99 réponses à ce sujet

[FaeQueenCory]

Good and evil are just idiotic concepts people cling to to stigmatize others and build themselves up.
However... Nothing good comes from using Blood Magic...
Even using it to fight Blood Magic... Still just kind of wrecks everything...

And! Before anyone says that Blood Magic doesn't ruin everything... The WHOLE negative state of the world of TheDAS is the result of Blood Magic... And the biggest threat to TheDAS is a direct result of it: the Blights.
Blood Magic is neither good or evil... Those are just words... Puffs of air... They weigh less and mean nothing. But it did ruin the world.

[Taleera]

SirXblade wrote...
So because some forms of blood magic can open the Veil, mind control, summon demons, means that all forms of blood magic are evil (again Phylacteries anyone?)

All forms of blood magic are capable of opening the veil and thus allowing a demon to enter the mortal plane. For the rest, see the "motivations" bit in the section following the next. Some things you just don't need to learn.

SirXblade wrote... 
How about when the Chantry sacrificing people to create  Sentinels? or when Dwarves create Golems? are they not sinister as well? How about taking mages away from their families because they have the potential to harm someone, is that not vile?

Dwarven golem creation is a terrifying thing, but as long as they use only volunteers, I don't think this qualifies as vile. Mages are taken away for the greater good and because they pose a known threat to everyone around them if not properly trained, so again, no.

Can you elaborate on this supposed "Sentinel creation", however? I have never heard of any such thing, and frankly, it sounds quite different from the usual depictions of the Chantry. Unless this is, again, involving volunteers, I guess. Still, sounds weird!

SirXblade wrote... 
I seperated the terms Blood mage and Maelifcar from each other because the reality is that anything can become evil. take what Zevran says if you decide to kill the circle 
It really depends on how its applied.

What exactly are you referring to? From what I see, Zevran is talking about the player killing everyone, not just the blood mages. Different topic - though the conversations in that scene and the input from all the party members are pretty interesting either way.

Also, what motivations could someone have for researching blood magic, given its risks? From what it sounds like, blood magic is only good for a caster wishing for more power. I could understand if this is being done in a moment of pressing need where one's own life is at stake (though even then it could be a condemnable act), but given how this stuff works it requires preparation and much study. And even if you'd argue with pure preparation, it'd be akin to planting a bomb "just to be safe" and then claiming you never had the intention to detonate it.

Of course, another reason could be pure curiosity, and the exceptional education awarded to Chantry-sponsored mages likely does its share to kindle the sparks of creativity - yet some things just seem like they should never be learned as the world would be better off without them.

Also keep in mind that, if what DarkAmaranth1966 is true (I don't recall it personally, but then again I didn't have Anders in my party in DA2 - him killing that mage girl just for surrendering to the templars pretty much ruined all chances of taking him along again), a practicing blood mage would have consorted with a demon of the Fade.

SirXblade wrote...  
Also I find it somewhat Ironic that you are judging my mindset for simply stating blood magic is really only evil if its used for evil purposes.  Would you condemn someone for resorting to blood magic if it was used in a way in which no one but the caster was harmed?

Not sure on this one. I suppose it'd depend on the situation - that the caster knows it is reason for suspicion alone.

SirXblade wrote...   
I could make an arguement about how Entropy itself is evil because how it deals with death and how dangerous it is, and yet the Chantry and Circle accepts it. How about Primal as well? Would shooting lightning bolts at anyone be considered evil if used on someone that did not deserve it? What about  Spirit magic where I can imprison anyone in a Crushing Prison and then shattering them with a Cone of Cold? wouldnt that be abusive as well?

The difference in all of this is the so-called "sanctity of the mind". Killing someone generally isn't seen as evil as turning them into brainless puppets, not to mention that the latter cannot be detected so easily. I suppose this is also connected to the idea that the body is just a temporal shell, but the soul being eternal and destined to some day be called to the Maker - so affecting someone's mind might be regarded as tainting this soul and barring it from ascension.

Superstition, of course (unless we assume that all the religious hocus pocus might actually be real), but since we are merely debating the perspective of the people in Thedas, it should serve as a good enough justification.

But in closing, I daresay that people might also see a difference in how you kill someone with "sanctioned" magic. Just because you have the ability to burn someone to death doesn't mean you cannot simply end his life quickly, after all. Doesn't mean that the entire school needs to be barred from research, for these spells have far more applications than just killing people...

