2656 réponses à ce sujet

[DatIrishFella]

matt-bassist wrote...

android654 wrote...

I love how people think PoliteAssassin, myself and others are trolling. We all saw hours last night and dialogue shoehorns you into being a tailored character and less of your character you spent two games building.

But to what end would BioWare choose to sabotage such a tried, tested and successful mechanic? The reason I find it literally impossible to believe is because this is a mechanic everyone likes, is familiar with, and, quite frankly it works really well.

Why would BioWare decide to butcher such a mechanic? To what end? There's no sense in it. In ACTION MODE I can see this being the case because they are catering to the COD crowd and making it more explosions, less emotion, but why would they make RPG  MODE the same and remove the choice option during dialogue?

If you can tell me WHY they would choose to do such a stupid thing, like for what reason, then I will believe you. And don't say "Its because they want to streamline the game for new consumers/COD crowd ETC ETC" that is the reason ACTION MODE exists.

Well, according to Casey, fan feedback suggested that some people were "intimadated" by having to make choices themselves and/or found the dialogue wheel to be a "burden" 

Whoever these "fans" are, I really feel sorry for them if they find pressing buttons intimadating. 

[Jaron Oberyn]

matt-bassist wrote...

If you can tell me WHY they would choose to do such a stupid thing, like for what reason, then I will believe you. And don't say "Its because they want to streamline the game for new consumers/COD crowd ETC ETC" that is the reason ACTION MODE exists.

Simple. I believe the link is i the OP now, but they stated that they loved how cutscenes were in Uncharted 2, that you didn't need to have interaction and it was fun to watch the "compelling" characters just talk. They stated that that's what they strived for in ME3. 


-Polite

[JeffZero]

aksoileau wrote...

Even if this is the case, there are still 1000s of more lines in ME3 than ME2 and ME1.

Certainly so. Early players have been largely unanimous in recognizing the increase in script length. Those in-the-know enough to have extracted file folders have been impressed. The old "40,000 lines in ME3" statement from last year should never have been developer down-played; it looks like it's absolutely so.

[Cody211282]

aksoileau wrote...

Even if this is the case, there are still 1000s of more lines in ME3 than ME2 and ME1.

That's just a number though and not the point of the ME franchise, just because there is a lot of something doesn't mean it's good.

[Il Divo]

matt-bassist wrote...

android654 wrote...

I love how people think PoliteAssassin, myself and others are trolling. We all saw hours last night and dialogue shoehorns you into being a tailored character and less of your character you spent two games building.

But to what end would BioWare choose to sabotage such a tried, tested and successful mechanic? The reason I find it literally impossible to believe is because this is a mechanic everyone likes, is familiar with, and, quite frankly it works really well.

Why would BioWare decide to butcher such a mechanic? To what end? There's no sense in it. In ACTION MODE I can see this being the case because they are catering to the COD crowd and making it more explosions, less emotion, but why would they make RPG  MODE the same and remove the choice option during dialogue?

If you can tell me WHY they would choose to do such a stupid thing, like for what reason, then I will believe you. And don't say "Its because they want to streamline the game for new consumers/COD crowd ETC ETC" that is the reason ACTION MODE exists.

Because it's easier. Between action mode and kinect, you have two different features whose implementation depends on just how much dialogue you give your protagonist. Shepard uses the dialogue wheel a million times in ME1 and 2. What's easier to code, for both action mode and kinect? 300 uses of the dialogue wheel? Or 50?

[Corvus Metus]

jkvaughn wrote...

To me the dialog style in ME1 was the best. Being able to interact with the various caracters is part of what makes it an rpg. The more interaction the better

Being able to interact with various characters makes a modern RPG, as defined the games produced by Black Isle in the mid to late 90's, including Bioware's own Baldur's Gate series, Fallout, and Planescape: Torment.

Character interaction is not a requirement for an RPG.   A lot of the old "gold box" AD&D titles had little to no character interaction and most roguelike games more or less throw you in a dungeon for no reason.  Yet they are still RPGs.  While that is irrelvant to the topic, its just a little nitpick I have.

[JeffZero]

gearseffect wrote...

ME3 will loose everything that made the series great for me.

The characters, dammit.

[idoless24]

JeffZero wrote...

idoless24 wrote...

On a serious note though..I am pretty disappointed by this. I'm still going to get my CE copy and judge for myself but I'm pretty ticked already about a number of things.

