66 réponses à ce sujet

[Kronner]

Currently, (Half) Nova is just not a high risk power it is supposed to be. Instead, it is the exact opposite. People are taking advantage of invulnerability (except for staggers and instakills) during the Nova animation.

Half Nova gets you two such windows of invulnerability between Charges, therefore serving as a tool for surviving the time between two Charges.
 
I propose Half Nova be changed to a Super Nova. Super Nova would prolong the cooldown for Charge, but on the other hand, it would do massive damage. This would make Super Nova a true high risk/high reward power AND it would remove the Charge/Double Nova spam that is so effective. Anyone else thinks the same?

In addition, the Nova cancel should be fixed, but that is a separate issue.

Edited to clarify that my issue is with the double (or half) Nova. The regular Nova is fine IMHO.

Modifié par Kronner, 02 mars 2012 - 10:14 .

[Delta 57 Dash]

Nova is the DEFINITION of high risk power. It drains your shields and goes all of 4 feet. Get caught on cooldown on the higher difficulties, and you're toast.

The main issue is Nova-cancelling, which allows the vanguard to saunter across the battlefield while enjoying both shields and invulnerability frames.

[Kronner]

Delta 57 Dash wrote...

Nova is the DEFINITION of high risk power. It drains your shields and goes all of 4 feet. Get caught on cooldown on the higher difficulties, and you're toast.

The main issue is Nova-cancelling, which allows the vanguard to saunter across the battlefield while enjoying both shields and invulnerability frames.

No. Nova (not Nova cancel) gives you a brief window of invulnerability. If you Nova twice in a row, your Charge is ready. Nova serves both as an AoE attack AND a tool that makes you survive the time between charges. Not high risk. It is actually more risky not to use Nova.

[Fortack]

I totally agree.

I love the ME2 Vanguard because of its high risk - high reward gameplay. The ME3 (human) version is nothing like the ME2 one. You only need a target to Charge when youre done spamming Nova and you cannot die.

This also defeats the purpose of weapons. The Vanguard ought to be a combat-biotic specialist, but now it is basically a pure caster with very little (if any) room to use weapons. The designated weapon for Vanguards - the Claymore - has also become useless (for Vanguards).

There is a lot I like about ME3, but the Vanguard is not among em

[AcidThe Wraith]

Kronner wrote...

Delta 57 Dash wrote...

Nova is the DEFINITION of high risk power. It drains your shields and goes all of 4 feet. Get caught on cooldown on the higher difficulties, and you're toast.

The main issue is Nova-cancelling, which allows the vanguard to saunter across the battlefield while enjoying both shields and invulnerability frames.

No. Nova (not Nova cancel) gives you a brief window of invulnerability. If you Nova twice in a row, your Charge is ready. Nova serves both as an AoE attack AND a tool that makes you survive the time between charges. Not high risk. It is actually more risky not to use Nova.

<-- Vangaurd level 20

You often take damage between Novas, or right when you come out of charge. Especially since Nova only goes so far in terms of AOE, so if there is a couple guys off to the side, they shoot at you and nothing happens to them. You die. Or if a Gaurdian or something knocks you back. It is still VERY much a high risk power.

You may be "Invincible" playing on Bronze with a Vangaurd if its leveled a bit, but not on the higher difficulties. And for that matter there are quite a few invincible classes on Bronze. Krogan for example, it is literally impossible to die with that thing because it has so much health and shields. 

Nothing needs to be nerfed. Edit: Except maybe the Nova cancle thing. 

Modifié par AcidThe Wraith, 02 mars 2012 - 08:54 .

[FFLB]

I don't Nova very often, but sometimes when I do, I am knocked out of Nova and staggered, leaving me vulnerable to the hail of bullets afterwards. I've had it happen against Atluses and probably in some crowds that have a couple of guardians in there. Using Nova doesn't exactly come without risk.

[Cuthlan]

If Nova prolonged the timer for Charge it would be nearly useless. The reward would not be worth the risk.

Stop trying to balance things that do not need to be balanced, especially not based on limited demo play.