SirXblade wrote...    
How about Templar abilities in which I can not only drain mana, but essentially tranquilize anyone because I consider them inferior!

I'll have you know that the Rite of Tranquility actually isn't a templar ability but a "technical" ritual involving the application of a lyrium-infused glyph. The Rite is furthermore not only performed but also ordered by a Circle's Senior Enchanters, not the templars, and part of a Circle's self-governance. It can also be undertaken voluntarily, however, and many young apprentice weak of will do prefer this option to the Harrowing - the only trial mandatory as per Chantry law.

SirXblade wrote...
Oh and before you got in a tangent about how "I Deviate the Terms" or try to paint me as the "I Think Blood Magic is totally awesome and that anyone else is an idiot if they think otherwise" [...]

Mhm. In retrospect I will admit I could have worded it better and apologize for the tone. It wasn't my intention to do so (in fact, my only intention was to clarify that your remark was personal opinion and not a false understanding of background).
I think that these threads and the experience of argueing alone against a dozen mage-fans, some of whom quite vocal and at least as thick-headed as I am, may have led me to develop a certain bias. I'll try to control it better in the future.

[TEWR]

As for learning from a book - Anders specifically says that the only way to use blood magic is to look a demon in they eye and accept a deal. Yes you can learn how to do it, and the spells form books but, to actually do it you must rely on a spirit of the fade. Now I will give that ALL fade spirits probably know blood magic but, only demons will deal to allow a mortal to use it, hence Justice and Faith do not use it.

He also says that you can just cut yourself and stumble upon the powers. We have conflicting sources on the origins of blood magic. Some say demons, some say the Old Gods, some say Arlathan itself.

I believe the latter two and don't even consider the former one to be the origins of blood magic. Blood magic is tied to the physical realm and not the Fade. The only reason why Demons know how to teach blood magic is because the arcane arts are eternal in the Fade, as proven by Torpor remarking upon the rarity of seeing two forgotten magicks in one day.

And I find it highly likely that the Chantry rounded up every blood magic tome they could find and tossed them into a fire. Those that did survive are hard to find, but Jowan did learn blood magic from a book that was within the Circle.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 mars 2012 - 05:32 .

[SirXblade]

[quote pyramid removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 05 mars 2012 - 07:53 .

[Taleera]

SirXblade wrote...
True, but again there are other forms of Blood magic besides mind control/summoning demons, again Phylacteries and the Joining are technically blood magic

Hmm, not sure on the first. The phylacteries incorporate the usage blood of casters as a permanent "link" to their location, but is it really the blood that powers this spell, or is it rather that the spell works independently and only uses the blood as a key - similar to how in real life folklore some witches would use someone's hair or fingernails?
Even so, there is in-setting criticism regarding this as well. Knight-Captain Evangeline in "Asunder" for example doesn't like it as she thinks it is "too close to blood magic".

If the phylacteries are actually blood magic, this might ironically explain how a Circle may possess knowledge about it in the first place - after all, the templars are no mages, so the production of phylacteries could necessitate a certain minimum in training amongst a select few Senior Enchanters or even just the First Enchanter, including the writing of books on the subject ... that might later serve as a dangerous starting point for mages wishing to venture beyond this in their quest for knowledge.
Unless, of course, the phylacteries are produced in some sort of technological process not requiring a person with actual magical ability. But even then this would probably a task entrusted to the Tranquil, and a need for training would still be there.

Just a very twisted thought, of course. The Chantry isn't above bending the rules if it is considered to be "for the greater good" - the treatment of mages is proof enough for this, for regardless of what a number of mage-fans on the forums seem to believe, the Chantry isn't some evil fascist regime headed by a Bond-like supervillain, but a religious organization whose members would seem to generally believe in caring for the people, as this is what the Chant of Light teaches and what we see many of them do throughout the games and novels.

The Grey Wardens are even more extreme about this, though. It may well be that the Joining Ritual is actual blood magic, but certainly does it have a corrupting effect on any participant. Even if you don't die, it is just a matter of time until you turn into a Blight-creature yourself and begin eating children for breakfast - this is why the Calling was invented, to ensure that even the taughest Wardens get killed before this occurs. And then we have that magical "prison" in Legacy ...
The P&P RPG notes that the Grey Wardens do not have any reservations about blood magic, as they believe that any weapon that can be wielded against the Darkspawn needs to be used. Still, I'm sure you can see the dangers in this philosophy. Then again, it is at least understandable, given the possible outcome of the Wardens failing in their mission...

