232 réponses à ce sujet

[Junthor]

Hey, this makes a lot of sense!

[Lucy Glitter]

Jessica Merizan wrote...

 Hey guys!
Patrick Weekes wrote a blog about how reputation (and Paragon/Renegade points) works in Mass Effect 3. Read and discuss here! Enjoy!

I should go. 

I love you for saying that.

[breyant]

I approve of this new system.

Thank you!

[stonbw1]

Mich-cz wrote...

It seems great in a first but if unlocking those choices is based on general reputation score now why to have paragon/renegade options in a first place?
Now it doesn't matter how you acted (paragon/renegade) during the game => no consequences of your actions (because paragon/renegade ratio is no use now and it's only cosmetic).

Really great design choice (*irony*) - you can easily scrap whole paragon/renegade concept and leave only reputatation now :/

I hope you're wrong, but I fear you may be right.  The "save" for this problem would be that IF your reputation is high enough and IF your para/rene score is high enough, certain missions/outcomes would be uniquely available.  For instance, if you've put the time to boost reputation and para, then maybe there's a third option to resolve a sticky situation beyond the traditional two-sided option.  Similarly, maybe if reputation and rene are high, a NPC like a Helena Blake appears and ask you to be apart of her smuggling operation, wherein such wouldn't be available for a goodie two-shoes paragon

[Eire Icon]

There’s no penalty for mixing Paragon and Renegade: In Mass Effect 2, if you wanted to get the hardest Charm options, you had to play an almost completely Paragon character. We intended many of those Charms to be fun Easter eggs, but many players felt like they had to play pure Paragon to avoid being penalized by the loss of a dialog option. In Mass Effect 3, your Reputation score determines both Charm and Intimidate options, and that score is determined by adding your Paragon and Renegade scores together. You’re still rewarded for being a completionist player and doing as much content as you can, but you can do it as a Paragon or Renegade player without penalty.

Really pleased about this

[xentar]

didymos1120 wrote...

And how do you get that?

OK, back from work, time for me to answer the question.

First of all, for all the well-known reasons, I am a strong opponent of the ME series morality system and its influence on persuasion, and would prefer to see it gone, no irony or sarcasm intended.

What I believe happens here is either all Shepards are now of equal persuasive ability as long as they do a given amount of sidequests (except for a 20% or lower bonus for advancing one of the proficiency skills), which makes every Shepard less unique. Or some decisions (that give you low or no reputation) will now be avoided the same way as those that didn't give you any morality points in the previous games.

edit: so, level 48 gives you 133 skill points?

Modifié par xentar, 02 mars 2012 - 02:40 .

[frylock23]

That's sooo much better. Nothing was more frustrating than to know that I was almost never going to have a 100% loyal crew thanks to the Jack/Miranda confrontation unless I jumped through hoops to make sure I triggered it at exactly the right time to salvage both thanks to the old Paragon/Renegade system. As a result, only one of my four Jacks is actually still loyal and of the remaining three, one may actually be dead.

[obie191970]

frylock23 wrote...

That's sooo much better. Nothing was more frustrating than to know that I was almost never going to have a 100% loyal crew thanks to the Jack/Miranda confrontation unless I jumped through hoops to make sure I triggered it at exactly the right time to salvage both thanks to the old Paragon/Renegade system. As a result, only one of my four Jacks is actually still loyal and of the remaining three, one may actually be dead.

That's why Miranda's loyalty quest was always the last thing I did before the IFF.  Anyway, I really dig the new system and will work out well with the Renegon/Paragade builds.

[tch2296]

I think you guys made a great decision by not penalizing players for playing a mix between paragon and renegade.

For a lot of the decisions in Mass Effect 2, my decisions were artificially pushed in one direction or another simply because I wanted to get my renegade points built up as big as possible to unlock more Intimidate options and Renegade interrupts. I often made decisions that I felt bad or guilty about just so I could unlock more intimidate options.

