232 réponses à ce sujet

[Sailears]

Reputation points that aren’t Paragon or Renegade don’t get their own
color – they make the bar get bigger while keeping the same red/blue
ratio.

Aha. I was wondering how that worked. Now all has become clear.

[Giantdeathrobot]

This and the launch trailer in one day? Bioware loves us.

[MissOuJ]

Cool post! Also, thanks! Love for Paragade players is always a good thing!

Modifié par MissOuJ, 02 mars 2012 - 07:04 .

[Bentisto]

This is very good news!!

[Raizo]

I'm glad someone finally explained how the Reputation system works. I think I get it now.

[Hirdas]

I realy like this change

[cindercatz]

Sounds excellent.

[Natureguy85]

I didn't mind the old system because of the original explanation I got. They made it so that you had to actually develop your character over the course of the game into someone who WOULD use that response. That said, the interrupts in ME2, being VERY entertaining, did not require you to be a certain level of paragon or renegade, unless I am mistaken. I just didn't like how in a first play-through you would get to conversations and have no chance of having earned enough points in either to get the option.

On the other hand, this new system allows you to react to situations individually, depending on the circumstances. I hope they added more interrupts and more effects on the game from these decisions.

[Arppis]

I like this, now I can take Renegade option when it feels more apt to the sittulation.

I never was pure Paragon player to begin with, I always picked the ones that I knew would help me with my overall goal: Making as big army as possible against Reapers (and ofcourse prevent my enemies getting an edge to ruin my plans). 

Modifié par Arppis, 02 mars 2012 - 10:22 .

[Natureguy85]

Has Bioware ever discussed why they have stuck with the two separate meters for paragon/renegade rather than one balance bar like KOTOR for example? Just curious on their thoughts.

[Arppis]

Natureguy85 wrote...

Has Bioware ever discussed why they have stuck with the two separate meters for paragon/renegade rather than one balance bar like KOTOR for example? Just curious on their thoughts.

I think it's there to show how renegade/paragon you have been.

[didymos1120]

Natureguy85 wrote...

Has Bioware ever discussed why they have stuck with the two separate meters for paragon/renegade rather than one balance bar like KOTOR for example? Just curious on their thoughts.

Maybe because they are two separate things as far as the game is concerned?  You don't lose Paragon points when you make a Renegade choice, or vice versa, so why would they have a UI that doesn't reflect that?

[Han Shot First]

There’s no penalty for mixing Paragon and Renegade: In Mass Effect 2, if you wanted to get the hardest Charm options, you had to play an almost completely Paragon character. We intended many of those Charms to be fun Easter eggs, but many players felt like they had to play pure Paragon to avoid being penalized by the loss of a dialog option. In Mass Effect 3, your Reputation score determines both Charm and Intimidate options, and that score is determined by adding your Paragon and Renegade scores together. You’re still rewarded for being a completionist player and doing as much content as you can, but you can do it as a Paragon or Renegade player without penalty.

Awesome.

Rather than playing as a pure Paragon or pure Renegade I like to roleplay a Shepard that evaluates each moral decision he is faced with, and acts on it based on what he thinks is the best and most practical course of action at that moment, rather than following a single morality template. In fact of the two examples given for decisions that award paragon and renegade points, I can see my Shepard doing both of them. He'd totally be the type to help the desperate refugee while ordering an orbital bombardment on the human colony, to prevent those colonists from later being turned into husks.

So with that in mind I'm glad to hear that paragade and renegon playthroughs are just as viable as the more pure white hats or black hats.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 02 mars 2012 - 11:29 .

[ubermensch007]

So by uniting the Paragon & renegade Scores, has BioWare just made everyone a Paragade Player whether they wanted to be or not?

IWhat I hope to see with the "Reputation Meter" is for Commander Shepard to be able to fail at objectives.Like saving the krogan female (for example) in the ME3 Demo. What I want to know BioWare is will ME3 allow players to not "Retry" but "Continue" on with the story.If things don't turn out as best one would hope.

The biggest problem that I still see with  Game Developers. Is that you all tend to still be stuck on the idea that "The player must win, before being allowed to progress in the story.No matter how many "Retries" it takes until you get it right!

