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[Icinix]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Yes they were. We knew they worked through indoctrination, through perhaps crafting devastating wars, from the shadows until they were ready to strike. We knew that everything we developed throughout the galaxy was along a path of their choosing. We knew that extinction cycles repeated.

You may think all of this spells "we don't know anything of substance yet" but to me it spells "awesome powerful unknown enemy."

Which is blandness in the extreme. There have been a ridiculous number of "awesome powerful unknown enemies" in the history of pop culture. It's only when the "unknown" part is revealed that you can see whether or not they pass muster.

I think I'm not making myself clear - the issue isn't that they ceased to be unknown - but what they ended up being was, to put it bluntly, poor.

Their methods were frightening. Their abilities were limitless. Their determination was unwavering and their patience was timeless.

They were an organic and machine construct with incredible intelligence and had been around for millions of years.

THEN - at the end of ME3 - they're remote control toys.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Icinix wrote...

I think I'm not making myself clear

Then the fault is mine for not making my own point plain enough. My point was that the Reapers can't be considered awesome or poorly concieved until we find out what the "unknown" stuff is in the first place, regardless of how appealing that "unknown" seemed in the beginning. I was always apathetic toward the Reapers up to this point because we didn't know nearly enough about them to draw credible conclusions; it's only now, in ME3, that we find out enough to decide whether or not we like them or not.

Liking or disliking the Reapers in ME1 or ME2 is like forming an opinion on your latest Christmas present before you've finished taking all the wrapping off. This is the primary reason why other antagonist characters such as Saren Arterius and the Illusive Man exist: to give us something more defined to focus on during the time where the Reapers are an unknown quantity in terms of character development and motivation.

[Aesieru]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I think I'm not making myself clear

Then the fault is mine for not making my own point plain enough. My point was that the Reapers can't be considered awesome or poorly concieved until we find out what the "unknown" stuff is in the first place, regardless of how appealing that "unknown" seemed in the beginning. I was always apathetic toward the Reapers up to this point because we didn't know nearly enough about them to draw credible conclusions; it's only now, in ME3, that we find out enough to decide whether or not we like them or not.

Liking or disliking the Reapers in ME1 or ME2 is like forming an opinion on your latest Christmas present before you've finished taking all the wrapping off. This is the primary reason why other antagonist characters such as Saren Arterius and the Illusive Man exist: to give us something more defined to focus on during the time where the Reapers are an unknown quantity in terms of character development and motivation.

I very much like the Reapers. They are like the cogs that make the galaxy turn.

[Icinix]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I think I'm not making myself clear

Then the fault is mine for not making my own point plain enough. My point was that the Reapers can't be considered awesome or poorly concieved until we find out what the "unknown" stuff is in the first place, regardless of how appealing that "unknown" seemed in the beginning. I was always apathetic toward the Reapers up to this point because we didn't know nearly enough about them to draw credible conclusions; it's only now, in ME3, that we find out enough to decide whether or not we like them or not.

Liking or disliking the Reapers in ME1 or ME2 is like forming an opinion on your latest Christmas present before you've finished taking all the wrapping off. This is the primary reason why other antagonist characters such as Saren Arterius and the Illusive Man exist: to give us something more defined to focus on during the time where the Reapers are an unknown quantity in terms of character development and motivation.

I understand what you're saying - but its not the motivation that concerns me (although its kind of meh), but the fact that the character development of the Reapers led them to being - remote controlled.

They could have retained their awesomeness by simply still being independant powerful creatures - following the original reason for their existence. The second the Guardian or any concept of Reaper leadership came about - it undid the whole "each of us is a nation" etc that was built up. You can continue to debate the point that we didn't know enough about them so they could have always been like that from ME1, BUT - it does seem to be a recent story development tailored for ME3.

[Aesieru]

Icinix wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I think I'm not making myself clear

Then the fault is mine for not making my own point plain enough. My point was that the Reapers can't be considered awesome or poorly concieved until we find out what the "unknown" stuff is in the first place, regardless of how appealing that "unknown" seemed in the beginning. I was always apathetic toward the Reapers up to this point because we didn't know nearly enough about them to draw credible conclusions; it's only now, in ME3, that we find out enough to decide whether or not we like them or not.