I'm on-the-fence about it right now. Waiting to see for myself firsthand. But if you find that you despise it, be sure to let the developers know afterward. Contrary to popular belief, BioWare can be pretty good about listening to fan feedback.

Agreed. I can see auto dialogue making sense only in a scenario where stuff is happening too fast (ex: Shep's running and gunning as he/she is barking orders while the Reapers attack) but otherwise I really enjoy spending time crafting my own responses.

[Il Divo]

Corvus Metus wrote...

jkvaughn wrote...

To me the dialog style in ME1 was the best. Being able to interact with the various caracters is part of what makes it an rpg. The more interaction the better

Being able to interact with various characters makes a modern RPG, as defined the games produced by Black Isle in the mid to late 90's, including Bioware's own Baldur's Gate series, Fallout, and Planescape: Torment.

Character interaction is not a requirement for an RPG.   A lot of the old "gold box" AD&D titles had little to no character interaction and most roguelike games more or less throw you in a dungeon for no reason.  Yet they are still RPGs.  While that is irrelvant to the topic, its just a little nitpick I have.

I just got back into Baldur's Gate about a week ago. After that, I plan on making my way back around into Torment. Good times.

[jkvaughn]

ME 2 might be the last rpg style game in the series but ME1 is what set the bar for me. I've seen people click through a lot of dialog but I listen to everything. Puts me in the game

[Darkfoxz87]

aksoileau wrote...

Even if this is the case, there are still 1000s of more lines in ME3 than ME2 and ME1.

And? If the majortiy is auto this isn't Mass Effect. I would take half of those if it meant I could get more choices. I understand you need Auto Dialogue in certain sitiations (I.E. The Suicide Mission) but this is just too much.

[DatIrishFella]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Legion64 wrote...

Perhaps dialogue only lacks while you're in the middle of action in a mission. If you're in a casual place to relax like the Normandy or Citadel, you get some good dialogue options out of it.

Sorry but as we've said that's not the case. When your talking to important individuals on the normandy, including your squad mates, it's all automatic with a few choices here and there to be hopeful or angry at the reapers. That's literally the only choices we get now, to say if we're hopeful for the future, or angered at the reapers. 


http://www.twitch.tv...tuk/b/310594419

Here's a portion of the UK stream. Start at the 25:00 minute marker and watch. Now imagine that for every conversation - That's how it is. And some conversations don't have that 1 choice at all. I would link to the others, but the France stream doesn't have the vids archived. Spoilers though, beware. The part I'm linking picks up shortly after the GS video stops.


-Polite

Oh God, this isn't getting any better. 

[gabe2gg]

Matt VT Schlo wrote...

Bioware is clearly shifting from the RPG type crowd to the Modern Warfare/Battlefield type crowd. Auto dialogue is another step toward becoming an all out action game with RPG elements, not the other way around

Its EA not Bioware, I knew this would happen.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Corvus Metus wrote...

jkvaughn wrote...

To me the dialog style in ME1 was the best. Being able to interact with the various caracters is part of what makes it an rpg. The more interaction the better

Being able to interact with various characters makes a modern RPG, as defined the games produced by Black Isle in the mid to late 90's, including Bioware's own Baldur's Gate series, Fallout, and Planescape: Torment.

Character interaction is not a requirement for an RPG.   A lot of the old "gold box" AD&D titles had little to no character interaction and most roguelike games more or less throw you in a dungeon for no reason.  Yet they are still RPGs.  While that is irrelvant to the topic, its just a little nitpick I have.

Dialogue interaction and the ability to roleplay a character through such interaction is the ONLY mechanic exclusive to RPGs. Everything else is seen in Adventure games, strategy games, TPS games etc. 

I daresay a game is not an RPG unless dialogue interaction and choice in general is prevalent. The prominent aspect of table top RPG's was in fact taking up a role and acting out the character you created. 

What do we have when an RPG lacks this interaction and choice? Just your average strategy/TPS/adventure game.

[JeffZero]

Well Polite, on the up side had more people seen the forest for the trees with us several weeks ago it still wouldn't have accomplished anything: the game was already spiraling close to gold.

[JeffZero]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

What do we have when an RPG lacks this interaction and choice? Just your average strategy/TPS/adventure game.

I really wish I wasn't in the minority on this site having grown up with JRPGs. No way in hell was Final Fantasy VII a strategy/TPS/adventure game. No way in hell.

Don't get me wrong Gibb, I largely agree with you in the case of Mass Effect, but damn, there were plenty of RPGs that didn't emphasize the same things BioWare used to aim for.

