66 réponses à ce sujet

[FFLB]

RamsenC wrote...

I'd like the Vanguard to be more about charge + shotgun honestly. Here's hoping Krogan Vanguard fills that role, if it's ever added.

I'd like the Krogan Vanguard to fill the role of 'Charge + Enemy = Knocked out of the map', because as it stands, we really don't have enough of that right now. 'Charge + Enemy + Wall = Splat' would also work too.

[Hyrist]

Nova faking fix is ok.

Changing Half-Nova is not. Half Nova is what makes the difference between a Charging Vanguard who survives Gold, and a Charging Vanguard who promptly dies in Gold.

[AreleX]

i think he kind of has a point. hell, i *never* die with SINGLE nova and charge (save the random Phantom lag teleport grabd here and there), I can't even imagine what double is like. that would basically make you wholly invincible until charge is up again, wouldn't it?

i use the invincibility frames of nova to eat atlas rockets and basically negate damage on reaction, and i feel that takes a little bit of skill, but being totally impervious the whole time is kinda crazy to me.

honestly, i don't use it, and i know people DO use it and enjoy it, so i'd prefer it be left alone, because once you start down that road, where do you stop? where do you draw the line? i'm not saying it's a bad idea, i'm just saying that something like this sets a bad precedent, and i feel there are more pressing matters to address (turian stability glitch/tech armor being worthless/etc)

[AreleX]

Hyrist wrote...

Nova faking fix is ok.

Changing Half-Nova is not. Half Nova is what makes the difference between a Charging Vanguard who survives Gold, and a Charging Vanguard who promptly dies in Gold.

this isn't the case at all, and i have video to prove it

[robarcool]

Hyrist wrote...

Nova faking fix is ok.

Changing Half-Nova is not. Half Nova is what makes the difference between a Charging Vanguard who survives Gold, and a Charging Vanguard who promptly dies in Gold.

Not really. I play at gold with a vanguard and while I do die many times, it is after destryoing a lot of enemies and not just after charging into them for nothing.

[Shin0biwan]

 

Esperys wrote...
I've played vanguard -alot-. I promise you, I'm not misinformed. I don't think vanguards are perfectly invincible, but I do believe their damage mitigation surpasses that of almost any other class/race type.

Can't look at that in a vacuum. Vanguards have to be the most durable class because they need to be in the riskiest situations to effectively use their skills. That's the design of the class - up close and personal, and the mitigation is necessary to achieve that end.

 

Esperys wrote... 
(Note: almost) When you add to that the fact the human vanguards also put out hands down more AoE damage than almost any other class there does become a balance issue in my opinion.

Everyone has to be the best at something. Further, this plainly falls into the "reward" component of the risk/reward ratio.

 

Esperys wrote... 
Fact is: I log onto my human vanguard when I want to faceroll a game or pick up some serious slack. I see several human soldiers on a team? Human vanguard ftw. But if I want a challenge? It's my last choice. Challenge brings with it a feeling of accomplishment. Facerolling a map on a vanguard doesn't feel like an accomplishment to me. Just seems par for the course.

 

Vanguards don't automatically faceroll, not on gold. They're certainly up there with the other effective classes, but it's only arguable that they're contributing as much as, say, an Asari adept or any Infiltrator, and even if they are contributing the most, that doesn't make it an auto-win.

Kronner wrote...

Shin0biwan wrote...

Vanguards are a high risk high reward class. That doesn't mean that absolutely every one of their powers must also be high risk high reward. Bad charges already pack plenty of risk - Nova helps mitigate it a bit, but that doesn't change the underlying dynamics of the class.

Of course not. I never claimed it did. I also never claimed Nova/Charge is a combination that will get you through anything. I "love" how people assume you play on ****ing Bronze if you post even the slightest indication that something seems too good/powerful.

Left my quote in to show how badly you misconstrued what I said.

Kronner wrote... 
My issue lies solely with the double Nova, its animations to be more precise. I am not sure if you understand that the animations make you very hard to kill (you can stll be killed though) between Charges. It has nothing to do with Charge, skills of the player or the basic premise of the Vanguard class.

I understand that if you get off a Nova keeps you invincible just fine. However, you're badly overestimating how long you're invincible for. You have brief vulnerability periods right after charge and right after nova. Sure, troopers and centurions won't give you a problem during these periods. However, other types of enemies can and will mess you up during these windows if you push your luck too hard. Atlases and Phantoms can auto-kill you before you get a chance to Nova or roll. Nemesises can snipe your shields away as you land a charge, leaving you vulnerable to the pack you just charged. Turrets can clearly kill you in this window.

As I said before, there's plenty of skill to be had in understanding what enemies can kill you and how to plan your attack pattern to minimize your exposure to those enemies while still keeping up enough of a kill rate to keep your allies from being overrun. It's not a crapshoot - it takes arguably more planning and "skill" than any other class in the game.

[D Amiri]

RamsenC wrote...

I'd like the Vanguard to be more about charge + shotgun honestly. Here's hoping Krogan Vanguard fills that role, if it's ever added.