Liking or disliking the Reapers in ME1 or ME2 is like forming an opinion on your latest Christmas present before you've finished taking all the wrapping off. This is the primary reason why other antagonist characters such as Saren Arterius and the Illusive Man exist: to give us something more defined to focus on during the time where the Reapers are an unknown quantity in terms of character development and motivation.

I understand what you're saying - but its not the motivation that concerns me (although its kind of meh), but the fact that the character development of the Reapers led them to being - remote controlled.

They could have retained their awesomeness by simply still being independant powerful creatures - following the original reason for their existence. The second the Guardian or any concept of Reaper leadership came about - it undid the whole "each of us is a nation" etc that was built up. You can continue to debate the point that we didn't know enough about them so they could have always been like that from ME1, BUT - it does seem to be a recent story development tailored for ME3.

they are a nation, based on the fact that they have an entirety of millions of programs and voices in each. They just have a overriding priority protocol.

[Icinix]

Aesieru wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I think I'm not making myself clear

Then the fault is mine for not making my own point plain enough. My point was that the Reapers can't be considered awesome or poorly concieved until we find out what the "unknown" stuff is in the first place, regardless of how appealing that "unknown" seemed in the beginning. I was always apathetic toward the Reapers up to this point because we didn't know nearly enough about them to draw credible conclusions; it's only now, in ME3, that we find out enough to decide whether or not we like them or not.

Liking or disliking the Reapers in ME1 or ME2 is like forming an opinion on your latest Christmas present before you've finished taking all the wrapping off. This is the primary reason why other antagonist characters such as Saren Arterius and the Illusive Man exist: to give us something more defined to focus on during the time where the Reapers are an unknown quantity in terms of character development and motivation.

I understand what you're saying - but its not the motivation that concerns me (although its kind of meh), but the fact that the character development of the Reapers led them to being - remote controlled.

They could have retained their awesomeness by simply still being independant powerful creatures - following the original reason for their existence. The second the Guardian or any concept of Reaper leadership came about - it undid the whole "each of us is a nation" etc that was built up. You can continue to debate the point that we didn't know enough about them so they could have always been like that from ME1, BUT - it does seem to be a recent story development tailored for ME3.

they are a nation, based on the fact that they have an entirety of millions of programs and voices in each. They just have a overriding priority protocol.

Which can be controlled, eased up on or increased by someone on a virtual throne. Thats where my issue comes from - were the overiding protocol hardwire into the Reapers and permanent in their application, I could probably swallow it a little more.

[Aesieru]

Icinix wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I think I'm not making myself clear

Then the fault is mine for not making my own point plain enough. My point was that the Reapers can't be considered awesome or poorly concieved until we find out what the "unknown" stuff is in the first place, regardless of how appealing that "unknown" seemed in the beginning. I was always apathetic toward the Reapers up to this point because we didn't know nearly enough about them to draw credible conclusions; it's only now, in ME3, that we find out enough to decide whether or not we like them or not.

Liking or disliking the Reapers in ME1 or ME2 is like forming an opinion on your latest Christmas present before you've finished taking all the wrapping off. This is the primary reason why other antagonist characters such as Saren Arterius and the Illusive Man exist: to give us something more defined to focus on during the time where the Reapers are an unknown quantity in terms of character development and motivation.

I understand what you're saying - but its not the motivation that concerns me (although its kind of meh), but the fact that the character development of the Reapers led them to being - remote controlled.

They could have retained their awesomeness by simply still being independant powerful creatures - following the original reason for their existence. The second the Guardian or any concept of Reaper leadership came about - it undid the whole "each of us is a nation" etc that was built up. You can continue to debate the point that we didn't know enough about them so they could have always been like that from ME1, BUT - it does seem to be a recent story development tailored for ME3.

they are a nation, based on the fact that they have an entirety of millions of programs and voices in each. They just have a overriding priority protocol.

Which can be controlled, eased up on or increased by someone on a virtual throne. Thats where my issue comes from - were the overiding protocol hardwire into the Reapers and permanent in their application, I could probably swallow it a little more.

It is permanent, the issue is not that they are remotely controlled, the issue is that the Crucible simply maintains that overriding protocol. The crucible is more like the programmer who made that protocol still existing because he was stuck in stasis incase they ever had to debug it.