But as an Interactive Narrative. Wouldn't it be more interesting if Shepard could fail at Major Objectives.And his failures as well as his successes would affect the Reputation Meter and how people see him.
As either a "Go to guy." Or someone to stay clear of. <_< I've saved the krogan female everytime thus far.But it should be possible to fail to save her.And see where the story goes from there.It just be a Game-Over Screen that pops up.

I still think that it is a travesty that in Mass Effect 2 Shep 'could not' fail to Recruit anyone on his list.Garrus & Tali both should have been able to die during thier Recruitment Missions.It would have been awesome if after succeding in recruiting Thane Krios.If you join Jacob and talk smack to Thane after you just recruited him.He bounces...If he would be like -- F you... I'm out of here.

Shepard could only fail, 2 of the 12 Loyalty Missions that he or she goes on.That's ridiculous.

[Selene Moonsong]

At last, an elegant, simple, and balanced reputation system that all Paragon, Paragrade, Neutral, Renagon, and Renegade fans can enjoy!

[didymos1120]

ubermensch007 wrote...

So by uniting the Paragon & renegade Scores, has BioWare just made everyone a Paragade Player whether they wanted to be or not?

No, they're not united.  If you don't use renegade options, you don't get renegade points, and you don't get any red in the meter.  It's just a UI change, where it displays them in ratio form, and  the general rep gains don't count as either Paragon or Renegade.

Modifié par didymos1120, 03 mars 2012 - 12:53 .

[Montana]

Renegons and Paragades rejoice!

This system seems like something I'm going to like!

Well done BW

[Repearized Miranda]

Nashiktal wrote...

Repearized Miranda wrote...



I understand that and I hope it's fixes this, I do, And as you said, the neutral answers got you no points. I wonder why?

"Mom, can I have this cookie?" You can't tell me the child is not looking for a definitive answer! If you don't give it one, it's going to continue to bug you unless you Paragon: Give him/her the cookie Renegade: Tell the child, "no!" "I'll think about it." is pretty much a masked maybe!

If you always respond with "Maybe!", the child will more than likely not ask you for anything else because those "Maybe!" become perceived "no's" and don't dare start badgering or they will certainly become definitive! 

If there had been a middle option regarding any of the big choices in ME1 or ME2 (these being on the right side of the dialogue wheel). How many would honestly pick the middle answer: Let's go kick some Reaper tail/You guys go, I'll stay behind/Let them destroy Earth.

IOW, the middle option is the maybe part and maybe is like almost: It doesn't count! Are you in or are you out? That's why it was worth nothing!

Neutrality means "I don't care!" Who are you rooting for? Well, I like/hate both teams, so I don't really care!

Now, if I don't care happened to be a red or blue choice (worded appropriately) then, it should be worth something as the VA will probably will exude the appropriate emotion (as directed), but to not make this a VA war, the appropriate dialogue shall saffice.


I do care. Too many lives were lost. Not ... one ... more
Meh.
Why don't we just cut our damn loses

Since it's worth something now though, just imagine the NPCs involved in that situation annoying the hell out of you, asking for a definitive answer. They may not like a no and mi=ay not like a yes, but say "Maybe!" and well - just prepare yourself. Do you really want that for whatever the value?

You are over simplifying neutrality here. To be fair, "neutrality" in ME isn't actually being neutral, we just call it that because its not paragon or renegade. Neutrality is actually the "pragmatic" shep, at least more upfront. The middle option is usually the one where shep makes no assumptions, or finds the "third option".

A great example is during Tali's loyalty mission. Faced with her father being dishonered, tali pleads for you to not use the evidence to clear her name. As such shep is faced with three options THAT WORK.

1. Use the paragon interupt that talks up tali, and lists her achievements in the hopes of appealing to the admiral's better nature.

2. Use the renegade approach in which you decry the entire trial as the sham it is.

3. The third option, rally the crowd and have the quarian people fight for tali's rights.

The third option is not tied to paragon or renegade at all, (well kinda but I will get to that) but rather a few factors that rely on earlier choices made. Rallying the crowd requires two people to be alive and/or sane to work. Veetor needs to have been safely taken home to the quarians (and not cerberus) and Kal'reeger has to be alive.

If those two conditions are met, no matter your P and R score, tali will not be exiled and thus her loyalty is assured while preventing her exile.