[FFLB]

Cuthlan wrote...

If Nova prolonged the timer for Charge it would be nearly useless. The reward would not be worth the risk.

Stop trying to balance things that do not need to be balanced, especially not based on limited demo play.

Besides that, it would run counter to one of the branches of Nova that reduces cooldown by 25%. It's almost like they want you to Charge faster after a Nova...

[Kronner]

AcidThe Wraith wrote...

<-- Vangaurd level 20

You often take damage between Novas, or right when you come out of charge. Especially since Nova only goes so far in terms of AOE, so if there is a couple guys off to the side, they shoot at you and nothing happens to them. You die. Or if a Gaurdian or something knocks you back. It is still VERY much a high risk power.

You may be "Invincible" playing on Bronze with a Vangaurd if its leveled a bit, but not on the higher difficulties. And for that matter there are quite a few invincible classes on Bronze. Krogan for example, it is literally impossible to die with that thing because it has so much health and shields. 

Nothing needs to be nerfed. Edit: Except maybe the Nova cancle thing. 

Cuthlan wrote...

If Nova prolonged the timer for Charge it would be nearly useless. The reward would not be worth the risk.

Stop trying to balance things that do not need to be balanced, especially not based on limited demo play.

 

I am not talking about a nerf, but a change. Nova would have devastating power (i.e. much greater damage than it has now), but it would also expose you to a great risk. Unlike now.

On Gold, Nova is actually used to survive the time between Charges.

[Shin0biwan]

Cuthlan wrote...

If Nova prolonged the timer for Charge it would be nearly useless. The reward would not be worth the risk.

Stop trying to balance things that do not need to be balanced, especially not based on limited demo play.

Seconded. The Vanguard is working fine. The risk is in the fact that if you mess up with the Vanguard, you're dead. It's working fine, don't break it with fixes.

Modifié par Shin0biwan, 02 mars 2012 - 09:02 .

[Delta 57 Dash]

Kronner wrote...

Delta 57 Dash wrote...

Nova is the DEFINITION of high risk power. It drains your shields and goes all of 4 feet. Get caught on cooldown on the higher difficulties, and you're toast.

The main issue is Nova-cancelling, which allows the vanguard to saunter across the battlefield while enjoying both shields and invulnerability frames.

No. Nova (not Nova cancel) gives you a brief window of invulnerability. If you Nova twice in a row, your Charge is ready. Nova serves both as an AoE attack AND a tool that makes you survive the time between charges. Not high risk. It is actually more risky not to use Nova.

Correct, as long as you aren't up against anything higher than silver, you can charge, nova, nova, charge all day long.  Until that nemesis over in the corner snipes you immediately after you charge, and suddenly you can't nova at all, because nova requires that you have some shields left in order to activate it.  Or if you get hit by a guardian/phantom melee while charging, you get knocked back and probably stripped of your shields, guarenteeing death.

[Fortack]

AcidThe Wraith wrote...

You may be "Invincible" playing on Bronze with a Vangaurd if its leveled a bit, but not on the higher difficulties. And for that matter there are quite a few invincible classes on Bronze. Krogan for example, it is literally impossible to die with that thing because it has so much health and shields.

You are invincible during the animations. This means you cannot be harmed 90-95% of the time - because you are either in the Charge animation or using Nova. When you take damage it has nothing to do with skill, tactics or whatever - it is bad luck. Any game that relies on luck is a bad game in my book.

You can also solo silver and gold with a Vanguard as long as you don't get the hacking objectives - then you are screwed, but that is something all classes - except the invisible Infiltrator - have to deal with.

[Cuthlan]

FFLB wrote...

Cuthlan wrote...

If Nova prolonged the timer for Charge it would be nearly useless. The reward would not be worth the risk.

Stop trying to balance things that do not need to be balanced, especially not based on limited demo play.

Besides that, it would run counter to one of the branches of Nova that reduces cooldown by 25%. It's almost like they want you to Charge faster after a Nova...

