2656 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

phimseto wrote...

Rickin10 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...


 The only thing I disliked about the Defence Committee scene was the lines Shepard delivered.

 And this is the essence of the problem.

Haha...a succinct summarization of the past 85 pages! One of the critical speeches of the entire series for what it represents, and you have very little input into it. Though for me its worse because the way the top brass is written is so awful - as if they were civilians on the street instead of career officers and leaders of men.

 If you watch Committee meetings, at least amongst politicians, such remarks wouldn't be ludicrously out of place

 And I am not certain the bad lines in that scene are the essence of the problem of auto-dialogue, there are multiple instances throughout all of Mass Effect where you are given the option of two equally bad lines..

 This is an example of lines you or I don't like, the problem is not entirely with the auto-dialogue

I'm inclined to say it's the autodialogue. The problem isn't that Shepard occasionally says things without provocation, but the sheer volume of autodialogue present in the demo creates a dramatically different tone from that present in ME1 or ME2. I don't have to have a problem with any particular line (though that can also be an issue), as much as observing the lack of control over my character's actions.

[phimseto]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

phimseto wrote...

Rickin10 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...


 The only thing I disliked about the Defence Committee scene was the lines Shepard delivered.

 And this is the essence of the problem.

Haha...a succinct summarization of the past 85 pages! One of the critical speeches of the entire series for what it represents, and you have very little input into it. Though for me its worse because the way the top brass is written is so awful - as if they were civilians on the street instead of career officers and leaders of men.

 If you watch Committee meetings, at least amongst politicians, such remarks wouldn't be ludicrously out of place

 And I am not certain the bad lines in that scene are the essence of the problem of auto-dialogue, there are multiple instances throughout all of Mass Effect where you are given the option of two equally bad lines..

 This is an example of lines you or I don't like, the problem is not entirely with the auto-dialogue

You are right about politicians. It is why council scenes have always been so deliciously infuriating, and all the more disappointing for how the scene plays when you first speak to them in ME3 and can't play it out the way you want. However, military officers are different and in a situation like this, they wouldn't mope and sulk, they would do their jobs and begin constituting a plan of action. Eh...it just left a bad taste in my mouth, compounded by all the issues I had with the intro in general.

[Fireblader70]

phimseto wrote...

Rickin10 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...


 The only thing I disliked about the Defence Committee scene was the lines Shepard delivered.

 And this is the essence of the problem.

Haha...a succinct summarization of the past 85 pages! One of the critical speeches of the entire series for what it represents, and you have very little input into it. Though for me its worse because the way the top brass is written is so awful - as if they were civilians on the street instead of career officers and leaders of men.

That was the idea, though - it's supposed to show that, in times of great distress, we are all just human. Brings the whole 'we are one' concept into the foreground (or, at least, that's what it was aiming for in my opinion). When the final battle comes around, the galaxy will feel united against a greater threat, despite different ranks. That, and it puts Shepard in a place of higher standing.

As for little input from the player, I agree. And if it's true that auto-dialogue is based on reputation, then the different responses are already there - so why take away the wheel? That's a head-scratcher...

[abnocte]

@Fireblader70

I guess that the auto-dialogue is there to allow a more "cinematic" experience.

For example: the intro where Shepard walks next to Vega wouldn't work if they had to ask the player for input. We all know that you can take forever to select the option, meaning that either they stop at some point with Vega waiting for Shepard's comment ( when he shouldn't be aware that Shepard wanted to say something ) or creating an infinite loop where they keep walking and walking and walking until the player chooses the dialogue option.

So I can see why they did it in that intro, but I just don't understand why they settled for such a underwhelming intro...

[Catsith]

It's just Bioware trying to break away from that 'RPG' style of dialogue boxes and move into more fluid cinematic experiences like Uncharted. They tried to streamline it with Dragon Age series, and they've further streamlined it here with Mass Effect. Lair of the Shadow Broker, DA2 and the DA2 DLC should've been the first warning signs.

I'm convinced that Bioware's next IP will be action-adventure.

[Alex_SM]

abnocte wrote...

@Fireblader70

I guess that the auto-dialogue is there to allow a more "cinematic" experience.

