22 réponses à ce sujet

[Shaughn78]

Looking for some ideas and general opinions.
What type of player can call themselves a necromancer or an expert of death magic?

Is this title solely reserved for arcane casters since they can choose to be a specality caster? Can a cleric who follows the domain of death or undeath consider themselves a divine necromancer? Then there is the warlock who has feats that improve and offer defence against necromantic magic. In the realm of role playing where is the best place to draw a line between someone who specalizes and focuses on death magic and someone who just dabbles in it?

This question has come up as I am working on an evil item for Risen Hero chapter 2. This item that can only be safely used by a necromancer, everyone else it will slowly kill unless a remove curse spell stops it. Originally I was going to do a quick check, did the arcane caster choose to specialize in necromancy. It would have been quick and easy, but that function is broken. So now I am looking at various aspects of the character to define them as a necromancer. Prehaps the necromancer levelup package was choosen, then again that could be ignored and a customized character would have all the same skills, feats and spells. So I have created numerous checks trying to include what is considers a necromancer. By doing this I can broaden the definition beyond soley arcane casters.

So as a player what types of characters do you think should be considered a specalist in necromancy?

[I_Raps]

You could have the character afflicted whenever they finish resting and the only "cure" would be from casting one of the summon/create undead spells.
The only other spells I would consider actually "necromancer" spells rather than Necromancy Spells (if you get my drift) would be Finger of Death, Horrid Wilting, Circle of Death.  Maybe I'm forgetting a couple?

Modifié par I_Raps, 02 mars 2012 - 04:55 .

[nicethugbert]

Perhaps you could relax the restrictions for the purpose of the item instead of getting overly detailed? For instance, any memorized necromancy spells means that the character is a necromancer for as long as they have the spell memorized. Worshiping a necromancy deity means the character is a necromnacer until they choose another deity. Etc.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I have a ui callback method in the csl library for getting the school of the caster. But you'd need to get spell focus feats too, probably better to require spell focus necromancy, levels of palemaster or worship of deities like myrkul as requirements anyway.

[Shaughn78]

I want to avoid spells as a way to define if a character is a necromancer. It is too dynamic and could essentially make most casters necromancers.

I am leaning towards a spell focus feat. This without an wizard/sorcerer check will make all casting classes able to use the item. Should that be trimmed down to avoid the druid necromancer or bard necromancer?

When playing as a bard, cleric, druid or warlock when would they be considered to be role playing a necromancer or specialist in the undead, or should it just be reserved for wizards and sorcerers?

I do like the deity check. A cleric of Velsharoon would likely focus on death magic while a wizard who worshiped lathander would most of time not be a necromancer.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I'd go with multiple reasons, let the player figure out the technical reasons based on the fluff, that way they guess one way or the other and tend to be right, not knowing there are multiple ways to be a necromancer.

Palemaster class levels, spell focus feats, or even undead class/race levels ( vampire in MOW for example ), plus the various deities whose portfolio is death, probably also allow death domain.

If you can do this by script then i'd suggest including some spells, there is a low level cleric spell that makes you get undead properties, plus the high level wizard spell shadow shield. These would only last as long as the spell effects protect the caster. ( thus fooling them initially - perhaps make it even block the caster from casting these spells after it is on )

[nicethugbert]

There are obvious signs of a necromancer. But, what of a pc that consistently uses necromancy spells? Isn't he a necromancer too?

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

I'm not sure what you had in mind plot-wise, but you could add in a side quest early on that has a necromancer and a non-necromancer solution to it. This could be as simple as a conversation choice, or you could require the player to use certain abilities or spells that only a necromancer-like character would have.

Once the player completes the quest, their choice gets stored as a variable somewhere, or your item checks for the journal state to determine whether or not the PC is a necromancer.

That gives the player a bit of choice in role-playing their character, and makes the issue simpler than a mess of spells and classes.

[Arkalezth]

I was about to suggest the same as Lugaid. Not necessarily an important quest, but one that defines the character in that way.

The problem is that it'd still need some sort of check, maybe the necro way being only available to spellcasters or something, just to prevent barbarians to be labeled as necromancers.

[PJ156]

For me this is tough to define within the PC, I like to think necromancy as a form of divination. Communing with a spirit to gather information or gain some boon. In the game we play the mechanics mean that necromancers throw the risen at thier foes but that is a blunt and uninspired definition. It tends to define necromacy as an evil act but I don't see necromancers as evil nessesarily,  I see them as far more complex. A raise dead spell could be seen as necromancy. Necromancer specialists are not allowed to divine, I like to think that is beacuse they do not need to .. they speak with the dead.