In more "normal" conversations, the "neutral" option is also the non-combative, accepting option. Mordin's loyalty mission is a good example of this. If you use paragon options in his loyalty mission you are usually decrying him, calling him a monster and generally acting like an ass to him. Choose the renegade and you agree with him (a little too much in my opinion) tearing down the krogans and generally agreeing with mordin (for the wrong reasons, at least that is how mordin see's it.)

The nuetral path? You take the "professional" way and shelf most of the issues for now. You stay focused on the mission and you don't make assumptions. Its a little more boring, but its a legitimate option.

That's the point. People moaned that it wasn't legit! (Neutral didn't net me points - whether it be 0 or +1 -1)

It meant nothing in the concrete sense and that what I'm talking about!

I'm not saying that every option presented, that there needs to be an immediate response, but again, how do most people respond to "I don't care!" vs. "I don't give a damn!" - especially in tone? (And both could clearly be neutral options, FAS!)

There the scene before you launch the SM:

Joker: are you ready, Commander?
Shepard Give me a minute!
Joker: *Sigh* Hit the map whenever you're already.

Did you really expect him to say (although he could have):

Joker: Great! More time to flirt with EDI! I'm cool with this!

That wasn't a "neutral" option in either sense, but I don't think he would have been just as giddy if Shepard said: "Hell no! I'll tell you when I'm ready! (Which would be red if a third option was presented)

Of course, it's legit; however, when it's tied to the P/R (masked by the rep meter now) - everybody is gonna "untie" it; so it's still means nothing in terms of choice. I'm revered despite letting everybody die (Renegade) or I'm feared despite letting everybody live (Paragon). Good people get bad reactions, just as bad people get good reactions; however, I still feel like we're going to be shoehorned into playing one way or the other - regardless of how much the character doesn't care or will think about it!

I'm not complaining about it, but something tells me it'll happens. If the dialogue points in the new meter are any indication. (I need this many blue/red points to get these options.)

I don't think I'm oversimplifying anything; I'm simply saying that some things don't necessarily need fixing or be guised like they're fixed. If we understood what they meant from the beginning at least a little bit, there'd be no need to "drastically" change things or pretend to have done so. FTR, I'm not slighting them!

[Nathan Redgrave]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

When were the Renegade's "extreme steps" ever "required to get the job done?"

The series has never validated a Renegade choice as being "required" to get the job done (yet alone to get the best results)... Renegade steps have always resulted in an outcome worse than the Paragon alternative...

Rather like your use of arbitrary bold text in this instance, which is done in the mindset of "I believe this to be the most effective way to catch people's attention in a sea of non-bolded text, never mind that it makes me look a bit like I'm seeking more attention than my post really deserves," Renegade options are options the player takes in the mindset that morally questionable or inordinately brutal methods are the most efficient, idiot-proof ways to ensure the job gets done with no loose ends to worry about. The issue is that most of those loose ends have a tendency to come back as helpful elements later in the series, for example, the Rachni Queen promising aid against the Reapers when you meet her emissary on Illium in Mass Effect 2. Even when they don't, they have a way of working out for the better in an entirely peripheral way (the colony of Zhu's Hope surviving, or Helena Blake retiring from crime to become a sort-of "social worker" on Omega).

There are only a few instances where Renegade choices have unquestionably positive impacts; most of them are Interrupts. Only two major Renegade options come to mind as being good things in the long run of ME3, but I can't say which ones without breaking the "no spoilers" rule.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Arppis wrote...

Natureguy85 wrote...

Has Bioware ever discussed why they have stuck with the two separate meters for paragon/renegade rather than one balance bar like KOTOR for example? Just curious on their thoughts.

I think it's there to show how renegade/paragon you have been.

The idea is that you can fill one without losing points in the other. Theoretically this allows you to mix it up and be Paragade or Renegon, as the fan-lingo calls such characters, and for the most part that works in ME1 because it doesn't take that long at all to fill the bars and you don't even need a full morality bar at all to unlock all of the levels in the Persuasion skills. ME1 also provides a number of "Renegade" ways to perform otherwise "Paragon" actions, the easiest example being to use Intimidate to force Lorik Qui'in (which nets you a significant Renegade bonus) to help the Noveria internal affairs agent Gianna Parasini prosecute Administrator Anoleis (which gets you a large Paragon bonus and a free Charm level-up). The "whole-hog Renegade" option in that instance is unquestionably brutal rather than "mixed"--you have the option to rat Gianna out to Anoleis, resulting in the two of them shooting each other dead. Shepard then steals Anoleis's garage pass before the port authority gets there, and says he only just found them. (That gets you a massive Renegade boost and a free level-up point to Intimidation.)