By the way, just stumbled over this apparently cut scene from DA:O - interesting!

SirXblade wrote...
Except they can all lead to abuse, the problem isnt that Blood magic is evil because its evil, but rather because it can and has been abused. This doesnt mean that anyone that is a blood mage = evil, but rather that it can be abused. Thats why i used the Golem/Sentinel/Chantry comparison. because anything that requires a sacrifice can be abused.

In that case one could still argue that there is a massive disparity in both historical occurrence as well as what the worst case scenarios actually look like. I do believe that something like the Tevinter Imperium is both more likely to occur (were mages to be given absolute free hand) as well as generally more horrible to the populace than what happened under the reign of the likes of Meredith or Valtor (given the ratio of affected victims to everyone else).

As I said in my first post - I don't believe that blood magic is evil per se, it's "just" too dangerous to use, and the vast majority of its practicioners do seem to be evil people, so .. yeah.

SirXblade wrote...
All I know is the the Survival screen depicts them as humans, and judging by the fact they act like Golems, its not hard to see the comparison of the two.

What "Sentinels" are you referring to, exactly? These suits of armour? In that case this is pure speculation, as we know next to nothing about what makes them walk. I'd argue they are mere decoration animated by a magical spell - given that there is apparantly a lightning emanating from somewhere to activate them, suggesting that they are not "powered up" all the time. A notable difference to the "permanent" golem soldiers. More similar to "Animate Dead", perhaps, just not using a corpse but a suit of armour? Interesting subject, though, I'll give you that.

What is a "survival screen", though?

SirXblade wrote...
My point was that anything can be used as a weapon, Zevran point was, why should he be spared for trying to kill the warden, when the mages havent done anything to him yet even though they may be blood mages.

Ah, but that's an entirely different situation. For the record, I let the Circle live as well, and note that Knight-Commander Greagoir is quite open to that prospect as well - in opposition to Cullen.

SirXblade wrote...
Well, again Demons are not the only source of blood magic, I mean Irving had a tome of blood magic on his desk and the Warden can easily learn blood magic in Awakening from a book. If that doesnt say anything about  blood magic in general,  then I'm at a loss.

Well, he did already state the basics can be learned from books, but to actually do it requires assistance from a Fade demon.

SirXblade wrote...
I could have worded this better I appoligise, I really meant that if that supposed mage were to use blood magic in a way that doesnt require the lifeforce of someone else, or to use it to summon demons or control the minds of an innocent, and were to use it say against the darkspawn (like trying to purify the taint, or controlling the darkspawn to attack another darkspawn, augementing the powers of the taint to combat the darkspawn) would you condemn them as monsters?

In these cases, no. But walking timebombs that would be better off sticking to normal magic. This is very much a matter of perception, though - one's own assessment of "risk versus reward".

SirXblade wrote...
Okay, you got me on that one, I appoligise, I kind of glanced at the rite of tranquility. But still it can be used abusively. I mean why should I worry about doing what I think is right, if I can tranquilize mages left and right just so I can remove their feelings and emotions.

Because there seem to be safeguards in place to prevent just this, as even the Chantry feels for the mages as "children of the Maker", too. In DA2, applying the Rite of Tranquility to every mage in Kirkwall was proposed by one of the templars - and refused by Meredith herself. Quite remarkable, given how often she is criticized for being hard on mages. The Divine slammed down this proposal as well, suggesting that it'd require sanctioning from the highest tiers of Chantry hierarchy. Even in Kirkwall there's only so much how one can deviate from standard protocols, I guess, unless one were willing to incur the wrath of clergy superiors ... not to mention the Seekers, whose job it is to watch out for this very kind of infraction.

Yes, this "solution" would be the safest thing to ensure that no mages turn against the people, but it is regarded as too extreme not only by the players but Chantry and templar officials in the setting as well. This is what I keep saying: the Circle of Magi isn't about relentless suppression - it already is a compromise between safety and freedom.

Of course, the fact that mages are a very valuable asset in Thedas' defense against the Blights helps convincing Chantry members that they should be kept around, too.

And I have to redact my previous explanation on the Rite of Tranquility slightly - the templars are able to influence the nomination process, in addition to the senior enchanters. In the section on Tranquility I've been reading before typing that post, only the enchanters were named, but in the chapter dealing with the Templar Order it says that they can submit individuals for the Rite as well.
Generally, it seems as if the senior enchanters pick out the ones who are deemed to be too weak of will to withstand daemonic corruption, whereas the templaras would nominate those regarded as too dangerous due to their mindset/personality.