I think the Evi is will go a long way in that direction.  A NovaGuard with the the Evi X, barrel ext. V;and a Power and capacity spec does 800 damage (150 more than Katana X).  Thats with 180% PRS or 3.17sec Charge.  If you Max weapon damage and spec charge with weapon Synergy; the Evi X is doing 1000 damage (200 more than the Katana X) with 150% PSR or 3.64 sec Charge.  That before range, ammo, or headshot bonuses.

[FFLB]

I am fairly certain that the Double Nova was implemented with the intention of giving the Vanguard more time for her cooldown to recharge, rather than just allowing her to retain half of her shields. Not to mention how this gives the Vanguard more options, not just in terms of abilities, but also with their arsenal.

Like many of the other class "suggestion" threads though, it boils down to giving a player more choices to play the way they want to play. There aren't a wide variety of choices within one class, but there is some. Oh, and could you actually imagine how an even stronger Nova would be? If players can already adapt enough to make Vanguards seem all-powerful, how long until they take advantage of an Ultra Nova and use it to take down 4 or 5 Atluses on Gold? It would be this thread all over again with the roles being reversed.

[Earadis]

I think the animation for the half-nova should just be half as long compared to the "full nova" animation.

[goofyomnivore]

The 'high risk' is gone from the Vanguard it is about as risky as an Assault Armor Sentinel from ME2. Some people like being biotic jesus I don't personally, but instead of pissing on their cupcakes I just avoid Nova/the class. It is a shame I loved the Vanguard in ME2 cus you could die for your mistakes now it is just like "oh crap, NOVA, NOVA, CHARGE" mkay I'm good.

[Arppis]

Just fix the canceling it has.

[Fortack]

Shin0biwan wrote...

You can call it bad luck if you want, I guess. I call it a failure to evaluate the conditions of the area that you charged into. Good Vanguards can figure out what the odds are of having their barrier broken after charge by looking at the amount and composition of the enemies in the area.

You cannot predict whether or not your barrier is refilled after a charge (sometime is doesn't). You cannot predict that enemies resist Charge or Nova (they do that randomly when you Charge them, or use Nova and they are in the AoE). You cannot predict enemies causing you to stagger so you are unable to use your abilities. It is luck that decides your success rate, not skill, awereness or anything of the sort.

Vanguards still need to evaluate battlefield conditions more so than any other class. That requires a very deep understanding of nearly every facet of the game. Most of the skills that were required in ME2 insanity are still at work in ME3, but Nova simply adds more options on top.

It is the exact opposite. A Vanguard has an "oh crap" button - Charge - to get them going. All other classes who walk into a death trap are doomed. It's them who need to know the battlefield better than a Vanguard. Have you ever been shot down next to a turret playing an other class? If you have, you should know that there is little to no chance to get out of that spot when you revive yourself or someone else helps you out. The turret will kill you before you've taken two steps to get somewhere safe. The Vanguard presses the Charge button and is out of this mess.

Vanguards are a high risk high reward class. That doesn't mean that absolutely every one of their powers must also be high risk high reward. Bad charges already pack plenty of risk - Nova helps mitigate it a bit, but that doesn't change the underlying dynamics of the class.

There are plenty of problems with the proposed changes to Nova in this thread. Those are all well and good, but the important bit is that the class is working absolutely fine as is, and no changes are needed.

That is your opinion and I respect that. However, I disagree because I would like Nova to be risky to use instead of a tool that dramatically increases surivivability. Charge is what keeps you alive, Nova should be a very powerful ability - much stronger than it is now - but severely decrease your survivability. I want to have the choice to unleash it and risk near instant death when used at the wrong time. Not the choice to spam it and live or gimp yourself not using it. That's it.

These Vanguard debates are almost always started by misinformed individuals. They seem to think that charge+nova is perfectly invincible. When people point out that it's not, even with Nova cancelling (which actually makes you MORE vulnerable), they stick to their original position without any support, and then the argument just continues in circles. Unfortunately, I don't see an end to this cycle, but I can only hope that Bioware doesn't buy into it.

You apparently have no clue who you're talking to. Please go and check the OP's YT channel and then tell me if you still believe he's a "misinformed individual" who has no clue what he's talking about. He's one of the best ME2 Vanguard players around and way beyond most people playing ME3. I know because I play ME3 along side him. You cannot know who I am so no hard feelings. Let me just say that I can handle myself fairly well. But believe whatever you want to believe. I couldn't care less.

[Kronner]

strive wrote...

The 'high risk' is gone from the Vanguard it is about as risky as an Assault Armor Sentinel from ME2. Some people like being biotic jesus I don't personally, but instead of pissing on their cupcakes I just avoid Nova/the class. It is a shame I loved the Vanguard in ME2 cus you could die for your mistakes now it is just like "oh crap, NOVA, NOVA, CHARGE" mkay I'm good.

Do you play Bronze only?






j/k 




I agree with you about Vanguard in ME3.

[Shin0biwan]

[quote]Fortack wrote...
You cannot predict whether or not your barrier is refilled after a charge (sometime is doesn't).[/quote]

That's just a lag issue, not a balancing issue.