[Il Divo]

JeffZero wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

What do we have when an RPG lacks this interaction and choice? Just your average strategy/TPS/adventure game.

I really wish I wasn't in the minority on this site having grown up with JRPGs. No way in hell was Final Fantasy VII a strategy/TPS/adventure game. No way in hell.

Don't get me wrong Gibb, I largely agree with you in the case of Mass Effect, but damn, there were plenty of RPGs that didn't emphasize the same things BioWare used to aim for.

Dark Souls. And I love that game like hell.

[JeffZero]

Il Divo wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

What do we have when an RPG lacks this interaction and choice? Just your average strategy/TPS/adventure game.

I really wish I wasn't in the minority on this site having grown up with JRPGs. No way in hell was Final Fantasy VII a strategy/TPS/adventure game. No way in hell.

Don't get me wrong Gibb, I largely agree with you in the case of Mass Effect, but damn, there were plenty of RPGs that didn't emphasize the same things BioWare used to aim for.

Dark Souls. And I love that game like hell.

Certainly. A wonderful modern example that just so happens to be from Japan at that! The story in that game is found because you searched for it. The dialogue is sparse and the player choices range from walking toward one expansive location or fleeing from it.

[android654]

This was BW's best feature, without it it lacks any defining characteristics that make it stand out. No real reason to get excited for it any more.

[Darkfoxz87]

DatIrishFella wrote...

matt-bassist wrote...

android654 wrote...

I love how people think PoliteAssassin, myself and others are trolling. We all saw hours last night and dialogue shoehorns you into being a tailored character and less of your character you spent two games building.

But to what end would BioWare choose to sabotage such a tried, tested and successful mechanic? The reason I find it literally impossible to believe is because this is a mechanic everyone likes, is familiar with, and, quite frankly it works really well.

Why would BioWare decide to butcher such a mechanic? To what end? There's no sense in it. In ACTION MODE I can see this being the case because they are catering to the COD crowd and making it more explosions, less emotion, but why would they make RPG MODE the same and remove the choice option during dialogue?

If you can tell me WHY they would choose to do such a stupid thing, like for what reason, then I will believe you. And don't say "Its because they want to streamline the game for new consumers/COD crowd ETC ETC" that is the reason ACTION MODE exists.

Well, according to Casey, fan feedback suggested that some people were "intimadated" by having to make choices themselves and/or found the dialogue wheel to be a "burden"

Whoever these "fans" are, I really feel sorry for them if they find pressing buttons intimadating.

Burden? How the heck could people think choices is burden?
Okay people think choices are a burden, so have them play on action, you put that in there for this reason. Dont take out Dialogue in RPG for the sake of a small % of the people.
 
I'm fine with Bioware trying to expand the game to other people. But dont turn the cold shoulder to the fans that have been here since 1 (or 2 in my case).

Modifié par Darkfoxz87, 05 mars 2012 - 01:45 .

[DTKT]

JeffZero wrote...

Well Polite, on the up side had more people seen the forest for the trees with us several weeks ago it still wouldn't have accomplished anything: the game was already spiraling close to gold.

 The changes in ME3 have been in place for a very long time. I doubt that fan-feedback would have changed that.

Even since the "we need to reach a more casual audience", "we need to appeal to every single new player" "we need to COD/BF market", ME3 was bound to be drastically different that it's predecessors.

And it doesn't seem it was for the best.

[RamirezWolfen]

I'm okay with this. I actually just like watching cutscenes and stuff, not selecting response after response.

[FryPanNN]

Personally when I played the games, I saved and reloaded each time there were dialogue options to choose what was best for my roleplaying and I didn't find intimidating or annoying at all, just made me like the games even more. Now it seems I won't have to do that this time around.

[Sarevok Synder]

Yep; this is most definitely my last Bioware game.

[JeffZero]

DTKT wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Well Polite, on the up side had more people seen the forest for the trees with us several weeks ago it still wouldn't have accomplished anything: the game was already spiraling close to gold.

 The changes in ME3 have been in place for a very long time. I doubt that fan-feedback would have changed that.

Yeah, that was my point. The silver lining coming out of that forum conflict getting called all sorts of things for believing the demo's auto-dialogue levels were indicative of the final product is that at least we can safely know that had things gone otherwise, had more people agreed with us, it wouldn't have made a lick of difference anyway. Call it silver lining done in the style of Italian Neorealism or something -- life sucks but at least there wasn't an option to change that!