Now that charm and intimidate rely on overall reputation rather than Renegade or Paragon points, I can truly make decisions based on what I feel is right, not just what's gonna get me the most Renegade points, which is going to allow me to connect with Shepard more effectively and increase my emotoinal investment in my decisions.

Definitely an awesome idea.

[xX N7 Xx]

Sounds similar to Dragon Age 2 where you had to do a certain amount of things to build up reputation. If im correct everybody should know Shepard by now and should love him. Or maybe the arrival had something to do with it....

[Saberchic]

Mich-cz wrote...

It seems great in a first but if unlocking those choices is based on general reputation score now why to have paragon/renegade options in a first place?
Now it doesn't matter how you acted (paragon/renegade) during the game => no consequences of your actions (because paragon/renegade ratio is no use now and it's only cosmetic).

Really great design choice (*irony*) - you can easily scrap whole paragon/renegade concept and leave only reputatation now :/

They didn't scrap the paragon/renegade concept. They improved it.

The player will still have the choice to pick paragon or renegade options, so it's still in there. Only now, players aren't railroaded into only playing a certian way.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Paragon favoritism confirmed...  They apparently never heard a single Renegade complaint.

All of their improvements (where they listened to the fans) were based on Paragon concerns...

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 02 mars 2012 - 04:34 .

[Ricvenart]

Close call not saying the day it's released. (See you next....)

Sound's cool, glad to hear of all the changes and 3 actions on the left? guess that'll calm some worries.

@Mr. Gotega: No of course this in no way benefits renegade or renegon or paragade players at all, just paragon.... *face palm*

Hope theres no "I'm a Spectre" moments but only if you are renegade with this system.

Modifié par Ricvenart, 02 mars 2012 - 04:39 .

[MrM0nium]

This new system makes a lot of sense on paper! Nice overhaul of the already potent morality-system!

[Mr. Gogeta34]

When were the Renegade's "extreme steps" ever "required to get the job done?"

The series has never validated a Renegade choice as being "required" to get the job done (yet alone to get the best results)... Renegade steps have always resulted in an outcome worse than the Paragon alternative...

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 02 mars 2012 - 04:43 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

@Mr. Gotega: No of course this in no way benefits renegade or renegon or paragade players at all, just paragon.... *face palm*

You missed the point... no Renegade system complaints/issues were addressed... only Paragon ones.

-Paragon players didn't want to taint themselves with Renegade points.
-Fans wanted all the Paragon options available.
-The awesome blue button is now available to all (instead of having to worry about being stuck with non-Paragon options)

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 02 mars 2012 - 04:51 .

[Sardart]

Outstsanding Reputation system upgrade !
Exactly what I always wanted for. That will bring massive freedom !!

I'm so glad this is my first pre-ordered game.

Modifié par Sardart, 02 mars 2012 - 04:47 .

[NM_Che56]

If I understand this system, which I think I do, then this will be very liberating and awesome.

You get access to P/R options based soley on how bad **** you are (i.e., your swag, your rep, your mojo) which is not determined based on whether or not you consistently apply P or R choices.

HYPOTHETICAL!!!! I AM MAKING THESE UP!!!

A) Kill off a planet to take out a major Reaper command center = Renegade

Infiltrate the command center of said planet and try and take it out with minimal casualty = Paragon

Your success in doing either A or B = Rep.

[daftPirate]

I was more pleased to see how your abilities can be evolved by (that was level 48, right?). From there to level sixty ought to max out two or even three other skills? This I like.

[aksoileau]

It's great, you get a global rep, but you can still be a saint or a douche and suffer the consequences of both.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

aksoileau wrote...

It's great, you get a global rep, but you can still be a saint or a douche and suffer the consequences of both.

You don't "suffer" the consequences of being a saint.  The blue button always wins... even over pragmatism (whenever a Renegade choice is actually pragmatic)

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 02 mars 2012 - 05:06 .

[mitthrawuodo]

Hmmm, i know this offers better freedom but I'm worried there'll be less rewards as you can't have separate dialogues based on this system or can you

[Nashiktal]

Repearized Miranda wrote...