Also, no worries, this description would seem to be little known to people, given that it doesn't show up in the computer games but only the books of the pen&paper RPG, which I imagine far fewer people have read.
One might even dispute their "canonicity" as they stem from an outside source, but given the approval process as well as the writers' access to a cache of unreleased documentation on the setting I see no reason to doubt it just yet.

SirXblade wrote...
So, Truce? :happy:<3

Of course.

SirXblade wrote...
(I swear if these qoute block thing doesnt work, I'm gonna start frying up some nugs)

*Leliana scream in the background*

Modifié par Taleera, 05 mars 2012 - 03:16 .

[TheJediSaint]

A life-force sucking form of magic, which when used screams "possess me" to every demon in the fade? Totally not evil!

[SirXblade]

[quote]Taleera wrote...
Hmm, not sure on the first. The phylacteries incorporate the usage blood of casters as a permanent "link" to their location, but is it really the blood that powers this spell, or is it rather that the spell works independently and only uses the blood as a key - similar to how in real life folklore some witches would use someone's hair or fingernails?
Even so, there is in-setting criticism regarding this as well. Knight-Captain Evangeline in "Asunder" for example doesn't like it as she thinks it is "too close to blood magic".

If the phylacteries are actually blood magic, this might ironically explain how a Circle may possess knowledge about it in the first place - after all, the templars are no mages, so the production of phylacteries could necessitate a certain minimum in training amongst a select few Senior Enchanters or even just the First Enchanter, including the writing of books on the subject ... that might later serve as a dangerous starting point for mages wishing to venture beyond this in their quest for knowledge.[/quote]

If that were the case then its hard for me to see the Chantry's justification of condemning blood magic and yet using it at the same time.

[quote]Taleera wrote...
Unless, of course, the phylacteries are produced in some sort of technological process not requiring a person with actual magical ability. But even then this would probably a task entrusted to the Tranquil, and a need for training would still be there.

Just a very twisted thought, of course. The Chantry isn't above bending the rules if it is considered to be "for the greater good" - the treatment of mages is proof enough for this, for regardless of what a number of mage-fans on the forums seem to believe, the Chantry isn't some evil fascist regime headed by a Bond-like supervillain, but a religious organization whose members would seem to generally believe in caring for the people, as this is what the Chant of Light teaches and what we see many of them do throughout the games and novels. [/quote]

I can totally understand that the Templars are needed to combat power hungry insanse blood mages. I also respect Divine Justina V for not going down the path of being a tyrant and zealot as some templars and other Chantry folk have done, and so 
I dont despise the Chantry.

[quote]Taleera wrote...
The Grey Wardens are even more extreme about this, though. It may well be that the Joining Ritual is actual blood magic, but certainly does it have a corrupting effect on any participant. Even if you don't die, it is just a matter of time until you turn into a Blight-creature yourself and begin eating children for breakfast - this is why the Calling was invented, to ensure that even the taughest Wardens get killed before this occurs. And then we have that magical "prison" in Legacy ...
The P&P RPG notes that the Grey Wardens do not have any reservations about blood magic, as they believe that any weapon that can be wielded against the Darkspawn needs to be used. Still, I'm sure you can see the dangers in this philosophy. Then again, it is at least understandable, given the possible outcome of the Wardens failing in their mission...
[/quote] Its sad the the Joining is very dangerous and that only a select few even get to survive, but  its understandable that they make this kind of sacrifice.
I really dont see their philosphy that diffrent from the Chantry or any other organization that demands a sacrifice, when it comes to the "Greater Good" I mean it has its risks, but there are benifets that come along with being a Grey Warden.

[quote]Taleera wrote...
By the way, just stumbled over this apparently cut scene from DA:O - interesting! [/quote]

I appreciate that Gregior is trying to be fair and understandable to the Warden, I just dont think trying to arrest or punish the Warden for using blood magic is a good idea. I mean if they understood the sacrifice they make to slay the Archdemon and essentially have both its and their soul destroyed, I think exceptions can be made.