For example: the intro where Shepard walks next to Vega wouldn't work if they had to ask the player for input. We all know that you can take forever to select the option, meaning that either they stop at some point with Vega waiting for Shepard's comment ( when he shouldn't be aware that Shepard wanted to say something ) or creating an infinite loop where they keep walking and walking and walking until the player chooses the dialogue option.

That's easily fixed with timed pickups. 

[Fireblader70]

abnocte wrote...

@Fireblader70

I guess that the auto-dialogue is there to allow a more "cinematic" experience.

For example: the intro where Shepard walks next to Vega wouldn't work if they had to ask the player for input. We all know that you can take forever to select the option, meaning that either they stop at some point with Vega waiting for Shepard's comment ( when he shouldn't be aware that Shepard wanted to say something ) or creating an infinite loop where they keep walking and walking and walking until the player chooses the dialogue option.

So I can see why they did it in that intro, but I just don't understand why they settled for such a underwhelming intro...

That's true, actually. It would seem a bit off for Shep to suddenly halt in the middle of a corridor, especially at a pretty urgent moment. If they cut out the wheel when he's not in motion, however, then something's up. But from what I've heard it should be (relatively) fine in that regard.

Intro feeling rushed doesn't bother me, not after that launch trailer and the positive reactions I've seen from people who have the game. It's only, what, a couple of minutes of the actual 20 hour story?

[insomniac13]

Has this been confirmed? Is there A LOT of Auto Dialog in the game?

I don't paticularly feel like going through 80 pages of comments...

Modifié par insomniac13, 05 mars 2012 - 01:10 .

[phimseto]

Catsith, you hit on something that has bugged me for a long time. It was always known that the ME franchise was going to go in different directions, be it MP, action adventure, or whatnot. All I wanted and trusted bioware to do was complete this trilogy and keep it true to what it was.

Instead, they've done just the opposite - MP shoehorned in, fundamental changes in the final game in an attempt to find a new audience(!!!), player control sacrificed in the name of cinematic flow, narrative short cuts...they couldn't be bothered to wait and that bothers me fundamentally, however ME3 turns out.

[phimseto]

Alex_SM wrote...

abnocte wrote...

@Fireblader70

I guess that the auto-dialogue is there to allow a more "cinematic" experience.

For example: the intro where Shepard walks next to Vega wouldn't work if they had to ask the player for input. We all know that you can take forever to select the option, meaning that either they stop at some point with Vega waiting for Shepard's comment ( when he shouldn't be aware that Shepard wanted to say something ) or creating an infinite loop where they keep walking and walking and walking until the player chooses the dialogue option.

That's easily fixed with timed pickups. 

This, and if they had just gone that route, all sides could have been happy, but they erred on the side of taking control away from the players.

[Rickin10]

phimseto wrote...

Catsith, you hit on something that has bugged me for a long time. It was always known that the ME franchise was going to go in different directions, be it MP, action adventure, or whatnot. All I wanted and trusted bioware to do was complete this trilogy and keep it true to what it was.

Instead, they've done just the opposite - MP shoehorned in, fundamental changes in the final game in an attempt to find a new audience(!!!), player control sacrificed in the name of cinematic flow, narrative short cuts...they couldn't be bothered to wait and that bothers me fundamentally, however ME3 turns out.

I agree with this completely.  If they wanted to go in another direction, they should have just knocked the series on the head after ME2 rather than take away what made Mass Effect Mass Effect.  They've always preached that it's all about choice and said this is your story.  

Modifié par Rickin10, 05 mars 2012 - 01:19 .

[Fireblader70]

There is still lots of choice. And it's still your story. Making a game that takes into account many things from the last two games, as well as forming it's own narrative, is a hell of a feat and I feel that Bioware has done a great job so far in that regard.

Some fans want a miracle game that bows to their every whim, but doing that would require a heck of a lot more than two/three years. Yes, such a game would be awesome, but EA's terrifying empire is on the line and they simply wouldn't allow that. They're so obviously battling with Activision that they need this game to be good, and they need it now.