Perhaps you could consider the solution being in the item of power rather than finding some aspect of the PC to define them. Make it clear that the item is evil and allow the player to commune with the item and meld with it. In doing so they gain power but have commited an evil act? Once they are one with the object they can use it an not suffer, though there may be some side effects. They may otherwise choose to force their will upon the spirit. If they do that then they can use the item but at a personal cost which represents the energy required to overcome the spirit within the item.

Perhaps each time they force themselves opon the spirit they have to make a will save or the meld occurs against thier will.

In this way round you give the player the choice to be an evil necromancer or even to flirt with this evil power but not commit. Perhaps they might have a subplot to destroiy the spirit in the rod forever?

PJ

EDIT - If you made some test of wisdom, intelligence or charisma (say 16+) on the communing conversation you would naturally filter classes that did not max these out. It won't be foolproof but you would tend to select spellcasters in this way. However, if fighter has the will to take on the spirit then why now.

Modifié par PJ156, 02 mars 2012 - 10:15 .

[kamal_]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Palemaster class levels, spell focus feats, or even undead class/race levels ( vampire in MOW for example ), plus the various deities whose portfolio is death, probably also allow death domain.

I'd pretty much go with the first three, but I see necros as arcane based.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Arkalezth wrote...

I was about to suggest the same as Lugaid. Not necessarily an important quest, but one that defines the character in that way.

The problem is that it'd still need some sort of check, maybe the necro way being only available to spellcasters or something, just to prevent barbarians to be labeled as necromancers.

put a history feat into play - usage of certain spells ( via spell hook ) would add this given feat, as would certain actions ( asking to get tutoring for "voodoo bob" in spell casting ), or set it up so it adds a journal entry instead of a feat.

I kind of see necromancers being slightly divine - negative energy is more akin to healing magic than arcane magic. I see it being more "witchcraft", "voodoo", even though a specialist wizard who just focuses on necromancy really is a classic use of the term. Really anyone animating armies of undead buddies, focusing on negative energy and death magics. But at it's core it deals with what happens after you die, and corruption of the body or soul which makes it less an arcane science than an controlling power coming from an extraplanar source.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 02 mars 2012 - 10:50 .

[nicethugbert]

D&D Necromancer

The Bells of the Necromancer

Revised_Necromancer_Handbook

he Necromancer Handbook

This
is a discussion of how to play a necromancer. Not how to make a weird
20th level build that does something cute, but actually how to play
a character interested in the dark arts in real games. There are many
ways to build a decent necromancer, and unfortunately many more ways to
make a necromantically inclined character that is tragically incapable
of contributing to the machinations of their party. Hopefully, this
handbook will help you avoid the pitfalls even as it introduces you to
the interactions of the bewilderingly large school of necromantic
effects in such a way as to allow them to be used for good. Or at least
awesome.

We are aware that in many cases the rules as written for
necromancers are unclear, inadequate, or simply unsatisfactory. This is
outside of the scope of this guide, and these problems are tackled in
its sister publication the Tome of Necromancy.

......

Tome_of_Necromancy

Tome of Necromancy

Unlike the Revised Necromancer Handbook, which is a compilation of the Necromancy rules as they stand, what you are reading now is the rules for Necromancy as they should be. We feel there is a need for this because despite (or let's not kid ourselves, because
of) the considerable amount of space spent given over to Necromancy in
officially sanctioned products, the classical Necromancer does not
function under the rules as written. Vampires can't run or be staked,
there aren't any prestige classes that make you any more of a
necromancer than you are with the base classes, and honestly noone even knows how the basic necromancy spells work. Not because they are stupid, but because the rules for such things are contradictory in several key places.
...................

Modifié par nicethugbert, 02 mars 2012 - 11:02 .

[The Fred]

A Necromancer is anyone who wants to be able to cast (almost) all the decent spells in the game yet still get a bonus slot.

[Shaughn78]

This helps a bit.

The item that this is all for is a skin cloak, based on the creature/item in the Secret College of Necromancy. I have modified it a bit to fit into NWN2 and have made it an intelligent item. It is created from the skin of a dead necromancer.

When equipped it will act as a cursed item. If the player or companion isn't a necromancer it will begin constricting and suffocating the them until they die or it is removed. For a "defined necromancer" it will act as a normal cloak with some bonuses and special abilities.

At this point I am trying to find a way to define what the majority of players would consider a necromancer.

The simplest that I started with is this:
-Palemaster or
-wizard/sorcerer with either the necromancer levelup package or the spell focus necromancer feat.

Adding the undead and necromancy deities to the above so it is either: package, feat or deity works.

