66 réponses à ce sujet

[AcidThe Wraith]

Kronner wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

Hey, I know you.

I think Nova is fine the way it is EXCEPT for the double Nova. Getting two moments of invulnerability which buy you time for another charge is too strong. Single Nova is still really powerful, but acceptable.

Exactly my point. If you replaced the half Nova with a super Nova that prolongs Charge CD, it would be awesome.

The prolonged CD time on Charge would kill the Vangaurd as an effective class. 

If you wanted to make it so you could only do one Nova I would see your point if it did massive damage, but I would still disagree. It is just fine how it is. 

[RamsenC]

The thing is I don't know if anyone would ever pick the stronger Nova that prolongs cooldowns when regular Nova does an awesome job as is.

I would change the double nova skill to take half shields as it currently does, for 50%-60% damage, but without the option of using it immediately after.

[Cuthlan]

Prolonging the Charge CD is the deal-breaker.

Remove half Nova? Fine.

But if you prolong the Charge CD then Nova is suicide in any situation other than "One enemy remaining!".

But seriously... making changes based off of a restricted demo is stupid. We don't know what we will be fighting yet. Banshees may make Nova complete suicide anyway, for example.

[Kronner]

The stronger Nova could be used as a finishing move or attacking Atlas/another large target from behind and inflicting a much greater damage than the current Nova does. The main point is to get rid of two windows of invulnerability due to animations between Charges (not the Nova cancel, that is a separate issue).

Modifié par Kronner, 02 mars 2012 - 09:30 .

[Shadow of Terror]

The only way this would work is if you made the shotguns far, FAR stronger (or make the close range multiplier higher, which would probably be the better option).

Otherwise, you'll charge, and you'll die.

[RamsenC]

The shotguns should be stronger. They all suck imo, although the scimitar is growing on me.

[EsterCloat]

Kronner wrote...

AcidThe Wraith wrote...

Even using the Charge and Nova as soon as possible (Charge-Nova-Nova-Charge, or Charge-Nova-Charge) on Sivler and Gold I still take damage inbetween quite often, usually about half my health, and I'm sure if I were less careful i would die a lot. 

And what about when you can't charge because the guy you were aiming at went behind cover? In the time it takes to turn and look you're for another you're dead. What about when you charge and right as you come out, you lose all your shields? Etc.!

To be honest it seems like you havn't played the class much, especially not in Silver or Gold. 

You obviously still have to think about where you Charge. Unwise Charge gets any Vanguard killed in a second.
I am NOT saying Nova/Charge is a super combo that gets you through anything. All I am saying is that I expected Nova to be super high risk power that yields a great reward. Instead, it is used as a tool to increase the chances of survival between Charges.

An expectation isn't always correct. I don't see how Nova is a bad thing. Increased survivability for a Vanguard is welcome in my eyes. Nova is a high risk maneuver when it starts out; you lose all your shields for a one time move which is usually activated when you're surrounded by enemies. This is risky and can be high reward if done right. This is what you want.

If you're talking about endgame sets where people have specced it to do half blasts and carry minimum weight with full Charge barrier then you're focusing on one spec. People pick that kind of spec because it grants survivability. If people like this, I don't see why it should be taken out. You can spec Nova to do maximum damage with high risk if you want; just don't pick half blasts and full barrier recharge. If you make it so Nova causes Charge's cooldown to go longer from the get go, then you hurt Nova's feasibility until the late game where you have enough points to spec yourself to the survivability mold.

Modifié par EsterCloat, 02 mars 2012 - 09:33 .

[Destructo-Bot]

Fortack wrote...
You fail to get the point.

The point
is about Nova being a high risk power to use. That is simply not the
case. When you are not using Nova you are asking for trouble. It should
be the other way around. Every example you have put forth thus far has
nothing to do with the issue mentioned in the OP. Bad luck, buggy
animation cancels, getting sniped exactly between animations, targeting
issues and so are not related to Nova being a high risk power at
all.

You fail to get the point.