But back on topic, not as many choices shouldn't = bad game. Yes, slightly disappointing, but come on - it's Mass Effect 3. Would you rather play Big Rigs? I didn't think so

[CHALET]

Well, we can add BioWare next to the list of developers EA have brutally murdered in cold blood. I wonder if Westwood and Mythic will be the ones showing them around the skeleton closet...

Fireblader70 wrote...

There is still lots of choice. And it's still your story. Making a game that takes into account many things from the last two games, as well as forming it's own narrative, is a hell of a feat and I feel that Bioware has done a great job so far in that regard.

Some fans want a miracle game that bows to their every whim, but doing that would require a heck of a lot more than two/three years. Yes, such a game would be awesome, but EA's terrifying empire is on the line and they simply wouldn't allow that. They're so obviously battling with Activision that they need this game to be good, and they need it now.

But back on topic, not as many choices shouldn't = bad game. Yes, slightly disappointing, but come on - it's Mass Effect 3. Would you rather play Big Rigs? I didn't think so [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

 

Ever heard the term "One step forward, two steps back"? They want to have auto-dialogue in? That's fine so long as they do that in Action Mode (you know the whole mode designed for shooter fans who don't care about choices) and leave the RPG experience (IE: Mass Effect as we know and love) as it's described and that way they get to cater to the casual shooter crowd EA care so much about AND don't ****** off their existing, loyal, but quickly turning cynical fanbase. Yes, there is choice but that choice has been watered down. I don't find a rotten piece of fruit in my groceries and eat it anyway "because it's still an apple".

Modifié par CHALET, 05 mars 2012 - 01:40 .

[Catsith]

phimseto wrote...
Catsith, you hit on something that has bugged me for a long time. It was always known that the ME franchise was going to go in different directions, be it MP, action adventure, or whatnot. All I wanted and trusted bioware to do was complete this trilogy and keep it true to what it was.

I think it's obvious here that if the franchise had been super successful commercial wise, then the formula would not have needed to be changed so drastically each time. Mass Effect series, while critically acclaimed, had not yet proved itself like an Uncharted or an Elder Scrolls in terms of sales. Those formulas don't need to be changed because they sell many millions, and Mass Effect does not, so they have to find ways to cut it down and attract new fans.

They aren't doing all of this just to mess around. They have a responsibility to make as much money as possible for EA, and ME2 only sold 1.6 million copies after 4 months on the market. EA was *not* happy with that. So they step in and fund a new studio for Multiplayer which should theoretically imrpove the chances of ME3 being a blockbuster, they throw in Kinect because the market potential is huge, they do day one DLC because "people will buy it anyway", and the fill the marketing trailers with as many explosions as possible to attract the dudebros, because they eat it up. It's sad, but that's just how things have gone with the franchise.

[jmood88]

Catsith wrote...

phimseto wrote...
Catsith, you hit on something that has bugged me for a long time. It was always known that the ME franchise was going to go in different directions, be it MP, action adventure, or whatnot. All I wanted and trusted bioware to do was complete this trilogy and keep it true to what it was.

I think it's obvious here that if the franchise had been super successful commercial wise, then the formula would not have needed to be changed so drastically each time. Mass Effect series, while critically acclaimed, had not yet proved itself like an Uncharted or an Elder Scrolls in terms of sales. Those formulas don't need to be changed because they sell many millions, and Mass Effect does not, so they have to find ways to cut it down and attract new fans.

They aren't doing all of this just to mess around. They have a responsibility to make as much money as possible for EA, and ME2 only sold 1.6 million copies after 4 months on the market. EA was *not* happy with that. So they step in and fund a new studio for Multiplayer which should theoretically imrpove the chances of ME3 being a blockbuster, they throw in Kinect because the market potential is huge, they do day one DLC because "people will buy it anyway", and the fill the marketing trailers with as many explosions as possible to attract the dudebros, because they eat it up. It's sad, but that's just how things have gone with the franchise.

You have a good point about sales but you go on to ruin it with the "dudebro explosions" part. They've done that ever since the first trailer for the game, it's not something new nor is it something that only came around because they let EA buy them. You won't see a single game that isn't a small downloadable title not have combat be a major part of the trailers. This series has always been about making an action-RPG with the action part being just as good as the any third person shooter and it's really annoying to see people change what actually happened in Mass Effect 1's development and marketing just so that they can say that the point that EA bought them is where Bioware went downhill.

