2656 réponses à ce sujet

[sp0ck 06]

Il Divo wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

As for autodialogue,  I'll wait to maybe play the game before making any judgment.  Amazing what people will rage about based off nothing but a demo and rumors.

Clearly you have not been paying attention to the topic. If you want to judge the game for yourself, by all means. But this topic is not based on the demo or the rumors.

You're correct.  But I maintain my stance that ME is in many ways in intensely personal game.  I would hesitate to judge it based on watching a stream of someone else playing.  

I mean, the freaking thing comes out in a day.  Can't everyone just wait, play, and then render judgement?

[Hunter of Legends]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

The two dialogue system is pretty prevelnt in ME1 too.

Just double check those "neutral" choices:?

Quite right.

Why do we forget ME2? It's like the game was never made to some of you people. ME2 never had repeat dialogue with the neutral choice. 

Commenting on ME1 means I forgot ME2? Don't quite follow your logic. Does commenting on ME1 automatically require a comment on ME2?

Okay with ME2, there were a lot of 2 choice dialogues. There were a few with Neutral choices that were pretty much the same thing as Paragon - sometimes with or without the Paragon points. Sometimes the Neutral choice was nuanced enough to be worth picking over Paragon. I found most of the time the Paragon and Renegade choices were better at being different choices. Another problem with the Neutral answer in ME2  (besides being essentially the same thing as the Paragon answer) was that anyone hunting for Paragon or Renegade points didn't feel very comfortable choosing it, thus taking away a portion of its effectiveness as a choice.

Perhaps, if over the whole of the game there are now more "auto-dialogue's" it is an attempt to take out some of the flaws of the ME1 and ME2 dialogue systems. Can't wait to try it out tomorrow evening.

People aren't seeing the possibilities with this new style of dialogue choice.:happy:

It will be rough but maybe choice in future titles will make even bigger differences; perhaps deat I say different narratives?

[Gibb_Shepard]

People always use ME1's dialogue system to justify the lack of a neutral option. It's stupid, because ME2 fixed that.

And the neutral option was never the same as the paragon. It fulfilled it's purpose. To remain neutral in a situation. It was perfect when you wanted your character to be indifferent on a particular subject or wanted to avoid taking sides. It provided great roleplaying opportunities.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 05 mars 2012 - 03:27 .

[Il Divo]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

You're correct.  But I maintain my stance that ME is in many ways in intensely personal game.  I would hesitate to judge it based on watching a stream of someone else playing.  

I mean, the freaking thing comes out in a day.  Can't everyone just wait, play, and then render judgement?

Depends on what we're judging. As of now, I don't see much reason to believe that my playthrough is going to give me extensive dialogue options when other imported, RPG-mode Shepards do not have similar features. Sure, the story may be good and that' something more easily judged as I'm experiencing it, but I'll still consider that a huge step backwards from what I play Bioware games for. Mass Effect was personal in so far as I felt like I was actively participating in the experience, which requires more than just killing things as Commander Shepard.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 mars 2012 - 03:27 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

People always use ME1's dialogue system to justify the lack of a neutral option. It's stupid, because ME2 fixed that.

And the neutral option was never the same as the paragon. Don;t really have anything to say here, it fulfilled it's purpose. To remain neutral in a situation. It was perfect when you wanted your character to be indifferent on a particular subject or wanted to avoid taking sides. It provided great roleplaying opportunities.

No, alot of Mass Effect 2 "neutral" options weren't really different; especially considering how little effect playing neutral has in Me2.

The biggest complaint was that neutrallity was a bad thing.

[shepskisaac]

mariatea wrote...

Not really. It depends of situation but i'm afraid that most of the plot related and squadmates convos are horribly autodialogued. f.e. in one Garrus convo during 7 mins you recieve wheel 3 times. 2 times with 2 options and once with investigation only.

The convos in not combat areas do have quite Investigation options through

??? Dialogue wheel appearing only 3 times during 1 convo with squadmates is not that uncommon actually. How come such conversation could take 7 minutes? Is it the case that the wheel appears more/less as much as in previous games but the characters keep talking SIGNIFICANTLY longer? Because seriously, Garrus never had a 7 minutes conversation in ME2, not even 4 minutes lol

[Hunter of Legends]

IsaacShep wrote...

mariatea wrote...

Not really. It depends of situation but i'm afraid that most of the plot related and squadmates convos are horribly autodialogued. f.e. in one Garrus convo during 7 mins you recieve wheel 3 times. 2 times with 2 options and once with investigation only.

