34 réponses à ce sujet

[Jacob Dante]

Funny, but true.  I am posting this for some much needed help.  I have been gaming for some 20 years and there is nothing I like better then a good RPG and this is one of the best.  Thank you Bioware.  However, in that time I have remained content to let other more capable people make custom content that I could then mess around with and enjoy, but not this time.  I specifically bought DAO on the PC for the toolset, because I have good ideas and I want to be able to do some things for myself.  I played the game through once and then got the toolset and thought I would start simple.  I wanted to take to mage witch's robe and remove those silly fur shoulder pads and collar thinging so if was just a tight skimpy dress.  But after several days of reading how-tos, wikis, and forum posts, not only is my head spinning, but I thing I understand things less then when I started.  Is it that dificult to take an image already in the game and take away a few pieces?  I can't even figure out how to open the image for editing.  I admit I am a total newbie, but I have a brain and I should be able to do this, but sadly I got nothing.  If anyone has some suggestions, maybe they did the same thing or something close and can give me some pointers.  I just don't want to sit on the sidelines anymore, I want to contribute.

[Sederien]

My suggestion is to sit back for a week, relax, enjoy the game and write down a list of everything you want to change. When the new patch for the toolkit is completed and the campaign resources released, I foresee a lot more activity / help on these forums.



At the moment, we as a community are missing developer examples to learn from so only a select few individuals are going to have the patience and ability to create even simple mods at this time.



Until this is rectified, I myself am in the dark as to how to make even some simple scripting changes as I would like to and I can only offer soft words encouragement.

[xcorps]

Our situations are the same Jacob. I bought the game hoping for a toolset that went beyond the limits of NWN. Instead we have a toolset that's as complicated and unintuitive as 3dsm, and is broken to boot. Here's hoping some patch love will open things up.

[Matthew Young CT]

It's a dev tool, used to make the game. Of course it's complicated. You want power, you get complexity. Such is life.



Sounds like you want to edit the robe model & texture. So look up how to do that (endless tutorials all over the net). Not as easy as editing an image, but simple images haven't been used in games for a long time:)

[Adinos]

Actually, editing clothes is one of the few things we cannot do properly yet, so it is not surprising there are no examples or tutorials......yet.



What you would need to do is to export the model in question (using something like tazpn's export tool) - start your favourite 3D modeling tool, edit the model and export it again from the 3D tool.



What complicates things is the fact that clothes and armour are not static pieces attached to the outside of an animated character model, but they *are*actually the animated character model itself - they are not made of separate pieces like shoulderpads, sleeves and so on, but are just a single model - so you cannot remove a piece without actually editing the model.



There are various advantages to this approach, but it makes things harder for community modelers - for example, if you create a new armour from scratch, you are expected to make 21 different versions of it (3 LOD versions for the 7 different race/gender combinations).



Now, the problem is that while we can import/export static (non-animated) models, import of animated models (like mage robes) is currently not possible - we are working on it - but we only got permission to start a month ago, and this takes time.



So, start collecting ideas, maybe make sketches .and such - you will get the functionality you need (soon, I hope).

[xcorps]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

It's a dev tool, used to make the game. Of course it's complicated. You want power, you get complexity. Such is life.

Sounds like you want to edit the robe model & texture. So look up how to do that (endless tutorials all over the net). Not as easy as editing an image, but simple images haven't been used in games for a long time:)

Complicated would be ok.

Complicated, unintuitive and broken...not so much.

[EJ42]

If you want to do what you're asking, and want to do it well, then here's what you're going to need...

Autodesk® 3ds Max® 2010
for Windows XP/Vista

with Subscription Electronic Download - $3,990.00
with Subscription Boxed Shipment - $3,990.00
without Subscription Electronic Download - $3,495.00
without Subscription Boxed Shipment - $3,495.00

[Ranlas]

Or another, not rediculously priced 3D modeller that also works with the exporter tool.

[Adinos]

While 3DS Max is probably the "best" (in the sense that it was used to create the original assets, and the mapping between 3DSMax and DA should be easy, XSI modtool and Blender should have all the required functionality, and ... well, it is hard to beat their price.



As for export support for those programs...there is some support now, and full support should be available eventually.

[ChewyGumball]

When trying to learn something like a toolset, it REALLY helps to have examples and reference materials to learn from. However, the number of these kinds of resources is very small, and was even smaller at the release of the toolset. Since this is the case the only thing you can really do is wait for people to document the things you wish to do, or to go mucking around yourself (which can be very frustrating as it seems you have learned). Having said that, this is a particularly unforgiving toolset with regards to people who have never modded before, and the community's exposure to it has been very limited due to the amount of time it has been available so the only option you really have is to wait for people with more experience to figure things out and document them.