[Ahms]

Icinix wrote...
Their methods were frightening. Their abilities were limitless. Their determination was unwavering and their patience was timeless.

They were an organic and machine construct with incredible intelligence and had been around for millions of years.

THEN - at the end of ME3 - they're remote control toys.

Fear of the unknown. That's all what you're saying amounts to. An enemy isn't so fearsome once you know all about it and know how to defeat it.

Your concern isn't warranted, because if they were still the "awesome, fearsome, invincible," (and what have you) then it'd be pointless to tell a story of winning or any story other than just getting annihilated, wouldn't it? Let's just lay prostrate and die, instead.

Modifié par Ahms, 03 mars 2012 - 01:42 .

[natzo]

Capeo wrote...

So the Reapers use AI that has reached singularity (geth) to help stop said singularity from happening? Okay.

On top of that 50,000 years is way too long if they mean to stop singularities. A species would be spared by being where humans were 10,000 years ago. That leaves 40,000 years to develop AI.

That reminds me of the Raloi, who have barely made contact with the rest of the Galaxy. Had they been behind a couple of decades, they would have been spared and maybe develope far more. Too bad the ran away in fear and destroyed their tech.


Then again maybe they don't always wait 50k years to attack.

[corkey sweet]

i always figured the Reapers where created by an ancient race of organics. just was hoping we would find out why

[Blacklash93]

Singulartiy is a decent explanation off of what Sovy said in ME1.

The very existance of the Guardian, however, is just stupid. He brings about so many plot holes and leaps in logic that I just can't fathom what the writers were thinking of when they gave him the green light as he is.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 03 mars 2012 - 02:56 .

[Ctorquamedia]

I thought id chime in on this debate, i have found it to be quite interesting.

I have come to the conclusion that the reapers were created possibly for some unknown purpose, and citadel/crucible acts as a limiting mechanism so that the reapers don't fall prey to their own programing. Now over the millions of years they have existed, the citadel/crucible has changed and as a result the overall objective has changed, whether this is from external forces i.e a Shepard like person interacting directly with the citadel/crucible and changing the base programming or just a gradual change over time is unknown. But regardless of that, i believe that the reapers are largely autonomous with the citadel/crucible acting as a framing mechanism in which they operate.

[Pr3ying M4nt15 360]

To be fair, it kinda makes sense that they need an overriding mechanism (I'm surprised Harbinger can't do this on his own but there you have it), it's also plausable given how Saren thought, they each Reaper would still believe it has free will and is independant.

The Reapers are made from other races, without the override it's possible that some might might eventually disagree with the methods and change their views / opinions and go to war on each other. Wouldn't be very effective at control if that happened.

Perhaps each Reaper itself is its own piece of Heaven with all the programs based on the essense of its respective race living out their own virtual world within the Reaper. Legion kinda points this out in ME2 almost, if you use your imagination a bit. ''Nazara, that's what the programs called themselves'' Nazara is probably the race Sovereign was made from.

They might have all the independent freedom within their software realm of existance. As Sovereign said ''there is a realm of existance you cannot begin to comprehend''

In the physical realm existance they are probably pretty automated as in the Reaper ship just Reaps when it's told to and the Guardian and Harbinger probably indoctrinate them to eventually think the same way anyway.

Modifié par Pr3ying M4nt15 360, 03 mars 2012 - 03:44 .

[Aesieru]

Ctorquamedia wrote...

I thought id chime in on this debate, i have found it to be quite interesting.

I have come to the conclusion that the reapers were created possibly for some unknown purpose, and citadel/crucible acts as a limiting mechanism so that the reapers don't fall prey to their own programing. Now over the millions of years they have existed, the citadel/crucible has changed and as a result the overall objective has changed, whether this is from external forces i.e a Shepard like person interacting directly with the citadel/crucible and changing the base programming or just a gradual change over time is unknown. But regardless of that, i believe that the reapers are largely autonomous with the citadel/crucible acting as a framing mechanism in which they operate.

I think the entirety of the crucible sequence disagrees with you.

[Aesieru]

Pr3ying M4nt15 360 wrote...

