99 réponses à ce sujet

[Cantina]

wsandista wrote...

So I guess greatswords are evil because you can cleave someones head in two with one? Blood magic is just a tool.

<shakes head> You don't need to deal with a demon to use that sword to cleave someone.

[wsandista]

Cantina wrote...

wsandista wrote...

So I guess greatswords are evil because you can cleave someones head in two with one? Blood magic is just a tool.

<shakes head> You don't need to deal with a demon to use that sword to cleave someone.

Does that really make it better, that I don't have to contact a malicious outsider to brutally murder someone? Blood magic is simply a tool for survival, just like any tool it can be used for good or evil, it all depends on who wields it.

[Cantina]

wsandista wrote...

Cantina wrote...

wsandista wrote...

So I guess greatswords are evil because you can cleave someones head in two with one? Blood magic is just a tool.

<shakes head> You don't need to deal with a demon to use that sword to cleave someone.

Does that really make it better, that I don't have to contact a malicious outsider to brutally murder someone? Blood magic is simply a tool for survival, just like any tool it can be used for good or evil, it all depends on who wields it.

And most Blood mages who use it for surrvial end up six feet under. I just don't see the appeal of using Blood Magic to surrive when you can use normal magic to do the same thing.Summoning shades or any other creature is not surrival its desperation.

I'm sure Uldred was simply using his blood magic for good purposes. And those demons were actually cute teddy bears just wanting a snuggle. Oh and those mages he turned simply costumes and those ones on the floor, there not dead, simply sleeping. How silly of me to think it was all evil.

[deuce985]

This is actually Bioware's biggest flaw with their writing in DA. They barely show any side of the "good" from Blood Magic, despite it obviously being there. I really hope we see some "good" uses for Blood Magic in DA3. It was HEAVILY steered towards evil in DA2. In fact, I believe we only saw one sequence of where it was "good"...

It's obviously based on how much the Mage wants to abuse the Blood Magic...that's when it gets out of control. I'm assuming that because my Hawke Mage wouldn't be running around with Blood Magic saving Kirkwall...

[wsandista]

Cantina wrote...

And most Blood mages who use it for surrvial end up six feet under. I just don't see the appeal of using Blood Magic to surrive when you can use normal magic to do the same thing.Summoning shades or any other creature is not surrival its desperation.

Most Blood Mages turn to blood magic to avoid capture by the Templars. If you have a group of individuals specifically trained to hunt you down that are resistant to your normal magic, you would use any options available to avoid capture because capture by Templars means either death or Tranquility. Both of those option are much more dire to the mage as resorting to Blood Magic.

I'm sure Uldred was simply using his blood magic for good purposes. And those demons were actually cute teddy bears just wanting a snuggle. Oh and those mages he turned simply costumes and those ones on the floor, there not dead, simply sleeping. How silly of me to think it was all evil.

Uldred was weak and gave in to the demon, Thrasks daughter (probably) wasn't a Blood Mage, but she became an abomination just like Uldred did, so it doesn't take blood magic for a mage to become an abomination. Loghain left the King to die, and he wasn't possessed by a demon, so it doesn't take a demon or blood magic to turn you into a monster.

Modifié par wsandista, 16 mai 2012 - 03:12 .

[berelinde]

In DA:O, Duncan tells the mage Warden recruit that they will use blood magic, if necessary, to stop the Blight.

According to Jowan, blood - life energy - can be used to empower spells in much the same way as lyrium. Merrill seems to confirm this when she tells Hawke that she could have used loads of lyrium to cleanse her mirror shards but she did not have it. She did have blood, however, so that's what she used. Malcolm Hawke used blood magic to reinforce the seals binding Corypheus (spelling?). So far, we're talking about situations where lyrium/more mages would have been able to do the job without any blood magic use at all, had lyrium or more mages been available.

The only time we are told that blood magic is indispensible, it is by Alain during Best Served Cold. I would be willing to accept that Alain was misinformed and that there were other ways to break the stasis without using blood magic, but we'll never know.

