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Deus ex machina


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#26
Hyrist

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Taleroth wrote...


They were using technology that's already massively outdated. The Turians reverse engineered Sovereign.


Just because the Turians reverse engineered their weapon technology does not mean they suddenly have beaten their shield technology.

Additionally, there's notthing to say that the Thanix cannons are equal par with the Reaper's weapons.

Beyond that, the Turian Council Member was the LEAST interested in the reapers among the council members up to the events of the 3rd game.

Let's not even go into the cost of the weapon: Remember, Normandy SR2 was top of the line, using Cerberus Connections and a crapload of minerals mined by you - to outfit one ship.

So what you have is a goverment reluctant to increase it's armament for what they conistered to be an isolated threat, with limited time to develop, test, deploy and retrofit this weapon to their ships. And this is just the Turians. It's more than well possible that Reapers's numbers outmatch any single armada in the Galaxy, and the dinky, easily destroyedTurian frigats are not going to be a match for a full armada of Reapers, even if they have the support of the Galaxy behind them.

Simple translation for you:

Reapers > All, period.

No argument, no justifications. That's the way it was written. What they don't have in Weapons they have in Numbers. What they don't have in numbers they've got in Brainwashing. What they don't have in Brainwashing they have in Zombification of every damn thing they find useful.


Here's a simple Vendiagram for you:

Posted Image

That part in the middle? Yeah, that's the Reapers.

Modifié par Hyrist, 02 mars 2012 - 08:55 .


#27
Taleroth

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Hyrist wrote...

Taleroth wrote...


They were using technology that's already massively outdated. The Turians reverse engineered Sovereign.


Just because the Turians reverse engineered their weapon technology does not mean they suddenly have beaten their shield technology.

It doesn't necessarilly no. But it's an option for the narrative.

Additionally, there's notthing to say that the Thanix cannons are equal par with the Reaper's weapons.

Only the writer's choices. Choosing McGuffin over technological advancement isn't entirely satisfying.

Beyond that, the Turian Council Member was the LEAST interested in the reapers among the council members up to the events of the 3rd game.

Good for him. Irrelevant. Thanix cannons have other uses, like general military might. Which is the Turians' entire thing.

Let's not even go into the cost of the weapon: Remember, Normandy SR2 was top of the line, using Cerberus Connections and a crapload of minerals mined by you - to outfit one ship.

Cerberus was still fringe. The governments should have far better resources.

So what you have is a goverment reluctant to increase it's armament

Turians would not be reluctant to increase their armament.

It's more than well possible that Reapers's numbers outmatch any single armada in the Galaxy,

Lots of things are possible. Yes, it's possible for the writers to write themselves into a corner needing a McGuffin. But it's also possible using established elements to not do that.

#28
Arrtis

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Taleroth wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

Game says you could not blow open the reaper to let shep out.
This means you could not blow the reaper open.

They weren't talking about the main guns. Referring to stuff like whatever cutting tool they used on the Geth station. The main guns are not a precision tool. They don't open, they destroy.

If they had at least tried that, you'd have an argument. They wouldn't know if the Thanix could do it without trying. But trying would be a really bad idea with no upside.

They were actually talking about taking its shields down.
EDI says that sovergeins shields were impervious to dreadnought fire.
Normandy lacked the weapons to bring the shields down.
The reason in ME1 the reaper was beaten was because you took out the corpse it was controlling making it vulnerable while all the ships were attacking it.

Modifié par Arrtis, 02 mars 2012 - 08:59 .


#29
Taleroth

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Arrtis wrote...

They were actually talking about taking its shields down.
EDI says that sovergeins shields were impervious to dreadnought fire.
Normandy lacked the weapons to bring the shields down.
The reason in ME1 the reaper was beaten was because you took out the corpse it was controlling making it vulnerable while all the ships were attacking it.

It doesn't matter if they're talking about taking the shields down. Firing the main guns at while Shepard is aboard is not a smart activity. Whether you think it can take the shields down or not.

There is no way that can end well.

Modifié par Taleroth, 02 mars 2012 - 09:04 .


#30
Arrtis

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Taleroth wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

They were actually talking about taking its shields down.
EDI says that sovergeins shields were impervious to dreadnought fire.
Normandy lacked the weapons to bring the shields down.
The reason in ME1 the reaper was beaten was because you took out the corpse it was controlling making it vulnerable while all the ships were attacking it.