The convos in not combat areas do have quite Investigation options through

??? Dialogue wheel appearing only 3 times during 1 convo with squadmates is not that uncommon actually. How come such conversation could take 7 minutes? Is it the case that the wheel appears more/less as much as in previous games but the characters keep talking SIGNIFICANTLY longer? Because seriously, Garrus never had a 7 minutes conversation in ME2, not even 4 minutes lol

That's one thing.  Characters talk alot more now.

[Almostfaceman]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

People always use ME1's dialogue system to justify the lack of a neutral option. It's stupid, because ME2 fixed that.

And the neutral option was never the same as the paragon. It fulfilled it's purpose. To remain neutral in a situation. It was perfect when you wanted your character to be indifferent on a particular subject or wanted to avoid taking sides. It provided great roleplaying opportunities.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that.

I for one am not pointing it out to "justify" anything, since I haven't decided if I like or do not like the ME3 style of dialogue. I'm simply pointing out that the dialogue system had flaws, as did ME2.

[mariatea]

IsaacShep wrote...

mariatea wrote...

Not really. It depends of situation but i'm afraid that most of the plot related and squadmates convos are horribly autodialogued. f.e. in one Garrus convo during 7 mins you recieve wheel 3 times. 2 times with 2 options and once with investigation only.

The convos in not combat areas do have quite Investigation options through

??? Dialogue wheel appearing only 3 times during 1 convo with squadmates is not that uncommon actually. How come such conversation could take 7 minutes? Is it the case that the wheel appears more/less as much as in previous games but the characters keep talking SIGNIFICANTLY longer? Because seriously, Garrus never had a 7 minutes conversation in ME2, not even 4 minutes lol

Less than in previous games. And after chosing characters talk significally longer, plus Shepards responds a few times without possible choice.. 7 minutes when counting all the time to answer questions in the investigation wheel

[Dragoonlordz]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

The two dialogue system is pretty prevelnt in ME1 too.

Just double check those "neutral" choices:?

Quite right.

Why do we forget ME2? It's like the game was never made to some of you people. ME2 never had repeat dialogue with the neutral choice. 

Commenting on ME1 means I forgot ME2? Don't quite follow your logic. Does commenting on ME1 automatically require a comment on ME2?

Okay with ME2, there were a lot of 2 choice dialogues. There were a few with Neutral choices that were pretty much the same thing as Paragon - sometimes with or without the Paragon points. Sometimes the Neutral choice was nuanced enough to be worth picking over Paragon. I found most of the time the Paragon and Renegade choices were better at being different choices. Another problem with the Neutral answer in ME2  (besides being essentially the same thing as the Paragon answer) was that anyone hunting for Paragon or Renegade points didn't feel very comfortable choosing it, thus taking away a portion of its effectiveness as a choice.

Perhaps, if over the whole of the game there are now more "auto-dialogue's" it is an attempt to take out some of the flaws of the ME1 and ME2 dialogue systems. Can't wait to try it out tomorrow evening.

People aren't seeing the possibilities with this new style of dialogue choice.:happy:

It will be rough but maybe choice in future titles will make even bigger differences; perhaps deat I say different narratives?

I know the possiblities of this system, they are trying to copy and paste it from DA2. I saw the flaws in it then and I assume and believe the flaws will exist in it now within ME3. I wrote quite extensively about the flaws I saw in DA2's system here and here plus also here and here.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 05 mars 2012 - 03:36 .

[shepskisaac]

Hunter of Legends wrote...
That's one thing.  Characters talk alot more now.

Ok, I'm a LITTLE less pesimistic now, but I'll reserve the judgement till the final game.

[Hunter of Legends]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

The two dialogue system is pretty prevelnt in ME1 too.

Just double check those "neutral" choices:?

Quite right.

Why do we forget ME2? It's like the game was never made to some of you people. ME2 never had repeat dialogue with the neutral choice. 

Commenting on ME1 means I forgot ME2? Don't quite follow your logic. Does commenting on ME1 automatically require a comment on ME2?

Okay with ME2, there were a lot of 2 choice dialogues. There were a few with Neutral choices that were pretty much the same thing as Paragon - sometimes with or without the Paragon points. Sometimes the Neutral choice was nuanced enough to be worth picking over Paragon. I found most of the time the Paragon and Renegade choices were better at being different choices. Another problem with the Neutral answer in ME2  (besides being essentially the same thing as the Paragon answer) was that anyone hunting for Paragon or Renegade points didn't feel very comfortable choosing it, thus taking away a portion of its effectiveness as a choice.

