2656 réponses à ce sujet

[Hunter of Legends]

Alex_SM wrote...

Bull****. If you are a writer, player choice is like heaven.

Is that why seemingly 95% of writers choose to ignore player choice anyway?

[Il Divo]

Alex_SM wrote...

Bull****. If you are a writer, player choice is like heaven. It allows you to write different outcomes for the same concept, allows to have different characterizations for the same character, to have multi-linear stories where, while following the same path, the main characters sees different things, etc... 

You pretty much just listed all the reasons why non-linear narratives are substantially more difficult to write. Writing one set of events vs. writing ten, or however many you decide to include.

Modifié par Il Divo, 04 mars 2012 - 06:27 .

[Wulfram]

Alex_SM wrote...

Bull****. If you are a writer, player choice is like heaven. It allows you to write different outcomes for the same concept, allows to have different characterizations for the same character, to have multi-linear stories where, while following the same path, the main characters sees different things, etc...

The player choice we're talking about in this thread never led to major differences in outcome.  Major decisions are still there.  What seems to have been cut are all the little dialogue choices that add up to a personality

[MisterJB]

CHALET wrote...
But Mr. JB, what about all those casual gamers? We might scare them away if they can't shoot something!  WE HAVE TO THINK OF THE MONEY. 

/Sarcasm.

They already have an Action Mode that allows them to play without having to think. WHAT MORE DO THEY WANT FROM US?!

[Alex_SM]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Alex_SM wrote...

Bull****. If you are a writer, player choice is like heaven.

Is that why seemingly 95% of writers choose to ignore player choice anyway?

Because 95% of people writing for games are not "game-writers". They are novel-writers, comic-writers or movie-writers. Most of them doesn't feel all those things as a benefit, because is most likely for them to not have grown up being gamers and interested in gaming narrative. They just seem to want to make their narrative closer to a movie one. 

Il Divo wrote...

Alex_SM wrote...

Bull****. If you are a writer, player choice is like heaven. It allows you to write different outcomes for the same concept, allows to have different characterizations for the same character, to have multi-linear stories where, while following the same path, the main characters sees different things, etc... 

You pretty much just listed all the reasons why non-linear narratives are substantially more difficult to write. Writing one set of events vs. writing ten, or however many you decide to include.

It's not harder, it's just longer. 

If you create your plot having in mind that it will happen, there's no problem (apart from time) to make it that way. You just need to use pivotal points to where you tie everything to keep it away from infinite branching and to retcon continuity. 

Modifié par Alex_SM, 04 mars 2012 - 06:33 .

[Il Divo]

Am I the only one feeling a little underdressed without an ME3 insignia under my avatar?

[Hunter of Legends]

Alex_SM wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Alex_SM wrote...

Bull****. If you are a writer, player choice is like heaven.

Is that why seemingly 95% of writers choose to ignore player choice anyway?

Because 95% of people writing for games are not "game-writers". They are novel-writers, comic-writers or movie-writers. Most of them doesn't feel all those things as a benefit, because is most likely for them to not have grown up being gamers and interested in gaming narrative. They just seem to want to make their narrative closer to a movie one. 

Or it's the fact that greatly branching stories are difficult to write.

[MisterJB]

phimseto wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Remember back in ME1, when we met Rear-Admiral Mikhailovich? How we could salute him or not depending on what we believed our Shepards would do?
Remember how we could allow to inspect the Normandy, how we could deny him passage or even how we could allow him in but remind him that it could not be considered a formal visit with the proper mixing of Renegade and Paragon choices?
Those were the days...

I just saw that scene last night, and it kills me now that I have seen what I have seen of ME3. The whole final game should have been full of moments like that. They have thrown away the very best parts of what made the ME experience unique.

There were three different options on just how to greet him. And it got better.
We had up to five options during the debate with him. And he was a meaningless side character.
If we have a single conversation with 5 options in ME3, I will be stunned.

[CHALET]

MisterJB wrote...

CHALET wrote...
But Mr. JB, what about all those casual gamers? We might scare them away if they can't shoot something!  WE HAVE TO THINK OF THE MONEY. 

/Sarcasm.

They already have an Action Mode that allows them to play without having to think. WHAT MORE DO THEY WANT FROM US?!

Presumably to build the entire game around "Action Mode". It feels like this was the intention from the start - the broading of the market if you will - then the true fans who would lap the finale up like hotcakes got sidelined because of the logic "the fans will buy it anyway so why bother making it for them?".  In other words Dragon Age 2.5.

BioWare is another notch on EA's list of companies they've had KIA. Poor Westwood, poor Mythic...

Modifié par CHALET, 04 mars 2012 - 06:34 .

[Il Divo]

Hunter of Legends wrote...
Or it's the fact that greatly branching stories are difficult to write.

Indeed. Whether branching stories will allow games to (potentially) surpass novels and films as a story-telling medium is a different issue, but it's definitely not easier.