It doesn't matter if they're talking about taking the shields down. Firing the main guns at while Shepard is aboard is not a smart activity. Whether you think it can take the shields down or not.

There is no way that can end well.

Codex for thanix in general says it allows for cruiser class weaponry on a frigate or fighter.
Not that it is some all powerful weapon.
If the shields could stop dreadnoughts(AKA the biggest ships with the biggest and most powerful guns)It can stop a weapon that you would put on a cruiser.
You should read the codex more.

#31
Taleroth

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Arrtis wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

They were actually talking about taking its shields down.
EDI says that sovergeins shields were impervious to dreadnought fire.
Normandy lacked the weapons to bring the shields down.
The reason in ME1 the reaper was beaten was because you took out the corpse it was controlling making it vulnerable while all the ships were attacking it.

It doesn't matter if they're talking about taking the shields down. Firing the main guns at while Shepard is aboard is not a smart activity. Whether you think it can take the shields down or not.

There is no way that can end well.

Codex for thanix in general says it allows for cruiser class weaponry on a frigate or fighter.
Not that it is some all powerful weapon.
If the shields could stop dreadnoughts(AKA the biggest ships with the biggest and most powerful guns)It can stop a weapon that you would put on a cruiser.
You should read the codex more.


It's not so much the Thanix itself. But what the Thanix represents. The leap forward in technology. If Thanix gets cruiser guns on a frigate, what kind of technology did they get for putting on Dreadnoughts? It's bigger guns for everyone.

Unless you expect me to believe that the Turians secretly stole large parts of Sovereign and only managed to get Normandy size weaponry out of it.

Modifié par Taleroth, 02 mars 2012 - 09:13 .


#32
brfritos

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[quote]Taleroth wrote...

[quote]
[quote]Let's not even go into the cost of the weapon: Remember, Normandy SR2 was top of the line, using Cerberus Connections and a crapload of minerals mined by you - to outfit one ship.[/quote] Cerberus was still fringe. The governments should have far better resources.[/quote]

Resources are not a magical and infinite thing, you need time and planning for using them. Also, remember that a lot of the races ships were destroye when Sovereign attacked the Citadel.
Most patrols and ships guarding the station are human, TIM says that to you whatever you chose to destroy or save the Council.

Also, if we take the development time of planes, aircrafts, guns and artillery, I don't believe a fleet of dreadnoughts destroyed in the Battle of the Citadel can be replenished entirely in so short time (is 3 years, 2183 -2186, isn't)

#33
Arrtis

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Taleroth wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

They were actually talking about taking its shields down.
EDI says that sovergeins shields were impervious to dreadnought fire.
Normandy lacked the weapons to bring the shields down.
The reason in ME1 the reaper was beaten was because you took out the corpse it was controlling making it vulnerable while all the ships were attacking it.

It doesn't matter if they're talking about taking the shields down. Firing the main guns at while Shepard is aboard is not a smart activity. Whether you think it can take the shields down or not.

There is no way that can end well.

Codex for thanix in general says it allows for cruiser class weaponry on a frigate or fighter.
Not that it is some all powerful weapon.
If the shields could stop dreadnoughts(AKA the biggest ships with the biggest and most powerful guns)It can stop a weapon that you would put on a cruiser.
You should read the codex more.


It's not so much the Thanix itself. But what the Thanix represents. The leap forward in technology. If Thanix gets cruiser guns on a frigate, what kind of technology did they get for putting on Dreadnoughts? It's bigger guns for everyone.

May not be enough to stop reapers shields.
They can land on planets because of their massive energy source.
Bigger guns are useless if you do not meet the energy requirements.
The whole point is dreadnoughts being as big as they are, still are no match for a fully developed reaper.
You can slow them down.
You can kill some of them.
You cannot stop them.
That is in general what the entire first 2 games were going on about.

#34
Taleroth

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brfritos wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Cerberus was still fringe. The governments should have far better resources.


Resources are not a magical and infinite thing, you need time and planning for using them. Also, remember that a lot of the races ships were destroye when Sovereign attacked the Citadel.
Most patrols and ships guarding the station are human, TIM says that to you whatever you chose to destroy or save the Council.