Also, you do not need a subscription to use 3dsmax, you can get a single year licence for much less, and if you are a student you can get it for a very reasonable price. However, if you are only doing modeling I would suggest a free tool as you will never need 99% of what 3dsmax offers. In this case you could use the tools Adinos suggests, or GMax which is basically 3dsmax 4 with some limitations.



I have created a script which works with 3dsmax and gmax which exports your models into files ready to be compiled into the editor, however it does not support animations as of yet so that may sway your decision in tools, however tzpan has a tool which will take certain file formats (fbx and 3ds I believe) into equally ready to be compiled files if you wish to use another modeling application.

[FalloutBoy]

Just like you wouldn't expect a programmer to be able to perform major surgery, don't expect to be able to just jump in and make something awesome without a lot of practice. Believe it or not, game developers work really hard to perfect their skills everyday. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

[Lord Mephisto]

I'm not sure if I quite agree with your comparison, FalloutBoy.



Medical experts produce lots of equipment, drugs and other tools non-experts easily use every day. We are not suppoesed to be developers, "only" to be using their tools. And I think a fair comparison would be to expect some things to be made easy for the user. After all, the toolset is a product, even though more or less free.



With that said, it would be very unfair to expect too much. All I am saying is that we shouldn't expect too little either.

[FalloutBoy]

It was an oversimplification, but I find it frustrating to see so many people in this forum (not necessarily this OP of this thread) who have no clue what it takes to make a game, and think they can boot up the toolset and crap out something amazing without taking any time to learn.

[Talian Kross]

No need to defend yourself, FalloutBoy. I think your comparison was incredibly astute and right on target.



Speaking as a professional programmer myself, I find it amusing--and insulting, too, actually--that kids today (I'm not referring to the original poster, just "gamers" as a whole) think this is all done magically with no skill, experience, or training required.

[EJ42]

Ranlas wrote...

Or another, not rediculously priced 3D modeller that also works with the exporter tool.

I'm sure LdV could have done the Mona Lisa in crayon too, but...yeah.

[ChewyGumball]

Comparing modeling programs is more like comparing brands of paint, not different mediums like paint and crayon...

[A1x2e3l]

Hi, colleague Jacob!

I have quite similar background and therefore similar
problems and frustrations.

I do not think that a tool used by game developers (a team
of professionals, experts) should be the same as a modding tool released for
public with very variable (or any) expertise in game design. The “excuses”
could be: modern 3D games are very complex and even a “simple” modification
requires professional skills; it is faster/easier to release a tool as it is
without any need of “simplification”, basically programming another product;
few modders that have sufficient education would be able to use all power of
their tool.. I am finding that at least odd that DA:O produces/developers are
relaying on community programmers (even encouraging and helping them) to
“crack” game codes, file formats, to reverse engineer a lot of not officially
released game features, create tools (e.g. 3D importers/exporters) that they
for whatever reasons cannot release. IMHO it would be more “honest” to release
a complete set of modding tools or nothing and declare the game as not
moddable. I love the game (and BG2 and NWN) but I bought it in a rush hoping
that Toolset will be equipped with 3ds Max exporters.

I am modding for fun when I have free time for that and
would like to see results of my “work” in the game as quick as possible. There
is no fun to spend two weeks in order to find out e.g. how to retexture.

Blender is free, few days ago they have released a new version (2.5 alpha)
with more user friendly interface:

http://www.blender.org/

Autodesk Softimage XSI Mod Tool 7.5 is also free for not commercial use:

http://usa.autodesk....7&siteID=123112

In case I understand you correctly (“Is it that dificult to
take an image already in the game and take away a few pieces?”). DA:O is not a
2D game that uses animated two-dimensional images, it is a 3D game that deals
with three-dimensional objects, geometry, volumes, meshes. PC/humanoid NPCs’
body/clothes/armor is build form several mesh pieces: face/head (and probably
closed helmets); hair (opened helmets); hands (gloves/gauntlets), and the rest
– torso with arms and legs. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to remove
something like pauldron without editing skinned (“animatable”, they are not
animated and do not contain animation data, they can be animated by the game
engine) using special software - 3D modelers like 3ds Max, Maya, XSI, Blender.