I understand that and I hope it's fixes this, I do, And as you said, the neutral answers got you no points. I wonder why?

"Mom, can I have this cookie?" You can't tell me the child is not looking for a definitive answer! If you don't give it one, it's going to continue to bug you unless you Paragon: Give him/her the cookie Renegade: Tell the child, "no!" "I'll think about it." is pretty much a masked maybe!

If you always respond with "Maybe!", the child will more than likely not ask you for anything else because those "Maybe!" become perceived "no's" and don't dare start badgering or they will certainly become definitive! 

If there had been a middle option regarding any of the big choices in ME1 or ME2 (these being on the right side of the dialogue wheel). How many would honestly pick the middle answer: Let's go kick some Reaper tail/You guys go, I'll stay behind/Let them destroy Earth.

IOW, the middle option is the maybe part and maybe is like almost: It doesn't count! Are you in or are you out? That's why it was worth nothing!

Neutrality means "I don't care!" Who are you rooting for? Well, I like/hate both teams, so I don't really care!

Now, if I don't care happened to be a red or blue choice (worded appropriately) then, it should be worth something as the VA will probably will exude the appropriate emotion (as directed), but to not make this a VA war, the appropriate dialogue shall saffice.


I do care. Too many lives were lost. Not ... one ... more
Meh.
Why don't we just cut our damn loses

Since it's worth something now though, just imagine the NPCs involved in that situation annoying the hell out of you, asking for a definitive answer. They may not like a no and mi=ay not like a yes, but say "Maybe!" and well - just prepare yourself. Do you really want that for whatever the value?

You are over simplifying neutrality here. To be fair, "neutrality" in ME isn't actually being neutral, we just call it that because its not paragon or renegade. Neutrality is actually the "pragmatic" shep, at least more upfront. The middle option is usually the one where shep makes no assumptions, or finds the "third option".

A great example is during Tali's loyalty mission. Faced with her father being dishonered, tali pleads for you to not use the evidence to clear her name. As such shep is faced with three options THAT WORK.

1. Use the paragon interupt that talks up tali, and lists her achievements in the hopes of appealing to the admiral's better nature.

2. Use the renegade approach in which you decry the entire trial as the sham it is.

3. The third option, rally the crowd and have the quarian people fight for tali's rights.

The third option is not tied to paragon or renegade at all, (well kinda but I will get to that) but rather a few factors that rely on earlier choices made. Rallying the crowd requires two people to be alive and/or sane to work. Veetor needs to have been safely taken home to the quarians (and not cerberus) and Kal'reeger has to be alive.

If those two conditions are met, no matter your P and R score, tali will not be exiled and thus her loyalty is assured while preventing her exile.

In more "normal" conversations, the "neutral" option is also the non-combative, accepting option. Mordin's loyalty mission is a good example of this. If you use paragon options in his loyalty mission you are usually decrying him, calling him a monster and generally acting like an ass to him. Choose the renegade and you agree with him (a little too much in my opinion) tearing down the krogans and generally agreeing with mordin (for the wrong reasons, at least that is how mordin see's it.)

The nuetral path? You take the "professional" way and shelf most of the issues for now. You stay focused on the mission and you don't make assumptions. Its a little more boring, but its a legitimate option.

[xentar]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

@Mr. Gotega: No of course this in no way benefits renegade or renegon or paragade players at all, just paragon.... *face palm*

You missed the point... no Renegade system complaints/issues were addressed... only Paragon ones.

-Paragon players didn't want to taint themselves with Renegade points.
-Fans wanted all the Paragon options available.
-The awesome blue button is now available to all (instead of having to worry about being stuck with non-Paragon options)

Actually, my complaint was that I couldn't choose the renegade ones...

[DaJe]

I never really thought about the paragon/renegade system as "reputation". Reputation should change how people react to Shepard, in no way what Shepard can do and say.

But I really like the improvements they made. Now it will be much more natural to make decisions.