Also, if we take the development time of planes, aircrafts, guns and artillery, I don't believe a fleet of dreadnoughts destroyed in the Battle of the Citadel can be replenished entirely in so short time (is 3 years, 2183 -2186, isn't)

You're right, it's not magical and infinite. But anything Cerberus can do, the Alliance, the Turians, the Asari should be able to do in spades. Rebuilding the most advanced warship in the entire galaxy in two years? Reoutfitting it with top of the line guns in relatively no time at all.

Either Cerberus is magic or everyone should have that capability.

Modifié par Taleroth, 02 mars 2012 - 09:16 .


#35
Arrtis

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Taleroth wrote...

brfritos wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Cerberus was still fringe. The governments should have far better resources.


Resources are not a magical and infinite thing, you need time and planning for using them. Also, remember that a lot of the races ships were destroye when Sovereign attacked the Citadel.
Most patrols and ships guarding the station are human, TIM says that to you whatever you chose to destroy or save the Council.

Also, if we take the development time of planes, aircrafts, guns and artillery, I don't believe a fleet of dreadnoughts destroyed in the Battle of the Citadel can be replenished entirely in so short time (is 3 years, 2183 -2186, isn't)

You're right, it's not magical and infinite. But anything Cerberus can do, the Alliance, the Turians, the Asari should be able to do in spades. Rebuilding the most advanced warship in the entire galaxy in two years? Reoutfitting it with top of the line guns in relatively no time at all.

Either Cerberus is magic or everyone should have that capability.

They will stick with their tried and true weapons before outfitting everyout with experimental tech.
Either way they have no time for building top of the line reaper tech.

#36
Hyrist

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Taleroth wrote...
It doesn't necessarilly no. But it's an option for the narrative.


On that heavily belittles the Reaper's role in this story, and pretty much plays Dragon Age all over again. The plot lists the Reapers as a true Galactic threat over all other threats. The way you would play them out would put up the question of why the Reapers were never beaten in previous cycles. "Oh but they got the drop on them." is not a valid excuse.

Just because Soverign died does not mean suddenly every fleet can be upgraded in 3 years to defeat an entire armada that is millions of years more advanced.

Only the writer's choices. Choosing McGuffin over technological advancement isn't entirely satisfying.

Only MacGuffin if the Humans invented it out of scrap and an Ezo core. This was a weapons the Protheans divised, likely off the research they procured form the cycle before them and so on and so forth.

In the end, this story was the tale of the Reapers, how they managed to trick generations of civilization and trap them into a technological development to defeat them. You think Soverign was the first Reaper to die? Or that their weapons was the first of their technology we adapted. Again, you're overestimating your narative path's plausability.


Good for him. Irrelevant. Thanix cannons have other uses, like general military might. Which is the Turians' entire thing.


And with no sense of urgancy, even the development of Military Might would take time. Just because we CAN build a nuke, dosent mean every ship should be armed with one within half a decade. You need only look to the lagging of parts our own military's development to see why the Thanix is not a liable answer here.

Cerberus was still fringe. The governments should have far better resources.


Cerberus was goverment before it went Rogue, and the Illusive Man did not have to deal with Beurocracy to develop what he needed.

Twice in ME2 that Cerberus was referred to as something similar in scope to the Salarian STG. And over the entire course of that game we were shown examples that even Specter's and Citidel's resources were fairly limited.

Turians would not be reluctant to increase their armament.


Your assumption, not the writers. You're presuming for the race, where I'm going right from the examples of the games. Turian military, yes, quick to change, hell no.

Lots of things are possible. Yes, it's possible for the writers to write themselves into a corner needing a McGuffin. But it's also possible using established elements to not do that.


Again, not a McGuffin, learn your tropes please.

Also, they did use established elements. Elements they had set up from game 1 - The Relays and the fact that the Protheans were on the cusp of unlocking the technology when their war began. They did create a solution out of established elements - just not the elements YOU wanted them to.

And they wrote themselves into a corner with the first game.

This concept of disagreeing with something = licence to belittle is really getting annoying, and the conversation is not worth continuing - as you're calling for a complete rewrite of the game. If you don't like it, don't get it. But don't call a game you haven't played sucky because you don't like the abstract concepts.

If that was the case I could call every Military game absolutely horrible.

#37
Arrtis

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To put it simply everything comes down to using what the protheans left behind like in the first game.