[quote]Taleera wrote...
In that case one could still argue that there is a massive disparity in both historical occurrence as well as what the worst case scenarios actually look like. I do believe that something like the Tevinter Imperium is both more likely to occur (were mages to be given absolute free hand) as well as generally more horrible to the populace than what happened under the reign of the likes of Meredith or Valtor (given the ratio of affected victims to everyone else).

As I said in my first post - I don't believe that blood magic is evil per se, it's "just" too dangerous to use, and the vast majority of its practicioners do seem to be evil people, so .. yeah.  [/quote] Oh I agree that most of the practitioners of blood magic it abuse it like there is no tommorow. 

[quote]Taleera wrote...
What "Sentinels" are you referring to, exactly? These suits of armour? In that case this is pure speculation, as we know next to nothing about what makes them walk. I'd argue they are mere decoration animated by a magical spell - given that there is apparantly a lightning emanating from somewhere to activate them, suggesting that they are not "powered up" all the time. A notable difference to the "permanent" golem soldiers. More similar to "Animate Dead", perhaps, just not using a corpse but a suit of armour? Interesting subject, though, I'll give you that.

What is a "survival screen", though? [/quote] 

The Survival screen is the little information when you scan the creature when your using your Surviavl ability. (I think its a PC only thing though)

[quote]Taleera wrote...
]Ah, but that's an entirely different situation. For the record, I let the Circle live as well, and note that Knight-Commander Greagoir is quite open to that prospect as well - in opposition to Cullen.[/quote] True you have a point.

[quote]Taleera wrote...
Well, he did already state the basics can be learned from books, but to actually do it requires assistance from a Fade demon. [/quote]

Hmm, well you got a point! but still this makes me dislike Irving even more because why on earth would he need those books in the first place. Sure condemn Jowan for practicing Blood Magic and trying to save his own neck, and yet have stockpiles of blood magic books on your freaken desk.

[quote]Taleera wrote...

In these cases, no. But walking timebombs that would be better off sticking to normal magic. This is very much a matter of perception, though - one's own assessment of "risk versus reward". [/quote]

hmm good point.


[quote]Taleera wrote...
Because there seem to be safeguards in place to prevent just this, as even the Chantry feels for the mages as "children of the Maker", too. In DA2, applying the Rite of Tranquility to every mage in Kirkwall was proposed by one of the templars - and refused by Meredith herself. Quite remarkable, given how often she is criticized for being hard on mages. The Divine slammed down this proposal as well, suggesting that it'd require sanctioning from the highest tiers of Chantry hierarchy. Even in Kirkwall there's only so much how one can deviate from standard protocols, I guess, unless one were willing to incur the wrath of clergy superiors ... not to mention the Seekers, whose job it is to watch out for this very kind of infraction.

Yes, this "solution" would be the safest thing to ensure that no mages turn against the people, but it is regarded as too extreme not only by the players but Chantry and templar officials in the setting as well. This is what I keep saying: the Circle of Magi isn't about relentless suppression - it already is a compromise between safety and freedom.

Of course, the fact that mages are a very valuable asset in Thedas' defense against the Blights helps convincing Chantry members that they should be kept around, too.

And I have to redact my previous explanation on the Rite of Tranquility slightly - the templars are able to influence the nomination process, in addition to the senior enchanters. In the section on Tranquility I've been reading before typing that post, only the enchanters were named, but in the chapter dealing with the Templar Order it says that they can submit individuals for the Rite as well.
Generally, it seems as if the senior enchanters pick out the ones who are deemed to be too weak of will to withstand daemonic corruption, whereas the templaras would nominate those regarded as too dangerous due to their mindset/personality.

Also, no worries, this description would seem to be little known to people, given that it doesn't show up in the computer games but only the books of the pen&paper RPG, which I imagine far fewer people have read.
One might even dispute their "canonicity" as they stem from an outside source, but given the approval process as well as the writers' access to a cache of unreleased documentation on the setting I see no reason to doubt it just yet. [/quote] (also I hope that they do find a way to use the Rite of Tranquility without servering the emotions of the Mage, I could support something like that :] ) I'm not gonna lie and say that most of the information of the Rite of Tranquility that I saw was from what happened to Jowan, maybe I'm biased, but it made me dislike Irving even more (although you can argue that he had to do it)
[quote]Taleera wrote...
Of course. [/quote]

[quote]Taleera wrote...
*Leliana scream in the background*
[/quote]

Hope it works this time

Modifié par SirXblade, 05 mars 2012 - 07:44 .

[FedericoV]

ChowMan wrote...