The point I am at now is what about the other casting classes.
-Cleric -Druid
-Bard -Spirit Shaman
-Warlock

[Shaughn78]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...


put a history feat into play - usage of certain spells ( via spell hook ) would add this given feat, as would certain actions ( asking to get tutoring for "voodoo bob" in spell casting ), or set it up so it adds a journal entry instead of a feat.

I kind of see necromancers being slightly divine - negative energy is more akin to healing magic than arcane magic. I see it being more "witchcraft", "voodoo", even though a specialist wizard who just focuses on necromancy really is a classic use of the term. Really anyone animating armies of undead buddies, focusing on negative energy and death magics. But at it's core it deals with what happens after you die, and corruption of the body or soul which makes it less an arcane science than an controlling power coming from an extraplanar source.

Okay, I think this may have been solved, thanks pain.

In addition to the above wizard/socerer checks I can use a spellhook do some spell casting stats. If a player has a preference for necro spells then a history feat can appear. If I get really ambitious this could work for all the spell schools.

I am definately still interested in hearing opinions about who is a necromancer, but the technical apsects of the spell hook will likely move to the scripting forum as it appears as if you can't get the spell school from a cast spell.

[Arkalezth]

I'd also add the necromancy school for wizards then, some may use it to powergame but I don't think most players would bother selecting a different package than the default one if they're going to customize their feats/skills.

Warlocks... maybe a check for the invocation The Dead Walk? Druids don't sound too necromantic to me, undeath being unnatural and all that. For clerics, you can checks domains and/or deities. Not sure about bards and SS.

Edit: Just saw your latest post (we wrote at the same time), so I don't know if this is of any use anymore if you're using a history feat, but well, I'll leave it as it is.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 03 mars 2012 - 02:02 .

[Shaughn78]

Here it is, time for more questions in this big mess I have created. I am defining a necromancer by the number of necro spells cast. Now it is time to set minimums.

To start I am tracking spells. Both the total number of spells cast that have an assigned school and the number of spells from each school. Once a player has cast a set number of spells they will be eligible for a specialty feat for 1 of the 8 magic schools. To earn that specialty school feat they will need to have over 50% of their spells cast be from that spell school. They can lose the feat if a new school is over 50% but will not lose the feat if the specialty feat spells fall below 50%.

How many total spells should a player have to cast before they are eligible to receive the specialty feat? If it is too low the feat may change a little too often at first. Right now I have it set at 250 spells cast from any school. That may be a bit high. I just finished The Wizards Apprentice and was throwing spells around everywhere.

The percentage: 50% may also be a bit high, and only a few casters will gain the specialty feat, especially if they use a variety of spells. Then again if it is too low most general wizards would have a specialty.

Right now this is set for all casters. Warlocks will be at a disadvantage since most of their invocations do not have assigned schools so they will likely never get a specialty or they will get transmutation since that school is one of the few ones assigned.

[painofdungeoneternal]

You can ( need to remember the csl library has a lot of things like that dealt with )

CSLGetSpellDataSchool

CSLGetSchoolByInitial

You basically use the following in the vanilla game
Get2DAString("spells", "School", iSpellId )

Pass the result to CSLGetSchoolByInitial which can be used as is ( or make your own as well ), and you have the school. I actually embed this data in various caches, inside the actual spell script prior to calling the spell hook, and in a data object, but you can just excerpt that portion.

To get a wizards specialization ( again part of csl library )
( i store into a var the wizards actual school )

int iCasterSchool = GetLocalInt( oCaster, "SC_iSpellSchool");

gui_getchardata.nss

// gui_getchardata.nss
/*
Credits
UI hack for extracting character data by Abraxas77
Based on the ideas & work of Raelius Archmannon, BrianMeyer, 2Drunk2Frag, and Mithdradates
Forum Thread: http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=630757&forum=114
*/
void main(string sField, string sValue)
{
	//Trim the value string.
	sValue = GetStringRight(sValue, GetStringLength(sValue) - 17);
	
	object oChar = OBJECT_SELF;
	
	//SendMessageToPC(oChar, "Running Script School");
	//SpeakString("Running Script School");
	// Categorize and store the character data for easier retrieval.
	// Assign feats (as Raelius Archmannon suggested) or store in your DB.
	//SendMessageToPC(OBJECT_SELF, sField + " = " + sValue);
	if ( sField == "SCHOOL" ) // don't even bother if the field returned is not school, possibly make this fire once for each field desired
	{
		
		int iTargetSchool = -1;
		// Lets do some validation, this should already be set up correctly, but checking for monkey business
		// If the caster is a specialist some other things should be set as well