They do, otherwise that wouldn't be available.

But that could change if people cry about it enough. They feel like they have to crusade to get it nerfed because they keep getting slaughtered by Vanguards in the PVP matches... 

 

[Shin0biwan]

Fortack wrote...

AcidThe Wraith wrote...

You may be "Invincible" playing on Bronze with a Vangaurd if its leveled a bit, but not on the higher difficulties. And for that matter there are quite a few invincible classes on Bronze. Krogan for example, it is literally impossible to die with that thing because it has so much health and shields.

You are invincible during the animations. This means you cannot be harmed 90-95% of the time - because you are either in the Charge animation or using Nova. When you take damage it has nothing to do with skill, tactics or whatever - it is bad luck. Any game that relies on luck is a bad game in my book.

You can also solo silver and gold with a Vanguard as long as you don't get the hacking objectives - then you are screwed, but that is something all classes - except the invisible Infiltrator - have to deal with.

The problem is that if you get hit in the window of vulnerability right after charge and before you can nova, you can't nova. Then you're dead. That creates plenty of risk as is, even ignoring the handful of attacks that can kill/stagger you through your invincibility frames.

[AcidThe Wraith]

Kronner wrote...

AcidThe Wraith wrote...

<-- Vangaurd level 20

You often take damage between Novas, or right when you come out of charge. Especially since Nova only goes so far in terms of AOE, so if there is a couple guys off to the side, they shoot at you and nothing happens to them. You die. Or if a Gaurdian or something knocks you back. It is still VERY much a high risk power.

You may be "Invincible" playing on Bronze with a Vangaurd if its leveled a bit, but not on the higher difficulties. And for that matter there are quite a few invincible classes on Bronze. Krogan for example, it is literally impossible to die with that thing because it has so much health and shields. 

Nothing needs to be nerfed. Edit: Except maybe the Nova cancle thing. 

Cuthlan wrote...

If Nova prolonged the timer for Charge it would be nearly useless. The reward would not be worth the risk.

Stop trying to balance things that do not need to be balanced, especially not based on limited demo play.

 

I am not talking about a nerf, but a change. Nova would have devastating power (i.e. much greater damage than it has now), but it would also expose you to a great risk. Unlike now.

On Gold, Nova is actually used to survive the time between Charges.

Even using the Charge and Nova as soon as possible (Charge-Nova-Nova-Charge, or Charge-Nova-Charge) on Sivler and Gold I still take damage inbetween quite often, usually about half my health, and I'm sure if I were less careful i would die a lot. 

And what about when you can't charge because the guy you were aiming at went behind cover? In the time it takes to turn and look you're for another you're dead. What about when you charge and right as you come out, you lose all your shields? Etc.!

To be honest it seems like you havn't played the class much, especially not in Silver or Gold. 

[Cuthlan]

Kronner wrote...

AcidThe Wraith wrote...

<-- Vangaurd level 20

You often take damage between Novas, or right when you come out of charge. Especially since Nova only goes so far in terms of AOE, so if there is a couple guys off to the side, they shoot at you and nothing happens to them. You die. Or if a Gaurdian or something knocks you back. It is still VERY much a high risk power.

You may be "Invincible" playing on Bronze with a Vangaurd if its leveled a bit, but not on the higher difficulties. And for that matter there are quite a few invincible classes on Bronze. Krogan for example, it is literally impossible to die with that thing because it has so much health and shields. 

Nothing needs to be nerfed. Edit: Except maybe the Nova cancle thing. 

Cuthlan wrote...

If Nova prolonged the timer for Charge it would be nearly useless. The reward would not be worth the risk.

Stop trying to balance things that do not need to be balanced, especially not based on limited demo play.

 

I am not talking about a nerf, but a change. Nova would have devastating power (i.e. much greater damage than it has now), but it would also expose you to a great risk. Unlike now.

On Gold, Nova is actually used to survive the time between Charges.

You ARE talking about a nerf. You think it is too powerful as it stands, otherwise there would be no reason to change it.

