lights, but she prefers the red ones. I fail to see what's wrong with that.

I made the pretty lengthy post about immersion vs. projection and from the middleground players, there's alot more projection than immersion. (ie: "I wouldn't do this, so Shepard will not!" No different when a character in any medium does something the viewer wouldn't; however, you literally have no control over what that character does)

Yes, you're playing as Shepard, but both are still two separate entities. And no, this is not talking about separating fantasy and reality; however, I can see how immersion and projection blurs this line!

I might not kill 300k aliens or just normal people who ****** me the hell off no matter how pissed I get, but Femshep ...

[Repearized Miranda]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Repearized Miranda wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

xentar wrote...

Kinda-semi-reasonable, I guess. Although, it seems either all completionists are going to end up perfect diplomats or some decisions are going to be preferred due to reputation gains they offer, which is no better than what the previous systems offered.

And how do you get that?

Well, because of the "no penalty" thing. 

Like it was in the first two games: If you wanted to go completely one way or the other. how did you seem to most people?

If you always shot first, before asking questions, what kind of reputation did you get? This new meter is as arbitrary as the last one - which is funny since this is what folks complained about.

All blue choices meant you were revered while all red choices meant you were feared and this is disregarding the main ones. What was the deal with saying how your crew members would react based on what you did or said - especially in ME2? That was reputation! But no, it's not since we didn't have an arbitrary meter (we did, but that isn't the point) Well, to some, it was, but I, too fail to see that difference.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea; however, they rally just ended up masking what always was! As excited as we are about it now, play with it for awhile and see if it actually is different from the previous one! I really believe it isn't!

I understand how the first two prevented you from making certain choices, but most only saw the blue = win; red = lose and some still see it like that with the new meter. Why they put such a meter when what's happening through the dialogues with crew mates, enemies, frenemies and whatnot should tell you where you stand with people!

"You're not a people person" should clue you in instead of "Renegade meter is 75% full/Rep meter is next to nil." I'm not saying that indicators of some kind should be abolished, but I think we're intelligent enough to know when someone says: "Buzz off!"

Again, the rep meter is a wonderful addition, I just don't think it's as grand as folks are making it. That's like seeing a celeb all glammed up and drooling over him or her, but when you take away all the glossiness, more than likely, you won't give to iotas about him or her.

Bad example, but marriage is probably the best one. No offense to any that are, but that same person you met well-groomed, mannered and whatnot, only to discovered that the person is not and then regret your decision to marry asking yourself: What'd I get into?

As glammed up as this meter is, it's still the same bar underneath. It's sad, that most didn't see this, despite fixing or glamming it up!

The more things change ... no?

I think the real issue people really wanted fixed was that a number of crucial persuasion options required you to pretty much have all of the points you could get at a given point in the game in one morality school or the other, to the point where the system's very programming was imbalanced (it was based on how many of the hub areas you'd visited; if you'd visited only Omega, Charm and Intimidate didn't require many points at all, but once you'd visited the Citadel, Illium, and Tuchanka as well, you pretty much needed maximum Paragon to get the more integral Charm options and full Renegade for the Intimidates. Depending on what order you did things in, this could result in some ridiculously high point requirements--such that it was literally impossible to have gotten that many points at all.

The only balancing factor to that flaw was the import bonus you get for however much morality you scored in ME1. My male Soldier went pretty mixed about his morality options in ME1, apart from the major choices (which were all Paragon), so he ended with a full Paragon bar and an 80%-or-so-full Renegade bar--which got him over a hundred starting Paragon and Renegade points, allowing for a more flexible approach to morality without losing access to too many Charm/Intimidate options. Even then, the game doesn't give you as much license to mix and match; in ME1, you could, if you so chose, level up both Persuasion skills to the point where most of the high-level Charm and Intimidation options were always available. That sort of thing gives you more freedom with Shepard's personality, so that being Paragon doesn't have to mean being a softhearted diplomat who can't crack the whip, and being a Renegade doesn't have to mean being a chest-thumping krogan wannabe.

The Reputation meter is essentially just adding "Neutral" points to the mix, allowing for a more flexible system of choice so that people don't have reason to ask, "Why not just pick one moral meter and have the game auto-select all of the Paragon dialogue or something?" It also has the effect of rendering the "middle" option on the dialogue wheel less pointless... as in ME2, those were the options nobody ever picked, because they knew more often than not the top and bottom ones got some kind of point bonus while the middle one got jack-all.

I understand that and I hope it's fixes this, I do, And as you said, the neutral answers got you no points. I wonder why?

"Mom, can I have this cookie?" You can't tell me the child is not looking for a definitive answer! If you don't give it one, it's going to continue to bug you unless you Paragon: Give him/her the cookie Renegade: Tell the child, "no!" "I'll think about it." is pretty much a masked maybe!

If you always respond with "Maybe!", the child will more than likely not ask you for anything else because those "Maybe!" become perceived "no's" and don't dare start badgering or they will certainly become definitive! 

If there had been a middle option regarding any of the big choices in ME1 or ME2 (these being on the right side of the dialogue wheel). How many would honestly pick the middle answer: Let's go kick some Reaper tail/You guys go, I'll stay behind/Let them destroy Earth.

IOW, the middle option is the maybe part and maybe is like almost: It doesn't count! Are you in or are you out? That's why it was worth nothing!

Neutrality means "I don't care!" Who are you rooting for? Well, I like/hate both teams, so I don't really care!

Now, if I don't care happened to be a red or blue choice (worded appropriately) then, it should be worth something as the VA will probably will exude the appropriate emotion (as directed), but to not make this a VA war, the appropriate dialogue shall saffice.


I do care. Too many lives were lost. Not ... one ... more
Meh.
Why don't we just cut our damn loses

Since it's worth something now though, just imagine the NPCs involved in that situation annoying the hell out of you, asking for a definitive answer. They may not like a no and mi=ay not like a yes, but say "Maybe!" and well - just prepare yourself. Do you really want that for whatever the value?

Modifié par Repearized Miranda, 02 mars 2012 - 06:49 .

[Reever]

This sounds freakin great!!! =)

[Vez04]

BlueDemonX wrote...

This sounds freakin great!!! =)

[Nighthawkk771]

Sounds like they've done an awesome job of finally creating a morality system that represents something that isn't entirely superficial, and more importantly, allows moral ambiguity and neutrality back into the system. I'm actually really impressed by how this has turned out

[shepskisaac]

Algent wrote...

I made a french translation here:
http://forum.canardp...l=1#post5192627
Well I gues anyone reading this doesn't really need it :3.

I'm sure many French people on the forum you posted it will appreciate translation