		// is the caster a wizard
		if ( GetLevelByclass( class_TYPE_WIZARD, oChar ) > 0 )
		{
			if ( sValue == "Abjuration" && GetHasFeat( FEAT_SPELL_FOCUS_ABJURATION ) )
			{
				iTargetSchool = SPELL_SCHOOL_ABJURATION;
			}
			else if ( sValue == "Conjuration" && GetHasFeat( FEAT_SPELL_FOCUS_CONJURATION ) )
			{
				iTargetSchool = SPELL_SCHOOL_CONJURATION;
			}
			else if ( sValue == "Divination" && GetHasFeat( FEAT_SPELL_FOCUS_DIVINATION ) )
			{
				iTargetSchool = SPELL_SCHOOL_DIVINATION;
			}
			else if ( sValue == "Enchantment" && GetHasFeat( FEAT_SPELL_FOCUS_ENCHANTMENT ) )
			{
				iTargetSchool = SPELL_SCHOOL_ENCHANTMENT;
			}
			else if ( sValue == "Evocation" && GetHasFeat( FEAT_SPELL_FOCUS_EVOCATION ) )
			{
				iTargetSchool = SPELL_SCHOOL_EVOCATION;
			}
			else if ( sValue == "Illusion" && GetHasFeat( FEAT_SPELL_FOCUS_ILLUSION ) )
			{
				iTargetSchool = SPELL_SCHOOL_ILLUSION;
			}
			else if ( sValue == "Necromancy" && GetHasFeat( FEAT_SPELL_FOCUS_NECROMANCY ) )
			{
				iTargetSchool = SPELL_SCHOOL_NECROMANCY;
			}
			else if ( sValue == "Transmutation" && GetHasFeat( FEAT_SPELL_FOCUS_TRANSMUTATION ) )
			{
				iTargetSchool = SPELL_SCHOOL_TRANSMUTATION;
			}
			else
			{
				iTargetSchool = SPELL_SCHOOL_GENERAL;
				if ( GetLevelByclass( class_TYPE_RED_WIZARD, oChar ) > 0 )
				{
					// log message to dms now, we hve an issue, red wizards have to have a speciality.
					// set up benefits so it does not matter too much
				}
			}
			//iTargetSchool = 100;
			SetLocalInt(oChar, "SC_iSpellSchool", iTargetSchool );
		}
	}
	//SetLocalInt(oChar, "SC_iSpellSchool", 99 );
	CloseGUIScreen(OBJECT_SELF, "SCREEN_CHAR_DATA");
}

/*
<!-- List of character data fields (found in characterscreen.xml):
FULLNAME
SUBRACE
ALIGNMENT_TITLE
MAINHAND
MAINHAND_ATTACK_BONUS_STRING
MAINHAND_DAMAGE_STRING
OFFHAND
OFFHAND_ATTACK_BONUS_STRING
OFFHAND_DAMAGE_STRING
BASE_ATTACK
DEITY
PACKAGE
DOMAINS
SCHOOL
SPELL_RESIST
ARCANE_SPELL_FAILURE
ARMOR_CHECK_PENALTY
STRENGTH
STR_TOTAL_BONUS
DEXTERITY
DEX_TOTAL_BONUS
CONSTITUTION
CON_TOTAL_BONUS
INTELLIGENCE
INT_TOTAL_BONUS
WISDOM
WIS_TOTAL_BONUS
CHARISMA
CHA_TOTAL_BONUS
FORT_SAVINGTHROW
REFLEX_SAVINGTHROW
WILL_SAVINGTHROW
EXP_RATIO
HP_RATIO
ARMOR_class
-->
*/

_scgui_data.XML

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8">
<!--
	local:0 - Stores the value.
	(use additional variables if you want to extract multiple fields)
-->
<UIScene name="SCREEN_CHAR_DATA" 
	x="ALIGN_LEFT" y="ALIGN_TOP" width="200" height="40"
	idleexpiretime="1.0" scriptloadable="true"
	backoutkey="false" priority="SCENE_SCRIPT" modal="false"	
	OnAdd="UIObject_Misc_RequestCharacterUpdates(0,true,STATS)"
	OnRemove="UIObject_Misc_RequestCharacterUpdates(0,false)"
/>
<UIPane width="200" height="40" hidden="true" focusable="false" >
	<UIText width="PARENT_WIDTH" height="PARENT_HEIGHT" update="true" hidden="true"
		OnUpdate0="UIObject_OnUpdate_GetCharacterData(PARTY,SCHOOL)" 
		OnUpdate1="UIObject_Misc_SetLocalVarString(local:0)"
		OnUpdate2="UIObject_Misc_ExecuteServerScript(gui_getchardata,SCHOOL,local:0)"
	/>
</UIPane>

the xml is just opened when you want to put the correct value on the player as follows ( excerpts from SCCacheStats which is my main function for determining the players casting stats )

const string SCREEN_CHARACTERDATA = "SCREEN_CHAR_DATA";
const string XML_CHARACTERDATA = "_SCgui_data.xml";