Nova might have devastating damage in your change, but it would be suicide to use if it if prolonged the Charge cooldown.

And there is clearly still great risk right now, otherwise Vanguards wouldn't die so often and there wouldn't be so much talk of dumb Vanguards that need revived every two minutes. Good players can do it without dying often, but they can also dominate with other classes without dying often as well.

[Eludajae]

What I am seeing and "hearing" here is most probably someone that primarily observes Nova used on a Bronze level. I revive Vanguards more often than not on Silver and Gold levels more than any other class. Before making dogmatic and authoritarian pronouncements on a class, please do everyone the favor of playing on a Silver or Gold level with said class, yourself.

[AcidThe Wraith]

Fortack wrote...

AcidThe Wraith wrote...

You may be "Invincible" playing on Bronze with a Vangaurd if its leveled a bit, but not on the higher difficulties. And for that matter there are quite a few invincible classes on Bronze. Krogan for example, it is literally impossible to die with that thing because it has so much health and shields.

You are invincible during the animations. This means you cannot be harmed 90-95% of the time - because you are either in the Charge animation or using Nova. When you take damage it has nothing to do with skill, tactics or whatever - it is bad luck. Any game that relies on luck is a bad game in my book.

You can also solo silver and gold with a Vanguard as long as you don't get the hacking objectives - then you are screwed, but that is something all classes - except the invisible Infiltrator - have to deal with.

What the other guy said in the post above this.

Also, I'd just love to see your solo Gold run with the Vangaurd. 

[Fortack]

Shin0biwan wrote...

The problem is that if you get hit in the window of vulnerability right after charge and before you can nova, you can't nova. Then you're dead. That creates plenty of risk as is, even ignoring the handful of attacks that can kill/stagger you through your invincibility frames.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with skill. It is bad luck.

The Vanguard should be about taking risk and be rewarded for playing skillfully. That is how it is in ME2 and it is why I love the Vanguard. That is gone now.
The OP is not asking to remove Nova or anything, but to change it into something that is very risky to use, and when you use it properly the reward is worth the risk. That, unfortunately is not the case right now. Nova is a tool to increase survivability - not something suicidal when used in the wrong way as it should be IMHO.

[Kronner]

AcidThe Wraith wrote...

Even using the Charge and Nova as soon as possible (Charge-Nova-Nova-Charge, or Charge-Nova-Charge) on Sivler and Gold I still take damage inbetween quite often, usually about half my health, and I'm sure if I were less careful i would die a lot. 

And what about when you can't charge because the guy you were aiming at went behind cover? In the time it takes to turn and look you're for another you're dead. What about when you charge and right as you come out, you lose all your shields? Etc.!

To be honest it seems like you havn't played the class much, especially not in Silver or Gold. 

You obviously still have to think about where you Charge. Unwise Charge gets any Vanguard killed in a second.
I am NOT saying Nova/Charge is a super combo that gets you through anything. All I am saying is that I expected Nova to be super high risk power that yields a great reward. Instead, it is used as a tool to increase the chances of survival between Charges.

Cuthlan wrote...

You ARE talking about a nerf. You think it is too powerful as it stands, otherwise there would be no reason to change it.

Nova might have devastating damage in your change, but it would be suicide to use if it if prolonged the Charge cooldown.

And there is clearly still great risk right now, otherwise Vanguards wouldn't die so often and there wouldn't be so much talk of dumb Vanguards that need revived every two minutes. Good players can do it without dying often, but they can also dominate with other classes without dying often as well.

 

I am not saying it is too powerful. I simply think that if it was changed as mentioned in my original post, it would be a better high risk/high reward power. That's all.

Eludajae wrote...

What I am seeing and "hearing" here is most probably someone that primarily observes Nova used on a Bronze level. I revive Vanguards more often than not on Silver and Gold levels more than any other class. Before making dogmatic and authoritarian pronouncements on a class, please do everyone the favor of playing on a Silver or Gold level with said class, yourself.

 

I am talking about Gold/Silver. Just FYI.

