34 réponses à ce sujet

[tazpn]

I think we all expected a little more after the hype and an actual beta of the toolset. The toolset is really powerful and there are some really nicely done things in it that I never would have expected like version control.

I'm also somewhat surprised as well how difficult some tasks are that are really common in modding. Namely retexturing. I'm dumbfounded how difficult it is to do it when that is probably the number type of mod released in most games. They have the materialtype overrides which can alter tint but then those alter everything else about the item as well. If I want blue armor or something I select Drakescale and now my Rogue has to have 34 strength to wear it when all I want is lowlevel blue armor.

Anyway, they gave us a toolset which we can presumably grow into and not max out it abilities in 1 week which I guess is a good thing. And never underestimate the community. I never expected the UI to be moddable after learning how they did it but someone has already reverse engineered the actionscript and looks like maybe able to do something with it. The Oblivion didn't have true custom models for at least a 2-3 months if I recall correctly (me and gundalf wrote the max exporter, amorilia the blender one and neither was available until at least 3 months. The Civ4 one didn't either with skinned models because of no skeleton to work with).

[A1x2e3l]

All of us have to earn money, the problem is how: doing our
best or “cheating” clients/patients. 3-5minutes per patient in a working clinic
is not serious, release of a professional product for a general use as well
(imagine that all car dealers are selling only Formula I bollids or all
available on the market photocameras are sophisticated paparazzi guns). High
quality mod cannot be created without custom content and the majority of
mooders should be able to do that. “The client is always right”, than think
about him, his needs, abilities. Another common rule in business is “do not
sell(release) an half-finished(buggy) product”, polish it first, do your best,
be yourself satisfied with it, and they are asking to wait and for help of
community programmers... Not following these simple rules on top of the
“aggressive” advertising campaign does not contribute well to the image of the
respected by us company. I would not dare to write that in case I have some
doubts about BioWare good will to help modding community and their professional
competence in all aspects. I am grateful that they are listening to us and
constantly providing certain feedback. I know that this is not always the case,
just check other official game forums.

 I love the game and this makes my frustrations even
more painful




Tazpn, please, do not measure all from your point of view.
You are a genius, absolutely unique person. I am serious, thousands of modders
all around the world are daily using results of your hard work: Gambryo based
games, NWN2, now DA:O. I do not know any other examples of somebody being able to
change modding life of so many people, provide so much modding joy.

Modifié par A1x2e3l, 28 novembre 2009 - 05:29 .

[Phaenan]

While being a med gal myself and by no mean a programmer by trade or art (my code's being a proof of that) I'd say tazpn makes a very good point here : as yet the modding community is still at its very start. There are still many things "pioneers" have to learn by themselves before setting an example or at least gettign some kind of pointers. Give it a few weeks (or months) and pretty much everything should then be sorted out.

Modifié par Phaenan, 28 novembre 2009 - 06:27 .

[giskard44]

I think the toolkit will allow us to produce some excellent mods IF we can stay with it long enough to learn what we need to know. Thats the trick, having the patience to learn stuff that should have and could have been better designed and easier to follow.

The best way to descibe the toolkit is that its a french program that released in the english market without translating it or building in any defaults that would have speeded things up. So not only do you have to learn a different language but you have to create your own defaults.

I think thats a good way to describe it.

But if you stick with it, and learn  french and make your own defaults, I think you will be pleasantly surprised how easy it becomes to use. Level editing is especially easy if a little tedious when it comes to object placement.

So I will say this again. In my opinion, I think the toolkit will allow us to make some excellent mods but the learning curve requires some mountaineering training to over come first

Modifié par giskard44, 28 novembre 2009 - 06:29 .

[EJ42]

I'm a little bothered to hear that there is a whole set of people who bought the game specifically because of toolset hype.

I love the ability to mod my games just as much as the next guy, but this game stands very well on its own, even without a toolset.