To tell the truth, it seems as if the only time demons are actually involved is in *learning* blood magic in the first place. They seem to teach it when mages want more power than that which is available to them by conventional means. It is also possible to learn blood magic from books as Jowan probably did or accidentally, as Anders suggests Merril might have done. She then tells him that no, she did actually learn blood magic from a demon, but Anders original supposition suggests that it is possible to develop blood magic spontaneously.

So, why do blood mages seem to attract demons? There's a lot of power moving around in the hands of people who have already demonstrated that they are willing to use with unconventional means to get what they want. Maybe demons think they have a shoe in. Not every blood mage becomes a meat bag abomination, so mages must have the ability to refuse the demon's offer.

Also note that one does not have to use blood magic at all to become an abomination. During the Harrowing in the mage Origin story, had the PC accepted Pride's offer, s/he would have become one. Olivia Thrask does not seem to have used blood magic prior to becoming an abomination. She seems to have called out to a demon and asked for help when her situation was hopeless.

So, with all of that in mind, I'm going to have to agree with wsandista (with conditions). Blood magic is a tool, neither inherently good nor inherently evil. It is an incredibly dangerous tool (like a wood planer with a dull bit), but a tool nonetheless.

Edit: About the "blood magic" spells being evil, some are, some aren't. The domination spells are undeniably evil, but a blood mage doesn't have to learn those spells. Activating the sustained mode doesn't scream evil. It just allows a mage to power his spells with his life energy rather than mana. Sacrificing companion life energy... probably evil, but only because the mage is taking something without asking first.

Mages aren't the only ones to use blood magic. Templars use it themselves to track escaped mages. And the DA2 Templar talent Annulment is also arguably blood magic.

Modifié par berelinde, 16 mai 2012 - 04:04 .

[Dave of Canada]

Bad. You use it, you die when I run you through.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 mai 2012 - 04:05 .

[berelinde]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Bad. You use it, you die.

The reverse is also true.

[Dave of Canada]

Filament wrote...

It's a means of establishing the dominion that is the mages' birthright, nothing could be nobler than that.

No, that's shapeshifting. You turn into a dog and mark your territory.

[TEWR]

Cantina wrote...

wsandista wrote...

So I guess greatswords are evil because you can cleave someones head in two with one? Blood magic is just a tool.

<shakes head> You don't need to deal with a demon to use that sword to cleave someone.

You don't need to deal with a demon to learn blood magic either. The only reason demons are the go-to source is because the arcane is eternal in the Fade -- as evidenced by Torpor's remarks -- and more then likely the Chantry burnt any books on how to learn blood magic.

But the Warden can ask the Baroness in the Fade to teach him blood magic. That she was really a demon is ultimately irrelevant because the Warden didn't know it at the time and asked her if she could teach him/her blood magic in exchange for his services.

That indicates that you can learn blood magic from a mage.

Plus, the Circle Tower of Ferelden housed books on the subject.

So you don't need to deal with a demon to learn blood magic. Is it the quickest route? Sure. But it's not the only route.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Filament wrote...

It's a means of establishing the dominion that is the mages' birthright, nothing could be nobler than that.

No, that's shapeshifting. You turn into a dog and mark your territory.

A bear, thank you very much.

No. A gorilla.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Cantina wrote...

wsandista wrote...

So I guess greatswords are evil because you can cleave someones head in two with one? Blood magic is just a tool.

<shakes head> You don't need to deal with a demon to use that sword to cleave someone.

You don't need to deal with a demon to learn blood magic either. The only reason demons are the go-to source is because the arcane is eternal in the Fade -- as evidenced by Torpor's remarks -- and more then likely the Chantry burnt any books on how to learn blood magic.

But the Warden can ask the Baroness in the Fade to teach him blood magic. That she was really a demon is ultimately irrelevant because the Warden didn't know it at the time and asked her if she could teach him/her blood magic in exchange for his services.

That indicates that you can learn blood magic from a mage.

Plus, the Circle Tower of Ferelden housed books on the subject.

So you don't need to deal with a demon to learn blood magic. Is it the quickest route? Sure. But it's not the only route.