Perhaps, if over the whole of the game there are now more "auto-dialogue's" it is an attempt to take out some of the flaws of the ME1 and ME2 dialogue systems. Can't wait to try it out tomorrow evening.

People aren't seeing the possibilities with this new style of dialogue choice.:happy:

It will be rough but maybe choice in future titles will make even bigger differences; perhaps deat I say different narratives?

I know the possiblities of this system, they are trying to copy and paste it from DA2. I saw the flaws in it then and I assume and believe the flaws will exist in it now within ME3.

I wrote quite extensively about the flaws I saw in DA2's system here and here plus also here and here if of interest. 

You see no positives to this type of system?

[Dragoonlordz]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

You see no positives to this type of system?

The positives won't happen (imho) unless remove the flaws. Which is ironic that requires such simple solution that either myself explained or more comprehensive and detailed but praised version was Crusty's solution. This solution is not in ME3 because nothing seen so far shows such to be the case.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 05 mars 2012 - 03:40 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

People always use ME1's dialogue system to justify the lack of a neutral option. It's stupid, because ME2 fixed that.

And the neutral option was never the same as the paragon. Don;t really have anything to say here, it fulfilled it's purpose. To remain neutral in a situation. It was perfect when you wanted your character to be indifferent on a particular subject or wanted to avoid taking sides. It provided great roleplaying opportunities.

No, alot of Mass Effect 2 "neutral" options weren't really different; especially considering how little effect playing neutral has in Me2.

The biggest complaint was that neutrallity was a bad thing.

That's ridiculous. No one complained about neutrality. Why would someone want to hinder their dialogue choices? Makes no sense.

And who cares if you get badass points or not. I didn't give a crap whether or not i got good boy points when being neutral. I chose the dialogue that my character would choose, and that was often neutral dialogue, because he was a cautious man.

I can't believe we're arguing over lessening dialogue choices. Getting rid of the neutral option because you didn't use it is ridiculous. Neutrality is a terrific roleplaying tool. 

[phimseto]

For me, it comes down to one simple fact: the previous two games were defined by giving players a high degree of control over how their character acted in conversations and by delivering much of the game's story, subplots, and setting through those dialogues. To radically change that in the third and final game is a very misguided decision. They could have done whatever they wanted in future games. Now was the time to finish what they started, not start discarding what made the series beloved in order to craft a different audience.


From the inexplicable start of the game (so many returning players will be confused and left in a lurch) to the autodialogue to the thin gruel streamlining of what choices are there...there is a lot to make returning fans feel left out in the cold. For me, I still can't get over that I ended ME2 flush with satisfaction that I saved my crew to them being completely gone and replaced, and that's supposed to be ok with me and with no option to change.

The roleplaying is what made the game great. Now I watch Shepard sulk and pout, not because I chose that response to define that moment in the story but because BW decided that it fits some vague generic kind of drama that has nothing to do with my experience in ME1 or 2.

[phimseto]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

People always use ME1's dialogue system to justify the lack of a neutral option. It's stupid, because ME2 fixed that.

And the neutral option was never the same as the paragon. Don;t really have anything to say here, it fulfilled it's purpose. To remain neutral in a situation. It was perfect when you wanted your character to be indifferent on a particular subject or wanted to avoid taking sides. It provided great roleplaying opportunities.

No, alot of Mass Effect 2 "neutral" options weren't really different; especially considering how little effect playing neutral has in Me2.

The biggest complaint was that neutrallity was a bad thing.

That's ridiculous. No one complained about neutrality. Why would someone want to hinder their dialogue choices? Makes no sense.

And who cares if you get badass points or not. I didn't give a crap whether or not i got good boy points when being neutral. I chose the dialogue that my character would choose, and that was often neutral dialogue, because he was a cautious man.

I can't believe we're arguing over lessening dialogue choices. Getting rid of the neutral option because you didn't use it is ridiculous. Neutrality is a terrific roleplaying tool. 

Absolutely this. And I used it all the time. In fact, so many autodialogue scenes are cringe worthy specifically because they go paragon or renegade at moments I absolutely would have chosen neutral.

But then its not my Shepard's story anymore because apparently no one needed that pesky roleplaying part and other players couldn't handle the dialogue wheel without drooling and breaking out into hives.

[Bleachrude]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...



That's ridiculous. No one complained about neutrality. Why would someone want to hinder their dialogue choices? Makes no sense.