Take Star Wars. Luke Skywalker has definite character development. In a branching narrative, the writer could not do that, because there'd be a million different players clamboring for their own unique response in dialogue, including the ability to murder Vader and join up with the Emperor. Branching narratives have so much potential, but they also have alot more work involved.

[mariatea]

I am wondering if am I the only one who finds it ironic that mmo like swtor lets you have more free hand at characterisation than so supposed single-player rpg?

Something just went terribly wrong up there, imho.

[DatIrishFella]

It was confirmed in the MrPikchu thread that there is ALOT of automated dialogue.

[Alex_SM]

Il Divo wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...
Or it's the fact that greatly branching stories are difficult to write.

Indeed. Whether branching stories will allow games to (potentially) surpass novels and films as a story-telling medium is a different issue, but it's definitely not easier.

Take Star Wars. Luke Skywalker has definite character development. In a branching narrative, the writer could not do that, because there'd be a million different players clamboring for their own unique response in dialogue, including the ability to murder Vader and join up with the Emperor. Branching narratives have so much potential, but they also have alot more work involved.

But that's what should be expected. Games still need their own "Birth of a Nation" to establish the medium as a real art form and not just a little brother of others.

And the sap part is that ME franchise could have been it if they had gone deeper into their "choices and consecuencies" concept. 

Modifié par Alex_SM, 04 mars 2012 - 06:39 .

[CHALET]

mariatea wrote...

I am wondering if am I the only one who finds it ironic that mmo like swtor lets you have more free hand at characterisation than so supposed single-player rpg?

Something just went terribly wrong up there, imho.

Most likely because The Old Republic was in development about the time Mass Effect was wrapping up. Mass Effect 3 had about two-three years I think? By then there was enough time to dumb it down without overhauling the game itself. If the TORtanic gets an expansion pack () I reckon they'll follow the ME3 model.

Modifié par CHALET, 04 mars 2012 - 06:45 .

[Chrumpek]

mariatea wrote...

I am wondering if am I the only one who finds it ironic that mmo like swtor lets you have more free hand at characterisation than so supposed single-player rpg?

Something just went terribly wrong up there, imho.

Yep that's kinda sad, ofc your choicewere only how to reply in what tone and to either accept//deny quest or do good//bad deed - still it was awesome and for RPG fans really could make their character unique.

[Hunter of Legends]

Il Divo wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...
Or it's the fact that greatly branching stories are difficult to write.

Indeed. Whether branching stories will allow games to (potentially) surpass novels and films as a story-telling medium is a different issue, but it's definitely not easier.

That needs more time I'm afraid.

Mass Effect was  astep in the right direction IMO. Choices actually did something!

[Il Divo]

Alex_SM wrote...

But that's what should be expected. Games still need their own "Birth of a Nation" to establish the medium as a real art form and not just a little brother of others.

But you're missing my point. I absolutely agree that if games want to provide their own unique experience, then interactive story-telling is the way to go, including dialogue options and branching choices. But while I think it's important/necessary, that doesn't mean I think it's easier for a writer, especially in comparison to other mediums where they only have to take into account one set of events.

[Il Divo]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...
Or it's the fact that greatly branching stories are difficult to write.

Indeed. Whether branching stories will allow games to (potentially) surpass novels and films as a story-telling medium is a different issue, but it's definitely not easier.

That needs more time I'm afraid.

Mass Effect was  astep in the right direction IMO. Choices actually did something!

Agreed. We're not there yet, but we are making headway. And not just with Bioware games, but as a whole.

[android654]

DatIrishFella wrote...

It was confirmed in the MrPikchu thread that there is ALOT of automated dialogue.

Congrats to him. We confirmed it thirty pages ago.

[Il Divo]

android654 wrote...

DatIrishFella wrote...

It was confirmed in the MrPikchu thread that there is ALOT of automated dialogue.

Congrats to him. We confirmed it thirty pages ago.

As a side note, are our french brethren back online yet?

[PlumPaul93]

Hope you can at least choose what you say during conversations with TIM or the council. Doubt it though.

[Takio]

If it really is that bad, I am actually willing to pay for more dialogue choices and **** about it later. Hopefully it won't come to that, say can dialogue be patched?

[android654]

Il Divo wrote...

android654 wrote...

DatIrishFella wrote...

It was confirmed in the MrPikchu thread that there is ALOT of automated dialogue.

Congrats to him. We confirmed it thirty pages ago.

As a side note, are our french brethren back online yet?

Not yet. The UK guys went up but only played the end of Palaven. It's the same amount of auto dialogue as before, while meeting an important person in a serious situation.

[CHALET]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Hope you can at least choose what you say during conversations with TIM or the council. Doubt it though.

Apparently not. Somebody commented that the Council chat was one big auto-dialogue but somebody else had better confirm.

[android654]

CHALET wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Hope you can at least choose what you say during conversations with TIM or the council. Doubt it though.

Apparently not. Somebody commented that the Council chat was one big auto-dialogue but somebody else had better confirm.

You select two things in about 6 minutes of video. Then it switches to another scene that's about three minutes with one selection.