Anders has dialogue with Merrill that starts like this: "So, when you first did blood magic...it was an accident, right?  You cut yourself and realized the power?  You didn't actually deal with a demon?"  There's more, and Merrill says that she did indeed deal with the demon, but this is irrelevant.  What is is that we have Anders clearly indicating that no demons have to be involved in blood magic at all.  His words suggest that mages have an instinctual ability to sense the magical potential latent in their own blood.  I'd argue that while training may be required to work spells specific to the blood magic school, simply using blood to power a spell from any school is a natural part of being a mage, any mage.  From an evolutionary standpoint, after all, mages would have had to evolve a means of fueling magic naturally, since lyrium isn't the most readily available substance.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Filament wrote...

It's a means of establishing the dominion that is the mages' birthright, nothing could be nobler than that.

No, that's shapeshifting. You turn into a dog and mark your territory.

A bear, thank you very much.

No. A gorilla.

What is it with you and simians?

[Cantina]

No way…..you do not need to do blood magic to deal with a demon….who knew! <Rolls eyes>

You seriously think I do not know that. I would not be here voicing my opinion if I did not read all the lore there is to know about such things.

People turn to Blood Magic when a Templar is after them because they freak out. They feel a sense of desperation. If the Templars were not tracking down a runaway mage, I doubt they would use Blood Magic.

Yes, the Templars use Blood Magic to track down mages, which is why I say the Chantry is hypocrites in that regard. The Wardens use Blood Magic to aid in the Blights, but honestly, there not exactly smart. Sure, use Blood Magic to stop a Blight, now you got a possessed Warden, summoning demons and slaughtering everyone...<coughs> Avernius and The Warden Commander <coughs>. Using evil to end evil never ends well.

My point is most mages who use Blood Magic are involved with demons and demons are evil. In addition, some mages are dumb and not realizing that when you use Blood Magic there is also a price to pay. You may have your freedom now from using it on those Templars, but eventually the “loan shark” is going to come collect one day.

Oh and sorry Etheral, I know your a huge Merill fan, but I really really hate Blood Mages.

Edit: I'm aware of that converstation with Anders and Merill. I am sure there are some mages who accidently cut themselves, or did it once like whatshisname in "Best Served Cold" quest. But if you continue to do it eventually the consequences catch up with you. Some people however cannot kick it once they started.

Modifié par Cantina, 16 mai 2012 - 07:30 .

[fchopin]

Windninja47 wrote...

It's like guns. Sure, some people are going to be responsible, but the fact that the weapon is so dangerous means that even if there's a chance one person is irresponsible with it, then it isn't worth taking the risk of allowing it.

That's right- I support the Templars.

It is not like guns, we have no idea what kind of deal we make with demons to get blood magic so until we do there is no way for us to make a judgement.

[AkiKishi]

fchopin wrote...

Windninja47 wrote...

It's like guns. Sure, some people are going to be responsible, but the fact that the weapon is so dangerous means that even if there's a chance one person is irresponsible with it, then it isn't worth taking the risk of allowing it.

That's right- I support the Templars.

It is not like guns, we have no idea what kind of deal we make with demons to get blood magic so until we do there is no way for us to make a judgement.

Depends. Some personality types are just like that,give them a gun and they will want to use it. Our current view of bloodmagic is like watching nothing but massacares on the TV. The only exception is the PC for whom blood magic is nothing but a gameplay mechanic.

[berelinde]

Cantina wrote...

My point is most mages who use Blood Magic are involved with demons and demons are evil. In addition, some mages are dumb and not realizing that when you use Blood Magic there is also a price to pay. You may have your freedom now from using it on those Templars, but eventually the “loan shark” is going to come collect one day.

"Most mages"? Are there statistics that back this claim? Also, there is a flaw in your presentation of causality. Unless actual possession occurs, the demon and the mage remain separate entities. One might argue that a mage who summmons demons or enlists them for specific tasks is guilty of consorting with evil, but the mage himself is not evil unless he has personally embraced the darkness, as it were.

Precisely what price will need to be paid later? What consequences? Who is this loan shark? Since you are so well-versed in the lore, you should be able to provide specific examples of what happens to blood mages who use blood magic and continue to resist the demons. Keep in mind that Avernus himself was never possessed by a demon (that was Sophia Dreyden, who wasn't even a mage), and that despite prolonging his life through constant use of blood magic, has retained his sanity. Yes, some blood mages do give in to the demons, but "some" is not the same as "all" and there is no demonstrable inevitability involved. Granted, if the blood mage uses his magic for evil ends, that does make him an evil person, but the same could be said of any person who uses his abilities for evil ends, whether they're a mage or not.