Modifié par jmood88, 05 mars 2012 - 02:17 .

[jmood88]

Rickin10 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

It's also very telling that Bioware hasn't commented in this thread after 80+ pages. Not even vague statements like "Play the game. You'll be pleasantly surprised." Not a good sign...

Standard procedure, really. Dismiss, redirect, lie-through-their-teeth.

Then when people start calling them out on all of the above, go into silent running mode.

Yep.  If you own the ps3 copy of ME2 and see how that royally f****d that up then just abandoned the ps3 owners to their broken game, this is indeed standard behaviour.

1. I'm pretty sure most of the team is on vacation and would prefer to not hang around this place.
2. It's funny that now you want someone to say something but when they do, people accuse them of lying or spinning things.

[Goddy10]

CHALET wrote...

Well, we can add BioWare next to the list of developers EA have brutally murdered in cold blood. I wonder if Westwood and Mythic will be the ones showing them around the skeleton closet...

Fireblader70 wrote...

There is still lots of choice. And it's still your story. Making a game that takes into account many things from the last two games, as well as forming it's own narrative, is a hell of a feat and I feel that Bioware has done a great job so far in that regard.

Some fans want a miracle game that bows to their every whim, but doing that would require a heck of a lot more than two/three years. Yes, such a game would be awesome, but EA's terrifying empire is on the line and they simply wouldn't allow that. They're so obviously battling with Activision that they need this game to be good, and they need it now.

But back on topic, not as many choices shouldn't = bad game. Yes, slightly disappointing, but come on - it's Mass Effect 3. Would you rather play Big Rigs? I didn't think so [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

 

Ever heard the term "One step forward, two steps back"? They want to have auto-dialogue in? That's fine so long as they do that in Action Mode (you know the whole mode designed for shooter fans who don't care about choices) and leave the RPG experience (IE: Mass Effect as we know and love) as it's described and that way they get to cater to the casual shooter crowd EA care so much about AND don't ****** off their existing, loyal, but quickly turning cynical fanbase. Yes, there is choice but that choice has been watered down. I don't find a rotten piece of fruit in my groceries and eat it anyway "because it's still an apple".

And that's fundamentally what I can't understand; streamlining (cutting) player choice back almost makes RPG and Story mode redundant. They may aswell have made only one mode and that's Action.

[XwebraiderX]

Catsith wrote...

phimseto wrote...
Catsith, you hit on something that has bugged me for a long time. It was always known that the ME franchise was going to go in different directions, be it MP, action adventure, or whatnot. All I wanted and trusted bioware to do was complete this trilogy and keep it true to what it was.

I think it's obvious here that if the franchise had been super successful commercial wise, then the formula would not have needed to be changed so drastically each time. Mass Effect series, while critically acclaimed, had not yet proved itself like an Uncharted or an Elder Scrolls in terms of sales. Those formulas don't need to be changed because they sell many millions, and Mass Effect does not, so they have to find ways to cut it down and attract new fans.

They aren't doing all of this just to mess around. They have a responsibility to make as much money as possible for EA, and ME2 only sold 1.6 million copies after 4 months on the market. EA was *not* happy with that. So they step in and fund a new studio for Multiplayer which should theoretically imrpove the chances of ME3 being a blockbuster, they throw in Kinect because the market potential is huge, they do day one DLC because "people will buy it anyway", and the fill the marketing trailers with as many explosions as possible to attract the dudebros, because they eat it up. It's sad, but that's just how things have gone with the franchise.

This. And this is how things have gone with the whole gaming industry. Their goal is - and has to be - making as much money as humanly possible. We got lucky ME 2 was still a great game after all. ME 3 will be decent but its clearly sliding into the "Gears of Call of Duty Field" direction. Its like with great music that hasnt gotten attention. As soon as people catch up, it gets big and watered down so everyone finds something he likes about it. Sick sad little world.

[brunomalta]

Wait...i won´t be able to speak with my squad aboard the Normandy anymore? Really?

[Goddy10]

brunomalta wrote...