And who cares if you get badass points or not. I didn't give a crap whether or not i got good boy points when being neutral. I chose the dialogue that my character would choose, and that was often neutral dialogue, because he was a cautious man.

I can't believe we're arguing over lessening dialogue choices. Getting rid of the neutral option because you didn't use it is ridiculous. Neutrality is a terrific roleplaying tool. 

I agree and disagree with this point...Agree in that neutrality should be a viable option choice but disagree that ME2 uses it well.

The problem many had with neutrality is that it actually affected your choices later on in the game...For example, Zaeed's loyalty mission, the miranda/jack and tali/legion showdowns were affected by how "neutral" you had been in earlier parts of the game..

That is what annoyed so many people...

[XwebraiderX]

Oh man. I was SO excited for this game. Now I am almost afraid to play it. Damn you, interweb forums!

[Gibb_Shepard]

Bleachrude wrote...

I agree and disagree with this point...Agree in that neutrality should be a viable option choice but disagree that ME2 uses it well.

The problem many had with neutrality is that it actually affected your choices later on in the game...For example, Zaeed's loyalty mission, the miranda/jack and tali/legion showdowns were affected by how "neutral" you had been in earlier parts of the game..

That is what annoyed so many people...

Not that i cared much about being able to use  "I win" dialogue options, but getting rid of neutrality is definitely the dumbest way to fix this. A 10 year old could figure that an ammendment to the system would stop these complaints, not discarding neutrality altogether. But BW like to get rid of things that aren't up to scratch. They're not really that fond of repairing things.

[Almostfaceman]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

That's ridiculous. No one complained about neutrality. Why would someone want to hinder their dialogue choices? Makes no sense.

And who cares if you get badass points or not. I didn't give a crap whether or not i got good boy points when being neutral. I chose the dialogue that my character would choose, and that was often neutral dialogue, because he was a cautious man.

I can't believe we're arguing over lessening dialogue choices. Getting rid of the neutral option because you didn't use it is ridiculous. Neutrality is a terrific roleplaying tool. 

No one complained? I've read several complaints. Mostly tied to the Paragon/Renegade system. You have to keep in mind that though YOU may have found value in the Neutral response, Bioware may have looked at how often it was used and decided that people were more interested in playing either the White Knight or Riddick. Perhaps the majority really liked having those badass points. Given that they have a limited amount of resources, they may have balanced things out and decided to minimize Neutral choices. I'm not sure yet, since I haven't played the game, I'm just theorizing.

[bleetman]

Bleachrude wrote...

I agree and disagree with this point...Agree in that neutrality should be a viable option choice but disagree that ME2 uses it well.

The problem many had with neutrality is that it actually affected your choices later on in the game...For example, Zaeed's loyalty mission, the miranda/jack and tali/legion showdowns were affected by how "neutral" you had been in earlier parts of the game..

That is what annoyed so many people...

Yes, and I was one of them. That, however, is a problem with how the paragon/renegade system tied into the persuade conversation options (namely: 'you must be this blue to say this'), and how vital passing those requirements were to several fairly fundamental plot moments. Chopping out the neutral option is one way to avoid that, sure. It's also probably the worst way.

Modifié par bleetman, 05 mars 2012 - 03:58 .

[Bawseee]

Hey guys... I heard there's a lot of auto-dialogue in this game. Confirm?

[Hunter of Legends]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I can't believe we're arguing over lessening dialogue choices. Getting rid of the neutral option because you didn't use it is ridiculous. Neutrality is a terrific roleplaying tool. 

It is but only if done right and/or not effecting the gameplay.

ME1 and ME2 failed; had they used ME3 repuatation for ME2 they wouldn't have and neutrality would have been great!

[Hunter of Legends]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

I agree and disagree with this point...Agree in that neutrality should be a viable option choice but disagree that ME2 uses it well.

The problem many had with neutrality is that it actually affected your choices later on in the game...For example, Zaeed's loyalty mission, the miranda/jack and tali/legion showdowns were affected by how "neutral" you had been in earlier parts of the game..

That is what annoyed so many people...

Not that i cared much about being able to use  "I win" dialogue options, but getting rid of neutrality is definitely the dumbest way to fix this. A 10 year old could figure that an ammendment to the system would stop these complaints, not discarding neutrality altogether. But BW like to get rid of things that aren't up to scratch. They're not really that fond of repairing things.

But we are assessing flaws within each respective game.

We never discussed fixes.