// Now finished, lets get attributes for hard to get data from the client GUI
	if ( GetIsPC( oChar ) && GetLevelByclass( class_TYPE_WIZARD, oChar ) > 0 )
	{
		DisplayGuiScreen(oChar, SCREEN_CHARACTERDATA, FALSE, XML_CHARACTERDATA);
	}

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 03 mars 2012 - 04:05 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Shaughn78 wrote...
Warlocks will be at a disadvantage since most of their invocations do not have assigned schools.

I treat Warlocks invocations as they are from the SPELL_SCHOOL_ELDRITCH school, they don't belong in the normal schools, they just are in their own category.

[nicethugbert]

Obviously, mages and clerics naturally fit the classical idea of a necromancer.  The ready mechanism for such is the spell casting system through spell schools and related feats.  Having the appropriate deity helps.

But, Warlocks do not have that mechanism because they do not have spells.  If neccessary, you could shoe horn them in with spell school eldritch.  But, what do you get from it?  Measly Dead Walk?  Then, a BG may be a necromancer too.  Being able to shift into a night stalker in addition to dead walk still leaves the warlock far from what clerics and mages can do.

Yet, it is not hard to imagine a warlock necromancer.  The mechnism would have to be research and items.  A Warlock Necromancer would set up a Haven where he could have a forge of undeath.  With that forge he could make an undead army, thus making the warlock a classic necromancer, something that a BG or rogue could not do.

What about bards?  They have all the skills and feats a warlock would use to research and make undeath creation items too.  It might be unheard of but it might be made to work quite well and may prove to be more surprisingly fun than a classical necromancer.

A druid necromancer makes no sense to me.  Reading the description of druids, it's impossible.  Druids mearly use negative energy the way people use heat and cold.

Spirit Shaman do not creat undead, they mearly talk to some of them, the undead spirits.

FS is just another type of cleric.

Clerics and mages cast a lot of buff spells as a necessity, which is going to throw off your spell count.

I think items and quests would be a major part of the best possible solution to this problem.  Make npc(s) that will take an interest in PCs that could qualify to be necromancers.  PCs that want to play a necromancer will in turn take an interest in the npc(s).  You could also use items to lead the PC in the direction of necromancy.  Either way, the PC will be set on the path of necromancy if they qualify and choose to travel it.  On the path they will find recipies and items which will involve them in necromancy.  The stock necromancy system is weak anyway.

In the end, it will be helpful towards the enjoyment of the module if the mechnism is wrapped in story, or infuses story, so that the player gets the impression that he is playing a necromancer and not just some numbers.

EDIT:  How about an item that changes the energy type of spells to negative energy.  So, you could make an IGMS do negative energy damage, or even some added effect.  Using the item increases your necromancy score.  You could have a series of items involving a necromancy score for the PC.  Getting the next item in the series involves having a higher necromancy score.  Using necromancy items or spells increases your necromancy score.  The same could be done for any spell school.  Skills could be involved to limit the spell school score from dominating.  This way players will not grind to high level items using low level characters.  It'll also narrow the classes that can qualify.  This could be made to work for party members too.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 03 mars 2012 - 11:03 .

[Arkalezth]

nicethugbert wrote...

In the end, it will be helpful towards the enjoyment of the module if the mechnism is wrapped in story, or infuses story, so that the player gets the impression that he is playing a necromancer and not just some numbers.

This.

[Shaughn78]

From the comments here this is how I am defining a necromancer or a specialist in death magic

-A wizard or sorcerer that has chosen the Necromancy package
-A wizard, sorcerer, cleric, bard or warlock whose deity is Velsharoon or Kiransalee
-A wizard, sorcerer, cleric, bard or warlock who has spell and greater spell focus necromancy
-A Palemaster
-A character who has Akuji's Dark Magic feat (unique to Risen Hero, allows a companion to cast a few unique necromancy spells and a player with enough influence can earn this feat.)
-Necromancy Specialist Feat. A casting character cast 40% of their spells from the necro school.

The specialist feat will work for all 8 schools so later I can add things for those schools as well for little bonuses here and there. This includes all casting classess expect for warlock. I left the druid out of the other checks but if they manage to cast a majority of necro spells then they can earn the specialtist feat.

Modifié par Shaughn78, 03 mars 2012 - 04:25 .