[A1x2e3l]

I agree with you: we have to learn a lot. But I am sure that
many potential modders will quit (they will not wait: finish the game, see you)
because of the ToolSet complexity and lack of initial documentation (it as well
as tutorials including more video ones should be released simultaneously with
the ToolSet, it has no usual windows help either). Another reason for
frustrations is a difficult for a not-programmer installation procedure (my
firewall is always rebelling and I have no clue how to resolve that) as well as
often CTDs and unclear UI. Always doubting: I am an idiot, or this should be
like that, or it is a bug. Scripting is especially scary for not professionals.


IMHO programs like ToolSet should be usable by a single
person in all its features, it is not that easy to organize a team of modders
(different tastes, available time, sense of responsibility, etc.). Community
help. Well, many of my requests (not only on this Forum) were simply ignored, I
am relaying exclusively on myself.

french program that released in the english market

That’s a novel paradigm in marketing. But will it be successful?
Ok, let’s wait, and try to work together.




Players and modders are different customers: I have three
copies (CD scratches) of Morrowind and two copies of Oblivion, I am spending
all my free time on modding these games (many thanks to Tazpn) but have not yet
finished main quests of both. And now I am occasionally playing DA:O just to
learn what could be interesting to mod, I am still in Ostagar after two weeks of
playing.

Modifié par A1x2e3l, 28 novembre 2009 - 07:33 .

[FalloutBoy]

I think a lot of people had different ideas of what the toolset was going to be able to do. If you are looking to make a new module that uses existing assets but with new characters and quests, then it is no more difficult with this than it was with NWN 2. If you are looking to make a rideable 3-headed dragon that you can use in the OC to destroy the blight before it ever gets past Ostagar, you are going to be disappointed.

It a matter of figuring out what the toolset can do, then tailoring your expectations accordingly.

[A1x2e3l]

As every modder I have certain specialization, I am doing
what I like and what I can: being a bad texturer and a boring 3D modeler (I am
rather skilled in techniques) my preferences are PC/NPC animation and
“reshaping” existing models (I like variety of forms). I believe that it is
possible to realize my interests with ToolSet. However in Morrowind or Oblivion
I can place/test my work in the game with a couple of clicks in the TES
construction set and few transparent scripts. In case of DA:O without official
Max exporters, nearly no information about game animation control system,
scripting language pretty resembling C++ I am afraid that would be not so easy.

A valid question: why I am here? Well, there are several
reasons: I would like to try something new, I am taking a pause (I have been
modding the above mentioned games for years, and there are few moddable fantasy
RPGs, I do not like shooters); Tazpn has left our community and I faced serious
technical problems with the new animation approaches I would like to implement
(without his help this is simply not doable), etc. Anyhow, what I want to say
my decision was not spontaneous and painful by the way.

[Jacob Dante]

EJ42 wrote...

I'm a little bothered to hear that there is a whole set of people who bought the game specifically because of toolset hype.
I love the ability to mod my games just as much as the next guy, but this game stands very well on its own, even without a toolset.

I would like to clarify.  I would have bought this game no matter what.  I was excited the moment I heard about Bioware doing this project and I even read the book they released several months back in anticipation.  My main concern came with if my computer could handle the visuals and if my PS3 was a better choice for no laging.  I like that these cames are being released on the console and I want to support that, but even with the occasional lag, my computer can pump out way better graphic details and when I herad the ToolSet would be released for the PC version only, my mind was made up.

[Adinos]

A1x2e3l wrote...
IMHO programs like ToolSet should be usable by a single
person in all its features

Sorry, but that's not what it was designed for.  The toolset was designed by BioWare, for Bioware to create the DA game and to support their workflow when doing it.   THe toolset is designed to be used by a group of people with different skills, not a "one-man-master-of-everything-development-team".

You get the toolset used to build this particular game - not a generic toolset capable of building anything you can dream of.   Sure, some people will probably use the toolset to make things that BioWare never thought would be possible, but that is simply not the toolset's purpose.

Modifié par Adinos, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:22 .