What can be done relatively easy is to retexture (probably
you are asking about that). I am a bad texturer (I cannot draw) and was not
interested in that aspect of modding, however, I have read on the Forum that
this is doable at leas as a replacer of original dds texture.


Adinos, do I understand you correctly that even Morrigan’s
robe, Duncan’s, Loghain’s or King Cailan’s armor (community modders have found
the way how to use this armor for PC) exist in the game in 21 variants? I
thought that it is possible to have gender/race specific clothes/armor without
crushing the game.

The role of LODs is clear. Can they use the same model by
the way? Yes this will be an abuse of game engine and computer, I know. Or they
should have totally different structure?

I do not think that it was clever to create the same
armor types (shape, textures) for all races: it is relatively easy to
distinguish historical European (Italian, French, English or German) armor even
of the same period. Medieval Middle Eastern, Japanese, Russian armor and clothes were
totally different from European.

Modifié par A1x2e3l, 26 novembre 2009 - 02:24 .

[Adinos]

A1x2e3l wrote...
 I am finding that at least odd that DA:O produces/developers are
relaying on community programmers (even encouraging and helping them) to
“crack” game codes, file formats, to reverse engineer a lot of not officially
released game features, create tools (e.g. 3D importers/exporters) that they
for whatever reasons cannot release.

Well, I do not think that was the original plan.  When I first offered to write model export/import tioools (back in 2008), BioWare was not interested, and I got the feeling they were planning to release their 3DSMax exporter together with the toolset - but still rely on the community to write tools for other programs and to export DA models to a format usable by the 3D applications.

At some point something changed - I have no inside information on this, but I guess that there was an "Ooops" moment at some time when someone at BioWare realized that the export tool used some 3rd party library that they did not have redistribution rights for - I don't know what kind of library that was - it might be XML-related, but could just as well have to do with cloth meshes or animation.  At any rate, back in October, BioWare invited a few people into the beta, specifically so they could work on model export/import issues.  Of course, I would have liked it to happen earlier - in that case the tools would have been ready by game release day, but anyhow, the tools are being developed now, and are steadily improving.

Adinos, do I understand you correctly that even Morrigan’s
robe, Duncan’s, Loghain’s or King Cailan’s armor (community modders have found
the way how to use this armor for PC) exist in the game in 21 variants?

Eh, good point - I should have said "Up to 21 versions".  However, if you want the new armour to be wearable by all races/genders, you need 7 versions of the model at least.  As far as the different LOD versions are concerned, that's more of a performance question.  NOt all models have 3 different LOD versions, so probably you can have just one - at the cost of some performance drop (if you have multiple high LOD models being displayed "far away" at the same time, the game/GPU will be wasting some cycles rendering the high LOD model, where a lower LOD version would have been more effective.

Modifié par Adinos, 26 novembre 2009 - 12:16 .

[Kozuka78]

What you want to do requires editing the robe model itself aswell as the textures to go with it. The programs that allow you to do this do not come included in the toolset, because they are stand alone applications. (3ds max, photoshop).



The dragon age toolset is barely even involved.

[A1x2e3l]

Adinos, thank you for clarifications. Those selected programmers started to work in October,
2008, or in October. 2009?

However, if you want the new armour to be wearable by
all races/genders, you need 7 versions of the model at least.

Actually I prefer race/gender unique armor: why female armor
should be used by a man? Historical armor was made for a specific person taking
into consideration his/her anthropometric parameters.

But why 7: 3 races x 2 genders = 6. What I am missing? Some
sort of a “storage/not-in-use” variant, but can this a simple box or even an
icon?

In case I am interested in a race/gender specific armor and
happy with performance (one LOD) could that be only one model, say for PC e.g.
human male cuirasse (yes, torso with arms and legs)?

Here is a clear official answer to my question about
exporters.

Astorax wrote:

The developers have said they will not spend the
resources crippling their importer/exporter tools, but instead would supply
models for reverse engineering to the community members working on those tools.
They have, and they're being worked on.

I am not happy with it, but I am "satisfied" and very impressed
by the manner the Forum moderator was dealing with our aggressive pressure:
tolerant, friendly, informed, honest, involved, eager to help… Great and very
professional work with the community, Astorax! Thank you so much!

BTW, I think we have scared doc.

Modifié par A1x2e3l, 27 novembre 2009 - 12:15 .