The point is about Charge being a high risk power to use. That is simply no the case. When you are not using Charge you are asking for trouble. It should be the other way around. Every example you have put forth thus far has nothing to do with the issue mentioned in the OP. Bad luck, buggy animation cancels, getting sniped exactly between animations, targeting issues and so are not related to Charge being a high risk power at all.


Hmm... odd how that same argument works for charge to. Charge should not restore barriers, there is no risk if it does. High Risk, High Reward... if you get shields every 3 seconds where is the risk? class NERF PLZ!

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 02 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[RamsenC]

I don't think he's saying Nova should cause longer cooldowns in general, just that the double Nova be replaced by a stronger Nova that slows cooldowns as opposed to your other choice of 25% faster cooldowns after using Nova.

[Cyonan]

Prolonging the cooldown would just make the ability suicidal for Vanguards on silver/gold, though removing the half-blast talent would be a good way to remove the insane amounts of immunity you can achieve.

Of course, this is only against Cerberus, we might find in the full version a faction of enemy that being in melee with is a death sentence to Vanguards.

Regardless of what happens, they should fix nova cancelling, though.

[Kronner]

RamsenC wrote...

I don't think he's saying Nova should cause longer cooldowns in general, just that the double Nova be replaced by a stronger Nova that slows cooldowns as opposed to your other choice of 25% faster cooldowns after using Nova.

Exactly. 

[Fortack]

Shadow of Terror wrote...

The only way this would work is if you made the shotguns far, FAR stronger (or make the close range multiplier higher, which would probably be the better option).

Otherwise, you'll charge, and you'll die.

There isn't a (noticeable) range bonus in ME3 and you cannot use powerful shotguns because they kill recharge times (it is more or less pointless to use a shotgun actually). The ME3 Vanguard is about spamming Charge - Nova - Nova - Charge. It is a pure caster, not a combat-biotic hybrid. The average Vanguard is using powers more frequently than Adepts or Engineers. Its silly.

[EsterCloat]

RamsenC wrote...

I don't think he's saying Nova should cause longer cooldowns in general, just that the double Nova be replaced by a stronger Nova that slows cooldowns as opposed to your other choice of 25% faster cooldowns after using Nova.

Again, it's focusing on a single spec that doesn't need to be chosen. If people want to use double Nova, I don't see why it should be taken out. If anything, 25% faster cooldowns should be replaced with this stronger Nova. Give people two options: a stronger Nova that does a lot more damage and range but at the cost of cooldown or having two smaller Novas that do less damage but allow more survivability.

Modifié par EsterCloat, 02 mars 2012 - 09:40 .

[RamsenC]

I didn't pick the double nova, because I thought nova-ing twice in a row is silly (although powerful), but my flow chart is charge > shotgun face > nova > charge. Much more Vanguardy imo. I might try double nova on release just because it's so strong, but I think it's stupid honestly.

EsterCloat wrote...
Again, it's focusing on a single spec that doesn't need to be chosen. If people want to use double Nova, I don't see why it should be taken out. If anything, 25% faster cooldowns should be replaced with this stronger Nova. Give people two options: a stronger Nova that does a lot more damage and range but at the cost of cooldown or having two smaller Novas that do less damage but allow more survivability.

 

If it's clearly the best spec then everyone is going to be using it eventually. Only people ignorant of its power or people that think it's lame won't use it. 

Modifié par RamsenC, 02 mars 2012 - 09:43 .

[Fortack]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Hmm... odd how that same argument works for charge to. Charge should not restore barriers, there is no risk if it does. High Risk, High Reward... if you get shields every 3 seconds where is the risk? class NERF PLZ!

What is your point?

Nobody is asking to remove Charges regen - that indeed would make the class unplayable. The point is about Nova being a high risk power to use. Go play the ME3 Vanguard and not use Nova, ever. You will die much faster that way. Can you explain why you think Nova is a high risk power to use when it increases your survivability in (nearly) all circumstance? I cant.

[Fortack]

RamsenC wrote...