Hey guys,

What do you guys think? Is Blood Magic bad? I've played the games and there have been times where certain mages like Jowen, who would use it for good. You think they should all be looked upon as threats? Or do you believe with control, it can be accepted.  

We do not know for sure but Blood Magic seems tied to a lot of nasty scenes in the series with little to none positive to balance it. So, while not every blood mage needs to be a bad guy, I guess that when blood magic is in the picture things go more easily in the worst possible direction.

[Lynata]

SirXblade wrote...
Its sad the the Joining is very dangerous and that only a select few even get to survive, but  its understandable that they make this kind of sacrifice.
I really dont see their philosphy that diffrent from the Chantry or any other organization that demands a sacrifice, when it comes to the "Greater Good" I mean it has its risks, but there are benifets that come along with being a Grey Warden.

I think it's a question of just when and how it is applied. If something like the prison in "Legacy" can only be built using blood magic? Well, I guess the Wardens would have little choice in that case. But when you have a blood mage Warden using his spells to crush enemies that may well have been killed by normal magic too, just with more effort and potential deaths? This is when we get into the grey area, I think.

I mean, if blood magic can truly weaken the Veil, the last thing you want to do is accidentally tearing it open for some powerful demon boss to slip through just because you wanted to roast a zombie. Its sheer power is one of the many lures of this kind of magic, though (just like with the Dark Side of the Force ), and I'm not sure even Wardens are beyond its temptation or, indeed, daemonic corruption (see Warden Janeka in the DLC).

SirXblade wrote...
I appreciate that Gregior is trying to be fair and understandable to the Warden, I just dont think trying to arrest or punish the Warden for using blood magic is a good idea. I mean if they understood the sacrifice they make to slay the Archdemon and essentially have both its and their soul destroyed, I think exceptions can be made.

Hmm, I don't think anyone but the Wardens actually knows this bit, but everybody just witnessed the horrors that blood magic can procure. What I found most surprising is that the issue was pressed by Wynne, though.

SirXblade wrote...
The Survival screen is the little information when you scan the creature when your using your Surviavl ability. (I think its a PC only thing though)

Ohh, I see! I'd chalk that down to engine simplification, or perhaps even being completely unintentional - after all, it's the same with the suits of armour in Redcliffe Castle ... unless we want to assume that the good Arl Eamon is turning people into golems as well.
In addition to this, golems are actually not classed as humanoid targets but ... well, golems.

"While technically golem-like constructs, the suits of armor will still leak blood when killed, due to the game counting them as humans.
This same bug also gives them normal reaction to nature damage, instead of an immunity like Golems."

SirXblade wrote...
Hmm, well you got a point! but still this makes me dislike Irving even more because why on earth would he need those books in the first place. Sure condemn Jowan for practicing Blood Magic and trying to save his own neck, and yet have stockpiles of blood magic books on your freaken desk.

Those books were on his own desk? That's curious. Were they about teaching blood magic or just an analysis?
I also wonder how much of this can be accredited to "it's a game" or rather "some designer had to put this somewhere" ... even though this sounds like a cop-out excuse.

Or BioWare has/had some creepy plot going on about Irving having been a bad guy in disguise all along, but this twist would seem strange given his past presentations.

SirXblade wrote...
Hope it works this time

Looks like. Congrats!

PS: back on my old account now. sheesh, I wish there were an option to merge them. :|

Modifié par Lynata, 05 mars 2012 - 08:59 .

[Ivers0803]

A good analogy for blood magic is nuclear power, While there is potential for it do do a lot of good, it has potential wreak havoc if placed in the wrong hands, It isnt inherently evil but can be easily manipulated to do evil.
P.S I always thought those blood magic books where the ones Jowan had used to learn it, I remeber it being said the circle used tests to root out blood mages,

[Abispa]

It should be noted that demons get excited by blood in general (note the reaction of the demons in Warden's Keep in DA:O), and areas of great bloodshed and battles tend to have weak barriers to the Fade. Plus, there are warriors who use a form of blood magic to fuel their battle prowess and they aren't mages. And the Anvil of the Void was described as being similar to blood magic in DA:O as well.

If the spilling of "normal" blood can weaken the Fade, excite demons, and produce super powered warriors, I imagine the spilling of mage blood only heightens the effect.