To be fair, it kinda makes sense that they need an overriding mechanism (I'm surprised Harbinger can't do this on his own but there you have it), it's also plausable given how Saren thought, they each Reaper would still believe it has free will and is independant.

The Reapers are made from other races, without the override it's possible that some might might eventually disagree with the methods and change their views / opinions and go to war on each other. Wouldn't be very effective at control if that happened.

Perhaps each Reaper itself is its own piece of Heaven with all the programs based on the essense of its respective race living out their own virtual world within the Reaper. Legion kinda points this out in ME2 almost, if you use your imagination a bit. ''Nazara, that's what the programs called themselves'' Nazara is probably the race Sovereign was made from.

They might have all the independent freedom within their software realm of existance. As Sovereign said ''there is a realm of existance you cannot begin to comprehend''

In the physical realm existance they are probably pretty automated as in the Reaper ship just Reaps when it's told to and the Guardian and Harbinger probably indoctrinate them to eventually think the same way anyway.

Nazara is the collective labeled identity of the many programs communicating together and resulting in one unified thought.

The Geth are multiple programs as well but they are not indepenent but instead dependent on each other.

It seems more that the genetic DNA is used to create a synthetic organic mesh that is then sealed in the squad-fish reaper shell and which somehow forms new programs based on that, but is ultimately in-tune and in agreement with Harbinger and the other reapers.

[Icinix]

Aesieru wrote...

Icinix wrote...


Which can be controlled, eased up on or increased by someone on a virtual throne. Thats where my issue comes from - were the overiding protocol hardwire into the Reapers and permanent in their application, I could probably swallow it a little more.

It is permanent, the issue is not that they are remotely controlled, the issue is that the Crucible simply maintains that overriding protocol. The crucible is more like the programmer who made that protocol still existing because he was stuck in stasis incase they ever had to debug it.

Ahh - my mistake then . I thought the Guardian or whoever always had control over them. In that case, its a non issue.

[Icinix]

Ahms wrote...

Icinix wrote...
Their methods were frightening. Their abilities were limitless. Their determination was unwavering and their patience was timeless.

They were an organic and machine construct with incredible intelligence and had been around for millions of years.

THEN - at the end of ME3 - they're remote control toys.

Fear of the unknown. That's all what you're saying amounts to. An enemy isn't so fearsome once you know all about it and know how to defeat it.

Your concern isn't warranted, because if they were still the "awesome, fearsome, invincible," (and what have you) then it'd be pointless to tell a story of winning or any story other than just getting annihilated, wouldn't it? Let's just lay prostrate and die, instead.

No I still find them frightening, their methods and means are terrifying. I was under the impression they were always under control of a single entity who was using them as tools, but since they're not, its not an issue.

[Aesieru]

Icinix wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Icinix wrote...


Which can be controlled, eased up on or increased by someone on a virtual throne. Thats where my issue comes from - were the overiding protocol hardwire into the Reapers and permanent in their application, I could probably swallow it a little more.

It is permanent, the issue is not that they are remotely controlled, the issue is that the Crucible simply maintains that overriding protocol. The crucible is more like the programmer who made that protocol still existing because he was stuck in stasis incase they ever had to debug it.

Ahh - my mistake then . I thought the Guardian or whoever always had control over them. In that case, its a non issue.

With the use of that override protocol? Yes, but that's more like a new boss getting the programmer out of stasis and telling him to debug the program that he made or to change a few variables.

It's not like you with an xbox controller directly controlling everything they do (which would be boring when they sleep).

---

I think the reapers relegate themselves as tools but they don't realize it and believe they are acting of their own accord for reasons they no longer think about.

Modifié par Aesieru, 03 mars 2012 - 04:06 .

[Icinix]

Aesieru wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Icinix wrote...


Which can be controlled, eased up on or increased by someone on a virtual throne. Thats where my issue comes from - were the overiding protocol hardwire into the Reapers and permanent in their application, I could probably swallow it a little more.

It is permanent, the issue is not that they are remotely controlled, the issue is that the Crucible simply maintains that overriding protocol. The crucible is more like the programmer who made that protocol still existing because he was stuck in stasis incase they ever had to debug it.