Wait...i won´t be able to speak with my squad aboard the Normandy anymore? Really?

I don't know where you heard that from, but that is one of the last remaining sources of real, deep conversation in ME3 from what I hear.

[brunomalta]

Goddy10 wrote...

brunomalta wrote...

Wait...i won´t be able to speak with my squad aboard the Normandy anymore? Really?

I don't know where you heard that from, but that is one of the last remaining sources of real, deep conversation in ME3 from what I hear.

That´s a relief! With so much bad information running around, i tought this was axed too. So the game will be like ME 2....a lot of missions had barely to none dialogs.

Do you know if the Mission Hubs on planets will be like on Normandy or Auto-Dialog?

[XwebraiderX]

Goddy10 wrote...

brunomalta wrote...

Wait...i won´t be able to speak with my squad aboard the Normandy anymore? Really?

I don't know where you heard that from, but that is one of the last remaining sources of real, deep conversation in ME3 from what I hear.

I thought on the normandy everything is auto-dialogue?

Modifié par XwebraiderX, 05 mars 2012 - 02:33 .

[phimseto]

Catsith wrote...

phimseto wrote...
Catsith, you hit on something that has bugged me for a long time. It was always known that the ME franchise was going to go in different directions, be it MP, action adventure, or whatnot. All I wanted and trusted bioware to do was complete this trilogy and keep it true to what it was.

I think it's obvious here that if the franchise had been super successful commercial wise, then the formula would not have needed to be changed so drastically each time. Mass Effect series, while critically acclaimed, had not yet proved itself like an Uncharted or an Elder Scrolls in terms of sales. Those formulas don't need to be changed because they sell many millions, and Mass Effect does not, so they have to find ways to cut it down and attract new fans.

They aren't doing all of this just to mess around. They have a responsibility to make as much money as possible for EA, and ME2 only sold 1.6 million copies after 4 months on the market. EA was *not* happy with that. So they step in and fund a new studio for Multiplayer which should theoretically imrpove the chances of ME3 being a blockbuster, they throw in Kinect because the market potential is huge, they do day one DLC because "people will buy it anyway", and the fill the marketing trailers with as many explosions as possible to attract the dudebros, because they eat it up. It's sad, but that's just how things have gone with the franchise.

Catsith, that's some cold, hard truth right there, though of course that reminds me of the PR spin we got when EA acquired Bioware - that this would empower Bioware to make the games they want on a big-time stage.  Guess not.  Now we kind of feel like Syndicate and XCOM fans feel when they see, "Your favorite game is coming back!  Now as a FPS!  Aren't you happy?"  

The ME3 changes may not seem as dramatic, but taking away that control from the player in favor of a generic narrative and character interpretation is a radical step.  My understanding is that ME2 was successful, but EA wanted it to be *more* successful.  That may sound obvious, but then that kind of fevered illogic is what led to the Dragon Age II debacle and what may end up defining ME3 as well.  

Uncharted is successful because it is is a diffierent kind of game in a very popular, easy to access genre.  Skyrim is successful, but it has ten+ years as a franchise on Mass Effect.  If anything, Skyrim and Oblivion should have pointed the way toward embracing the roleplaying side, not moving away from it.  

We all wanted Mass Effect 3, and while I will have to wait until I've played through the entirety of the game to render final judgment, the early returns do not look promising.  Mass Effect was always pitched to be "your story" and with each conversation where I have to watch my character act and behave in ways I wouldn't choose for him to do, I feel further removed from the franchise than I have.  If that's the direction Bioware and EA want to go, well...I wish them luck.  They should have waited until after Mass Effect 3, and let those of us who invested in the franchise sing its praises instead of leaving us wondering like we've been left in the dust as they go chasing the COD crowd.   

[android654]

After seeing the spoiler thread, it's clear why there is auto dialogue. Trust me, it's not simply to give Mass Effect an Uncharted feel, but to inject really bad writing. People will be upset.

[jmood88]

android654 wrote...

After seeing the spoiler thread, it's clear why there is auto dialogue. Trust me, it's not simply to give Mass Effect an Uncharted feel, but to inject really bad writing. People will be upset.

lol you keep posting the same things over and over again.