[Jacob Dante]

I have been away from my computer a couple of days and was amazed by the response I got. It makes me feel better that it is not just me and that there is a larger problem at work here. For those that felt I was being presumptuous in thinking I would be able to jump right in and do whatever I wanted, I never thought it would not require some hard work on my part. I just felt that there should be some beginner actions that I could start with and learn my way up to more complex acts. My main concern was the lack of a starting foothold as I am usually capable of tackling most new tasks with little know-how and a will to put in the work. I respect game developers and appreciate what they put on the market for people like me, and I would rather have a complex toolkit capable of remaking the entire game then a dumb down version, but I would also like access to the knowledge base that will allow me to at least learn to utilize a fraction of the toolkits power.



Well those are my two additional cents for those who want them.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

I very much hear you, OP. Bethesda's toolset spoiled me. Everything is drag and drop, it pretty much rocks. DAO's toolset seems to require scripts for every things. It's daunting when all you want it to tweak the game just a bit. Hang in though, in another couple weeks there will be some better tutorials out there.



I'm trying to add a merchant so I can shave a little time off my third play though... it's been agonizing and I still can't get anything to appear. :-(

[Jensonagain]

Jacob Dante wrote...

Funny, but true.  I am posting this for some much needed help.  I have been gaming for some 20 years and there is nothing I like better then a good RPG and this is one of the best.  Thank you Bioware.  However, in that time I have remained content to let other more capable people make custom content that I could then mess around with and enjoy, but not this time.  I specifically bought DAO on the PC for the toolset, because I have good ideas and I want to be able to do some things for myself.  I played the game through once and then got the toolset and thought I would start simple.  I wanted to take to mage witch's robe and remove those silly fur shoulder pads and collar thinging so if was just a tight skimpy dress.  But after several days of reading how-tos, wikis, and forum posts, not only is my head spinning, but I thing I understand things less then when I started.  Is it that dificult to take an image already in the game and take away a few pieces?  I can't even figure out how to open the image for editing.  I admit I am a total newbie, but I have a brain and I should be able to do this, but sadly I got nothing.  If anyone has some suggestions, maybe they did the same thing or something close and can give me some pointers.  I just don't want to sit on the sidelines anymore, I want to contribute.

Once they unlock the core campaign files you'll have a way to modify scripts instead of inventing them from scratch (which can take weeks of learning).

[A1x2e3l]

RinpocheSchnozberry
We, medical people, are not interested simply to play lego
(“drag and drop”), we want to be Gods, resurrect, reanimate, revive, assemble
from parts (remember Dr. Frankenstein). We would like to bring our self-made
content in the game and see it alive, acting.

I might be wrong but I suspect that these difficulties
(complex ToolSet, absence of exporters and game samples in Max format,
intention to keep modding activity under control: only one and official Forum,
obligatory logins everywhere including wiki docs for reading, etc ) were
created deliberately: BioWare is planning to have serious profit from DLC
produced by them similar to MMO games. With provided by them tools it would be
very difficult for not-professional modders to compete with the quality of
their purchasable add-ons created by a professional team that is equipped with
all tools and game recourses. They know very well what has happened with
Bethesda’s Morrowind and Oblivion: modders have created practically new games
that are significantly better than originals in all aspects.

Modifié par A1x2e3l, 28 novembre 2009 - 12:36 .

[Jacob Dante]

A1x2e3l wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry
We, medical people, are not interested simply to play lego
(“drag and drop”), we want to be Gods, resurrect, reanimate, revive, assemble
from parts (remember Dr. Frankenstein). We would like to bring our self-made
content in the game and see it alive, acting.

I might be wrong but I suspect that these difficulties
(complex ToolSet, absence of exporters and game samples in Max format,
intention to keep modding activity under control: only one and official Forum,
obligatory logins everywhere including wiki docs for reading, etc ) were
created deliberately: BioWare is planning to have serious profit from DLC
produced by them similar to MMO games. With provided by them tools it would be
very difficult for not-professional modders to compete with the quality of
their purchasable add-ons created by a professional team that is equipped with
all tools and game recourses. They know very well what has happened with
Bethesda’s Morrowind and Oblivion: modders have created practically new games
that are significantly better than originals in all aspects.

Well I can't blame a company who needs money to make games for me, to want to make money, but I remember reading Bioware's desire to give the community the opportunity to go crazy and really take this game in new directions.  I think a blanace can exist where non-hardcore modders can make some tweaks to improve their personal gaming experience; hardcore modders can gave the community crazy and eclectic stories, outfits, and specializations; and the game makers can give everyone first class, original story expanding content.

Modifié par Jacob Dante, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:08 .