[Darth Death]

By the maker, magic is a villainous entity that needs to be purge from thedas! Brothers! Sisters! Join me in prayer so that we may cast down these... Abominations! Sever all ties! Withhold no conscience! Death to those who oppose us! The despicable containers of enlightenment possessing such wicked gifts! Maker spit on you & your wretched kind! May you always woe resulting your condemnation & my happiness.

- Dark Lord of the Sith

[FrightBlight]

I see it of something along the lines guns.

In the right hands, it can be a useful tool.

But put in the wrong hands, or someone inexperienced, and they'll most likely hurt themselves or other people.

You just have to have the wisdom to use it as needed, not when something could be achieved another way.




Its like the sect of maleficar hiding out in denerim. They don't offer any diplomatic or peaceful options, they just full on try to kill you.

[Uccio]

Blood magic is good, my Hawke and Warden can wouch for it.

[atheelogos]

Depends on why your using it and who your using it on. Its not intrinsically evil.

[MKDAWUSS]

It needs to be portrayed a bit differently than it has been so far, IMO.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Like any THING it is neither good nor evil. The person using it may be one or the other but the THING, be it blood magic, a gun, a knife, a bow, etc... is never good or evil.

[Indoctrination]

There's really no sound argument for "it's a grey issue. It depends on how you use it!" Really? Then why does tragedy seem to ALWAYS follow anyone who uses it in the plot of both games, LOL? A 100% disaster rate isn't exactly "grey," friends. Blood magic is legitimately malevolent going by game-canon.

[Wulfram]

Hawke and Warden can use it with no apparent negative consequences.

Merrill's problems come from other peoples reactions to her blood magic, not from blood magic itself.

[Lynata]

Wulfram wrote...
Hawke and Warden can use it with no apparent negative consequences.

I guess that's simply the Hero Bonus - the world tends to work differently for the players, at least in this sort of games. Slain NPCs also don't tend to stand up again after combat has been resolved, for example.

Interestingly, the official Pen&Paper RPG does include rules that can have the player characters turn into Abominations when botching their willpower rolls. The reason this wasn't included in the PC games should be obvious - because the majority of gamers would seriously dislike such mechanics. It's the same reason why lyrium addiction, which was planned to be in DA:O, was taken out again.

But it's not even just that people can be possessed by demons - it's also that blood magic weakens the Veil much stronger than normal magic does. Any use of blood magic gives demons a bonus to their attempts of crossing over into the real world, so even if possession itself were not a threat (which it is), casting such spells is akin to preferring CFC hair sprays without thinking about the ozone layer.

On that note, however, it would have been interesting if there were more consequences for the use of blood magic in the computer games themselves. Not necessarily possession* - but there could have been side quests where Hawke or the Warden would have accidentally freed a demon. The way it stands, Hawke isn't even criticized by the templars for practicing blood magic in plain view.

(*: obviously, possession isn't always the result - there will be scores of mages who might have the willpower to resist it - yet what about the temptation that comes with wielding such powers? and does the ability of a few really matter? not all people who are smoking die from cancer, yet we know the risk is there)

Wulfram wrote... 
Merrill's problems come from other peoples reactions to her blood magic, not from blood magic itself.

Well, her clan's Keeper - who would have much more experience and a much stronger knowledge of Dalish magic than young and naive Merrill - seems to think otherwise.

Modifié par Lynata, 17 mars 2012 - 05:55 .

[BrookerT]

Merril explains it best.
Its a tool like a hammer, its the person who wants to use it that dictates its purpose.
Its like the whole guns don't kill people, people kill people thing.

[LegendaryBlade]

"All powerful mage they said, goddamn fade demon I said" - Zaeed Massani

In all seriousness though, Blood Magic is a terrible thing to resort to. The weak minded (which are also the people most likely to experiment with it) are likely to become abominations. We see a handful of people capable of handling at most, infact I can really only think of one: Your friend from the Mage origin in DA:O. When we see blood Mages in DA2 they're often surrounded by abominations and if you side with the Templars at the end you see that the circle is filled with Abominations and Bloodmages.

[Ellestor]

To this day, I still don't really understand blood magic. All of the explanations have continually left me...

[Dabrikishaw]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Blood magic is like anything else - a tool. Is Elemental magic bad? You can kill a child with a bolt of electricity. That doesn't mean it's 'bad.'

Any type of magic is only a tool, the person wielding it and why is the only thing that can be good or bad.

This is my thought exactly.

Modifié par Dabrikishaw, 15 mai 2012 - 07:38 .