Oh and sorry Etheral, I know your a huge Merill fan, but I really really hate Blood Mages.

Yeah, I get that.

But if you continue to do it eventually the consequences catch up with you. Some people however cannot kick it once they started.

Again, what consequences? Or are you referring to karmic retribution rather than inevitable demonic possession?

Some people are incapable of relinquishing power of any kind. That shows that *they* weak, but it does not say anything about the source of the power they wield. Their actions - what they choose to do with their power - may be evil, but it isn't fair to blame the tool for the owner's decisions.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

What is it with you and simians?

Lifelong obsession/something I've always enjoyed. I think I may have been a gorilla in a past life.

That and simians are always funny.

[Silfren]

Cantina wrote...

No way…..you do not need to do blood magic to deal with a demon….who knew! <Rolls eyes>

You seriously think I do not know that. I would not be here voicing my opinion if I did not read all the lore there is to know about such things.

People turn to Blood Magic when a Templar is after them because they freak out. They feel a sense of desperation. If the Templars were not tracking down a runaway mage, I doubt they would use Blood Magic.

Yes, the Templars use Blood Magic to track down mages, which is why I say the Chantry is hypocrites in that regard. The Wardens use Blood Magic to aid in the Blights, but honestly, there not exactly smart. Sure, use Blood Magic to stop a Blight, now you got a possessed Warden, summoning demons and slaughtering everyone...<coughs> Avernius and The Warden Commander <coughs>. Using evil to end evil never ends well.

My point is most mages who use Blood Magic are involved with demons and demons are evil. In addition, some mages are dumb and not realizing that when you use Blood Magic there is also a price to pay. You may have your freedom now from using it on those Templars, but eventually the “loan shark” is going to come collect one day.

Oh and sorry Etheral, I know your a huge Merill fan, but I really really hate Blood Mages.

Edit: I'm aware of that converstation with Anders and Merill. I am sure there are some mages who accidently cut themselves, or did it once like whatshisname in "Best Served Cold" quest. But if you continue to do it eventually the consequences catch up with you. Some people however cannot kick it once they started.

Not quite.  Part of the entire debate hinges on whether or not blood magic is inherently evil.  Some of us simply don't believe that that is the case, so "using evil to end evil" is not an argument we will accept.  It assumes as foregone a conclusion that actually is anything but.  The same goes for whether demons will aways "come after you" after the fashion of loan sharks.  This also assumes a conclusion as a given--that of demons being involved in the learning and practice of blood magic, which is part of the very point of contention.  If you want to argue that case, fine.  But you can't very well make another argument using this as the premise, and expect those of us who question the very validity of that claim to accept it as viable.

Avernus may have used blood magic and summoned demons, but he was not possessed, so I'm not sure why you're trying to suggest that he was.

[Cantina]

Silfren wrote...
Avernus may have used blood magic and summoned demons, but he was not possessed, so I'm not sure why you're trying to suggest that he was.

I said the Warden Commander was possessed.

Were going in circles here. Some people will see it one way others will it another.

Guess will just have to agree to disagree.

[Uccio]

It would be cool to have a option to be possessed by demon as blood mage, if one wants to. But in a way that the demon would be under the players control. This would bring more powers/spells and strange discussion options.

[Silfren]

Cantina wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Avernus may have used blood magic and summoned demons, but he was not possessed, so I'm not sure why you're trying to suggest that he was.

I said the Warden Commander was possessed.

Were going in circles here. Some people will see it one way others will it another.

Guess will just have to agree to disagree.

And nobody ever learns anything from ongoing discussion, even when they don't agree? 

[Tirigon]

Cantina wrote...

When people post comments like these I tend to wonder if the Dalish are truly real.

Its the truth. A good person would not consort with demons or use blood magic to increase their power. They may have good intentions, but ultimately its selfish and those around them end up paying the price.

No. A bloodmage can use his own bloood as fuel for spells as well.


If he does not, that is because he is an evil person not because he uses an evil tool.