Modifié par Kronner, 02 mars 2012 - 09:17 .

[AcidThe Wraith]

Fortack wrote...

Shin0biwan wrote...

The problem is that if you get hit in the window of vulnerability right after charge and before you can nova, you can't nova. Then you're dead. That creates plenty of risk as is, even ignoring the handful of attacks that can kill/stagger you through your invincibility frames.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with skill. It is bad luck.

The Vanguard should be about taking risk and be rewarded for playing skillfully. That is how it is in ME2 and it is why I love the Vanguard. That is gone now.
The OP is not asking to remove Nova or anything, but to change it into something that is very risky to use, and when you use it properly the reward is worth the risk. That, unfortunately is not the case right now. Nova is a tool to increase survivability - not something suicidal when used in the wrong way as it should be IMHO.

A skilled Vangaurd evaluates the risk assosiated with Charging. This include wether or not I will be hit and killed. i.e. if there is 2 turrets or 3 Gaurdians, only a bad Vangaurd would charge in there and die. But there is a RISK factor. You don't know if there is a trurret around that corner, that is the the luck/risk that leads to death or a high reward. 

The class works exactly how it is supposed to. 

[RamsenC]

Hey, I know you.

I think Nova is fine the way it is EXCEPT for the double Nova. Getting two moments of invulnerability which buy you time for another charge is too strong. Single Nova is still really powerful, but acceptable.

[AcidThe Wraith]

Kronner wrote...

AcidThe Wraith wrote...

Even using the Charge and Nova as soon as possible (Charge-Nova-Nova-Charge, or Charge-Nova-Charge) on Sivler and Gold I still take damage inbetween quite often, usually about half my health, and I'm sure if I were less careful i would die a lot. 

And what about when you can't charge because the guy you were aiming at went behind cover? In the time it takes to turn and look you're for another you're dead. What about when you charge and right as you come out, you lose all your shields? Etc.!

To be honest it seems like you havn't played the class much, especially not in Silver or Gold. 

You obviously still have to think about where you Charge. Unwise Charge gets any Vanguard killed in a second.
I am NOT saying Nova/Charge is a super combo that gets you through anything. All I am saying is that I expected Nova to be super high risk power that yields a great reward. Instead, it is used as a tool to increase the chances of survival between Charges.

Cuthlan wrote...


One failed Nova = Death

Can't charge? = Death

Charged the wrong enemy? = Death

One wrong move and you die. How is that not high risk/high reward? 

[Kronner]

RamsenC wrote...

Hey, I know you.

I think Nova is fine the way it is EXCEPT for the double Nova. Getting two moments of invulnerability which buy you time for another charge is too strong. Single Nova is still really powerful, but acceptable.

Exactly my point. If you replaced the half Nova with a super Nova that prolongs Charge CD, it would be awesome.

AcidThe Wraith wrote...

One failed Nova = Death
What do you mean by failed Nova?

Can't charge? = Death
Not Nova related.

Charged the wrong enemy? = Death
Not Nova related. 

One wrong move and you die. How is that not high risk/high reward? 

 

You keep missing my point. The two windows of invulnerability Nova can give you is too powerful and not high risk. Have you ever tried the Half Nova?

Modifié par Kronner, 02 mars 2012 - 09:24 .

[Fortack]

AcidThe Wraith wrote...

A skilled Vangaurd evaluates the risk assosiated with Charging. This include wether or not I will be hit and killed. i.e. if there is 2 turrets or 3 Gaurdians, only a bad Vangaurd would charge in there and die. But there is a RISK factor. You don't know if there is a trurret around that corner, that is the the luck/risk that leads to death or a high reward. 

The class works exactly how it is supposed to. 

You fail to get the point.

The point is about Nova being a high risk power to use. That is simply not the case. When you are not using Nova you are asking for trouble. It should be the other way around. Every example you have put forth thus far has nothing to do with the issue mentioned in the OP. Bad luck, buggy animation cancels, getting sniped exactly between animations, targeting issues and so are not related to Nova being a high risk power at all.