Ahh - my mistake then . I thought the Guardian or whoever always had control over them. In that case, its a non issue.

With the use of that override protocol? Yes, but that's more like a new boss getting the programmer out of stasis and telling him to debug the program that he made or to change a few variables.

It's not like you with an xbox controller directly controlling everything they do (which would be boring when they sleep).

---

I think the reapers relegate themselves as tools but they don't realize it and believe they are acting of their own accord for reasons they no longer think about.

Yeah. I still think the whole Guardian thing was unnecessary and takes a bit away from the Reapers, but thats not as bad as what I thought it was. Are the Reapers aware of the Guardian?

[Aesieru]

Icinix wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Icinix wrote...


Which can be controlled, eased up on or increased by someone on a virtual throne. Thats where my issue comes from - were the overiding protocol hardwire into the Reapers and permanent in their application, I could probably swallow it a little more.

It is permanent, the issue is not that they are remotely controlled, the issue is that the Crucible simply maintains that overriding protocol. The crucible is more like the programmer who made that protocol still existing because he was stuck in stasis incase they ever had to debug it.

Ahh - my mistake then . I thought the Guardian or whoever always had control over them. In that case, its a non issue.

With the use of that override protocol? Yes, but that's more like a new boss getting the programmer out of stasis and telling him to debug the program that he made or to change a few variables.

It's not like you with an xbox controller directly controlling everything they do (which would be boring when they sleep).

---

I think the reapers relegate themselves as tools but they don't realize it and believe they are acting of their own accord for reasons they no longer think about.

Yeah. I still think the whole Guardian thing was unnecessary and takes a bit away from the Reapers, but thats not as bad as what I thought it was. Are the Reapers aware of the Guardian?

A failsafe / overwatch / watchdog protocol makes sense when dealing with caretakers of the galaxy.

As for whether they themselves are aware? I don't think we'll learn that, we don't get to talk to Harbinger this time around.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Icinix wrote...

Yeah. I still think the whole Guardian thing was unnecessary and takes a bit away from the Reapers, but thats not as bad as what I thought it was. Are the Reapers aware of the Guardian?

Hard to say at this point, but if I were a betting man, I'd put my money on "no."

[Icinix]

Aesieru wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

With the use of that override protocol? Yes, but that's more like a new boss getting the programmer out of stasis and telling him to debug the program that he made or to change a few variables.

It's not like you with an xbox controller directly controlling everything they do (which would be boring when they sleep).

---

I think the reapers relegate themselves as tools but they don't realize it and believe they are acting of their own accord for reasons they no longer think about.

Yeah. I still think the whole Guardian thing was unnecessary and takes a bit away from the Reapers, but thats not as bad as what I thought it was. Are the Reapers aware of the Guardian?

A failsafe / overwatch / watchdog protocol makes sense when dealing with caretakers of the galaxy.

As for whether they themselves are aware? I don't think we'll learn that, we don't get to talk to Harbinger this time around.

Meh, Harbinger was a pompus fruitcake anyway.

So does the Guardian have the capacity to overide the Reapers without the Crucible? If the Guardian was installed as caretaker / watchdog / failsafe etc - it would seem silly not to give them that power to stop the Reapers if they did lose control a little bit?

[Patriota125]

You got it all wrong.

The Reapers were organic once, so they created a network so they could upload their minds into it. A reaper is the creation of millions of minds into a single machine. So, now they're organics in the body of synthetics and are now immortal. That simple. They just want to live forever. They harvest civilization to create more Reapers, they can't allow civilization to rise more because they could be defeated and couldn't accomplish their goal.

Modifié par Patriota125, 03 mars 2012 - 04:23 .

[Aesieru]

Patriota125 wrote...

You got it all wrong.

The Reapers were organic once, so they created a network so they could upload their minds into it. A reaper is the creation of millions of minds into a single machine. So, now they're organics in the body of synthetics and are now immortal. That simple. They just want to live forever. They harvest civilization to create more Reapers, they can't allow civilization to rise more because they could be defeated and couldn't accomplish their goal.

Crucible disputes this entirely.

Not even disputes, it rejects your thought and offers the real reason, which is the technology singularity.

Modifié par Aesieru, 03 mars 2012 - 04:29 .