[quote]Fortack wrote... 
You cannot predict that enemies resist Charge or Nova (they do that randomly when you Charge them, or use Nova and they are in the AoE).[/quote]

You absolutely can. Enemies have a cooldown before they can be staggered again so that they don't get stunlocked. Time your charges appropriately. Certain enemies are immune to stagger, like turrets.

[quote]Fortack wrote... 
You cannot predict enemies causing you to stagger so you are unable to use your abilities.[/quote]

You can't predict exactly when it'll happen, but you can figure out which enemies have a high chance to do it to you and stay away from them. Troopers, centurions, and nemesises will almost never stagger you. On the other hand, if you keep charging an Atlas, it probably will at least once before it goes down.

[quote]Fortack wrote... 
It is luck that decides your success rate, not skill, awereness or anything of the sort.[/quote]

It's not luck. Know your enemy and know the battlefield.

[quote]Fortack wrote... 
It is the exact opposite. A Vanguard has an "oh crap" button - Charge - to get them going.[/quote]

Charge as an "oh crap" button after you've gone into a situation that will probably get you killed rarely works. The enemies that give Vanguards trouble are the ones that can kill him BEFORE he can charge again (and there are plenty) - by that definition charge isn't available to save you.

[quote]Fortack wrote... 
All other classes who walk into a death trap are doomed.[/quote]

That's not at all true. My Salarian Infiltrator gets out of death traps much better than my Vanguard. Pop cloak, drain someone, then run away. Vanguards aren't particularly better at getting out of situations that give them trouble than any other class who has trouble with other situations. The only difference is that the Vanguard is much more likely to throw himself into one just due to his mechanics.

[quote]Fortack wrote... 
It's them who need to know the battlefield better than a Vanguard.[/quote]

Not really. Ranged classes only need to know their immediate surroundings. Vanguards need to know the surroundings of both where they are and where they want to be.

[quote]Fortack wrote... 
Have you ever been shot down next to a turret playing an other class?[/quote]

Yes, but it's FAR rarer than on my Vanguard.

[quote]Fortack wrote... 
If you have, you should know that there is little to no chance to get out of that spot when you revive yourself or someone else helps you out. The turret will kill you before you've taken two steps to get somewhere safe. The Vanguard presses the Charge button and is out of this mess.[/quote]

Eh, Salarian's drain-shotgun-shotgun will kill the turret when he gets back up. Plenty of classes can deal with it, and remember they'll be much less likely to be in that situation at all.

[quote]Fortack wrote... 
That is your opinion and I respect that. However, I disagree because I would like Nova to be risky to use instead of a tool that dramatically increases surivivability. Charge is what keeps you alive, Nova should be a very powerful ability - much stronger than it is now - but severely decrease your survivability. I want to have the choice to unleash it and risk near instant death when used at the wrong time. Not the choice to spam it and live or gimp yourself not using it. That's it.[/quote]

The problem, as stated many times in this thread, is that if you make that change, then the Vanguard's risk factor becomes way too high, and the reward drops significantly. Further, plenty of people like it just fine as is, and the devs designed it this way.

[quote]Fortack wrote... 
[quote]
These Vanguard debates are almost always started by misinformed individuals. They seem to think that charge+nova is perfectly invincible. When people point out that it's not, even with Nova cancelling (which actually makes you MORE vulnerable), they stick to their original position without any support, and then the argument just continues in circles. Unfortunately, I don't see an end to this cycle, but I can only hope that Bioware doesn't buy into it.[/quote]

You apparently have no clue who you're talking to. Please go and check the OP's YT channel and then tell me if you still believe he's a "misinformed individual" who has no clue what he's talking about. He's one of the best ME2 Vanguard players around and way beyond most people playing ME3. I know because I play ME3 along side him. You cannot know who I am so no hard feelings. Let me just say that I can handle myself fairly well. But believe whatever you want to believe. I couldn't care less.
[/quote]

I never said anything about the OP. I just said most people who start these debates are usually misinformed. That's true - most of them start with the notion that roll cancelling Novas gives you absolute invincibility. It doesn't. Tell me with a straight face that you haven't seen tons of people arguing that.

Also, I've been around the block long enough to know that people will only post videos of themselves when they do well. They rarely post anything that would make themselves look bad. 

[goofyomnivore]

I'm probably a little harsh on the new Vanguard, but it does play much easier even on Gold. I'm really calling the kettle black since I spent most of the day trying to solo Gold with my Salarian Infiltrator the Novaguard can't compete at all with that class.

[D Amiri]

Nova cancel invincibility should be removed from the game, but not nova cancelling. SP Nova should not be changed. But just as time dilation is not in the MP and AR and Drell Pull are different from Shep's versions; I'm not against a tweak to MP Nova.

[Esperys]

It seems like some are arguing that human vanguard should be able to sport some of the highest damage and best mitigation just because a mistake will get you killed. A mistake will get anyone killed on higher difficulty levels.I love my vanguard as it is. It's a real work horse. But I still see how one could consider it imbalanced compared to other classes. Maybe it's OP? Maybe they just under perform and need some serious buffs. Either way, there is an equality missing that the game would benefit from having.