I didn't pick the double nova, because I thought nova-ing twice in a row is silly (although powerful), but my flow chart is charge > shotgun face > nova > charge. Much more Vanguardy imo. I might try double nova on release just because it's so strong, but I think it's stupid honestly.

This human understands.

[Esperys]

I play a Vanguard quite a bit, and do better with it than pretty much any other class. To preface: I don't play on bronze.

From personal experience, if Bioware decided to lower Nova's damage a good degree it wouldn't be a problem. When I'm on my vanguard AoE damage dealing isn't my focus. It's getting the attention of enemies, tanking the aggro, while my team mates eliminate the threats. The fact I kill **** tons of enemies around me in the process just seems a secondary benefit of the powers, but not the primary purpose of the powers themselves. The suggestion to lower nova damage but give it some other effect, such as lowering damage done by enemies, slowing their fire rate, etc. would actually be a bonus to the 'tanky' play style I feel that human vanguards best serves.

This opinion is based on the assumption Bioware wants me to be a tanky distraction more than a wrecking ball of nigh unstopable AoE carnage. If the latter is the case...well... Thank you devs. It's definately serving that purpose wonderfully.

[Sousabird]

Meh shockwave kinda ruined ME3's vanguard for me but I agree that the charge nova is really bad and I actually think I want your change added tbh

[Shin0biwan]

Fortack wrote...

Yes, but that has nothing to do with skill. It is bad luck.

You can call it bad luck if you want, I guess. I call it a failure to evaluate the conditions of the area that you charged into. Good Vanguards can figure out what the odds are of having their barrier broken after charge by looking at the amount and composition of the enemies in the area.

Fortack wrote... The Vanguard should be about taking risk and be rewarded for playing skillfully. That is how it is in ME2 and it is why I love the Vanguard. That is gone now.

Vanguards still need to evaluate battlefield conditions more so than any other class. That requires a very deep understanding of nearly every facet of the game. Most of the skills that were required in ME2 insanity are still at work in ME3, but Nova simply adds more options on top.

Fortack wrote... The OP is not asking to remove Nova or anything, but to change it into something that is very risky to use, and when you use it properly the reward is worth the risk. That, unfortunately is not the case right now. Nova is a tool to increase survivability - not something suicidal when used in the wrong way as it should be IMHO.

Vanguards are a high risk high reward class. That doesn't mean that absolutely every one of their powers must also be high risk high reward. Bad charges already pack plenty of risk - Nova helps mitigate it a bit, but that doesn't change the underlying dynamics of the class.

There are plenty of problems with the proposed changes to Nova in this thread. Those are all well and good, but the important bit is that the class is working absolutely fine as is, and no changes are needed.

These Vanguard debates are almost always started by misinformed individuals. They seem to think that charge+nova is perfectly invincible. When people point out that it's not, even with Nova cancelling (which actually makes you MORE vulnerable), they stick to their original position without any support, and then the argument just continues in circles. Unfortunately, I don't see an end to this cycle, but I can only hope that Bioware doesn't buy into it.

[EsterCloat]

RamsenC wrote...

I didn't pick the double nova, because I thought nova-ing twice in a row is silly (although powerful), but my flow chart is charge > shotgun face > nova > charge. Much more Vanguardy imo. I might try double nova on release just because it's so strong, but I think it's stupid honestly.

And that's your right. If you don't want to use something, then you have every right not to use it. I picked double Nova but on Gold I try not to pop the second one, since doing so would leave me without shields and on Gold having no shields can lead to death very quickly. I also carry a shotgun and use it very frequently in conjunction with Charge and half-Nova. That's how I play. Neither my way or your way is the "right" way; we just play how we prefer.

RamsenC wrote...

If it's clearly the best spec then everyone is going to be using it eventually. Only people ignorant of its power or people that think it's lame won't use it. 

Except we don't know if it's the best spec. If we added super-Nova as the secondary spec alongside half-Nova, then that might be just as good since it could theoritically wipe out all the mobs around you in one stroke, not necessitating the second Nova at all.