The system only gets patchy in Mass Effect 2 because of a few major design flaws:
- Charm and Intimidate, rather than being tied to skills you put level-up points into and only "unlock" by reaching specific morality-meter levels, are tied directly to your Paragon and Renegade meters, so actually leveling them up as high as you can is more of a priority.
- The morality meters fill much more slowly, and without gaining as many points as possible and leveling up your "class" skill for the general Paragon/Renegade percentage bonus it gives you, it's nearly impossible to get the higher-end persuasion options without going whole-hog Paragon or Renegade. The morality bonuses that imported ME1 files bring in mitigate this somewhat, as an extra 100+ points toward your morality meters at the start gives you a lot more latititude to mix up your moral choices during the early stages of the game.
- The morality requirements are based not on how many missions you've done or how many key story missions you've done or anything sensible like that, but on how many of the game's four city areas you've visited (Omega, the Citadel, Illium, and Tuchanka). Any player who visits all four towns as early as they can will find themselves inexplicably unable to take advantage of a lot of persuasion options they might otherwise have been able to make use of, for an entirely arbitrary reason.

This system looks like it might combine the relative simplicity of ME2's system (i.e. "the more you do, the more influence you have") with the flexibility that ME1's allowed.

[element eater]

this system sounds like a big improvement and will hopefully allow for players to behave like a more rounded individual

[Volumes]

Looks awesome.

In the demo I was curious about the reputation bar, but thanks for explaining. Definitely a good change, and I have to add; I was one of those players who had to go pure Paragon and got annoyed when randomly given Renegade points.

[rapscallioness]

Loving this! Thank you!

[Doug M]

Thanks for doing this, Bioware. As much as I like playing the hero type, there are simply times where kicking some smarmy jackass mercenary out a window would be so much more gratifying. Glad I'll be able to do this and not have to worry about getting locked out of conversation options.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

When were the Renegade's "extreme steps" ever "required to get the job done?"

The series has never validated a Renegade choice as being "required" to get the job done (yet alone to get the best results)... Renegade steps have always resulted in an outcome worse than the Paragon alternative...

Rather like your use of arbitrary bold text in this instance, which is done in the mindset of "I believe this to be the most effective way to catch people's attention in a sea of non-bolded text, never mind that it makes me look a bit like I'm seeking more attention than my post really deserves," Renegade options are options the player takes in the mindset that morally questionable or inordinately brutal methods are the most efficient, idiot-proof ways to ensure the job gets done with no loose ends to worry about. The issue is that most of those loose ends have a tendency to come back as helpful elements later in the series, for example, the Rachni Queen promising aid against the Reapers when you meet her emissary on Illium in Mass Effect 2. Even when they don't, they have a way of working out for the better in an entirely peripheral way (the colony of Zhu's Hope surviving, or Helena Blake retiring from crime to become a sort-of "social worker" on Omega).

There are only a few instances where Renegade choices have unquestionably positive impacts; most of them are Interrupts. Only two major Renegade options come to mind as being good things in the long run of ME3, but I can't say which ones without breaking the "no spoilers" rule.

Incorrect regarding my use of bold text.  I bold for emphasis, not attention... if I wanted "attention," I'd have used all caps or a larger font.  And don't worry, quoting my bolded font doesn't make your post "look more important than it really deserves."  You're just responding to me... as I'm responding to you.  It's no bigger deal than that.

I don't classify interrupts as "Renegade choices" and I don't consider "Paragon interrupts" to be choices either... they're morality QTEs.  By choice I'm specifically referring to the dialogue wheel... where you have... choices.

And as you've said, the fact remains that every Renegade "pragmatic" precaution has proven thusfar to be a waste of time compared to a Paragon alternative choice.  Nothing negative happens for taking the Paragon side on things... killers can go free villains can be trusted... as long as the color used is Blue.  There has never been a case where the Red yields a superior outcome... while the Blue always yields the greatest outcome... greater than Renegade... and greater than Neutral.

That is the really broken part of their system.. for those who roleplay in their games and become aware of it.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 03 mars 2012 - 07:41 .