Modifié par EsterCloat, 02 mars 2012 - 09:52 .

[Esperys]

Shin0biwan wrote...


Vanguards are a high risk high reward class. That doesn't mean that absolutely every one of their powers must also be high risk high reward. Bad charges already pack plenty of risk - Nova helps mitigate it a bit, but that doesn't change the underlying dynamics of the class.

There are plenty of problems with the proposed changes to Nova in this thread. Those are all well and good, but the important bit is that the class is working absolutely fine as is, and no changes are needed.

These Vanguard debates are almost always started by misinformed individuals. They seem to think that charge+nova is perfectly invincible. When people point out that it's not, even with Nova cancelling (which actually makes you MORE vulnerable), they stick to their original position without any support, and then the argument just continues in circles. Unfortunately, I don't see an end to this cycle, but I can only hope that Bioware doesn't buy into it.

I've played vanguard -alot-. I promise you, I'm not misinformed. I don't think vanguards are perfectly invincible, but I do believe their damage mitigation surpasses that of almost any other class/race type. (Note: almost) When you add to that the fact the human vanguards also put out hands down more AoE damage than almost any other class there does become a balance issue in my opinion. It takes a bit of skill to make use of the mitigation and damage of the vanguard, but on higher difficulty settings, that can be said about any of the classes.

Fact is: I log onto my human vanguard when I want to faceroll a game or pick up some serious slack. I see several human soldiers on a team? Human vanguard ftw. But if I want a challenge? It's my last choice. Challenge brings with it a feeling of accomplishment. Facerolling a map on a vanguard doesn't feel like an accomplishment to me. Just seems par for the course.

[Kronner]

Shin0biwan wrote...

Vanguards are a high risk high reward class. That doesn't mean that absolutely every one of their powers must also be high risk high reward. Bad charges already pack plenty of risk - Nova helps mitigate it a bit, but that doesn't change the underlying dynamics of the class.

Of course not. I never claimed it did. I also never claimed Nova/Charge is a combination that will get you through anything. I "love" how people assume you play on ****ing Bronze if you post even the slightest indication that something seems too good/powerful.

My issue lies solely with the double Nova, its animations to be more precise. I am not sure if you understand that the animations make you very hard to kill (you can stll be killed though) between Charges. It has nothing to do with Charge, skills of the player or the basic premise of the Vanguard class.

Modifié par Kronner, 02 mars 2012 - 09:57 .

[Shadow of Terror]

Fortack wrote...

Shadow of Terror wrote...

The only way this would work is if you made the shotguns far, FAR stronger (or make the close range multiplier higher, which would probably be the better option).

Otherwise, you'll charge, and you'll die.

There isn't a (noticeable) range bonus in ME3 and you cannot use powerful shotguns because they kill recharge times (it is more or less pointless to use a shotgun actually). The ME3 Vanguard is about spamming Charge - Nova - Nova - Charge. It is a pure caster, not a combat-biotic hybrid. The average Vanguard is using powers more frequently than Adepts or Engineers. Its silly.

Erm, that was the point I was making?

You can't take away the immunity from the Nova Vanguard... or Vanguards won't have anything left.

The reason for that is because the close range bonus is not anywhere near as prevalent as it was in ME2. This means when you charge in, you are spending ages trying to kill one target with guns, while all his friends shoot you dead. The starting, lighter shotguns should (generally) kill in one shot up close, even on gold, or they aren't viable to use, and anything heavy is not viable due to recharges.

Improve the close range damage bonus, and then maybe, just maybe, the vanguard will be usable (and have to be played a lot more intelligently) otherwise the vanguard will just turn into a less effective solider who can only ever finish off a single target quicker than a normal solider.

[robarcool]

No to the suggestion in the OP, yes to fixing the nova faking bug. I myself don't use the half nova, but I think it is not that low risk as OP points out.

[RamsenC]

I'd like the Vanguard to be more about charge + shotgun honestly. Here's hoping Krogan Vanguard fills that role, if it's ever added.