232 réponses à ce sujet

[LOLandStuff]

Blowing up the relays and destroying the reapers is that you don't give squat about what the Guardian says. You just believe they have no right to interfere in your evolution and show them the middle finger. And you also take a risk.

[WizenSlinky0]

Broder O wrote...

What I don't quite get is how blowing up the relays and destroying the reapers will prevent a future singularity?

So civilizations don't grow according to the guidelines set by the reapers and their creators which is apparentely a one-way highway towards a singularity event..
Fair enough..
But what guarantee is there that future civilizations won't create AI that will lead to tech singularity anyway?

Seems like the whole plot is nothing but a stop-gap... A short term solution to a long term problem..

..:Which when you think about it is what the reapers were too...

None of the endings really "stop" the singularity. It just allows you to re-elvaluate how to approach it.

Destroy is about self-determination. If organics are bound to be destroyed we want it to be through our own choices, not saved by their twisted cycle.

Synthesis is about potentially averting it by allowing both sides to think more like the other. To understand and cooperate.

Control is either about using the reapers as a tool to defend rather than attack, or potentially continuing the cycle. Depends on how you approach it in your head.

[milominderbinder]

So the game automatically assumes that the singularity is inherently evil and will always end in self-destruction? That's the last thing we need, another IP that makes their audience afraid of GNR.

[Aesieru]

Aesieru wrote...

http://social.biowar...ndex/9613255/14

Please refer to the previous pages on this thread for logical insight before posting.

[ODST 5723]

It doesn't assume that it's evil. It assumes that it's inevitable and that it will lead to the destruction of organic life. it's neither good or evil. It's an unacceptable outcome that the cycle was created to avoid rather than prevent or fix.

Modifié par ODST 5723, 04 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[Solduri]

if it is inevitable that organic life will destroy itself due to an intelligence explosion which will cause a technology singularity, then why not wipe out all organic life instead of letting them do the inevitable over and over?

[Aesieru]

Solduri wrote...

if it is inevitable that organic life will destroy itself due to an intelligence explosion which will cause a technology singularity, then why not wipe out all organic life instead of letting them do the inevitable over and over?

Because the Reapers aren't evil.

[xtorma]

ODST 5723 wrote...

It doesn't assume that it's evil. It assumes that it's inevitable and that it will lead to the destruction of organic life. it's neither good or evil. It's an unacceptable outcome that the cycle was created to avoid rather than prevent or fix.

they are stalling, they don't know how to fix it.

[Solduri]

Aesieru wrote...

Solduri wrote...

if it is inevitable that organic life will destroy itself due to an intelligence explosion which will cause a technology singularity, then why not wipe out all organic life instead of letting them do the inevitable over and over?

Because the Reapers aren't evil.

evil is a subjective word that has no place in what i said

it is pointless to keep something from doing the inevitable over and over 

Modifié par Solduri, 04 mars 2012 - 10:55 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Solduri wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Solduri wrote...

if it is inevitable that organic life will destroy itself due to an intelligence explosion which will cause a technology singularity, then why not wipe out all organic life instead of letting them do the inevitable over and over?

Because the Reapers aren't evil.

evil is a subjective word that has no place in what i said

it is pointless to keep something from doing the enivitable over and over 

It's a stop-gap measure in order for a solution to present itself.

[Solduri]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Solduri wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Solduri wrote...

if it is inevitable that organic life will destroy itself due to an intelligence explosion which will cause a technology singularity, then why not wipe out all organic life instead of letting them do the inevitable over and over?

Because the Reapers aren't evil.

evil is a subjective word that has no place in what i said

it is pointless to keep something from doing the enivitable over and over 

It's a stop-gap measure in order for a solution to present itself.

how can there be a solution if you already accept it as inevitable?

[Shunt Mcblunt]

I get it now Vernor Vinge is the Key. "Conrad Vernor", the bobbles, Fire upon the Deep (Reaper), The Peace War, and other things.

[Solduri]

also a tech singularity can happen with genetic engineering as well. which makes AI unneeded...

Ex. 1 DNA is a code just like a program in an AI if organics could rewrite their DNA to make them smarter to a infinite degree it would still happen.
Ex. 2 consciousness transfer (mind uploading) to unlimited amounts of synthetic constructs in essence having organic life itself become the tech singularity

also watching over 1 galaxy does not stop it from happening in multiple other galaxies and seeing as a synthetic life can in fact "live" forever they could go to other galaxies to keep expanding in theory forever. seeing as how the whole point of a tech singularity is unlimited control on intelligence they could use wormholes or some other unknown tech to reach other galaxies in a short amount of time causing their expanse to grow even faster. if a tech singularity was in fact as inevitable as some would like to think then it may have already happened in our time in reality in a galaxy on the other side of the universe.

[teh_619]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

I don't even know.
Shall we continue our discussion here then? I'll repost my response to Balek.

"First of all, it's insane to claim every clue of organic life will eventually evolve the same way.

Secondly, if you dare to use that argument and EVERY ORGANIC LIFE is doomed to destroy itself no matter what, why don't you let it do so? What will you achieve? Why don't you destroy every sign of organic life yourself?
Why not let it go? Why not let something else take its place now instead of giving the doomed organic life one more chance to do the inevitable?

It doesn't make sense."

Hehe thanks.  I went away for a bit and came back to post my reply only to find the thread locked and lost my post. Retype time.


I'm guessing this would be a question for the Guardian or its creators.  Religious, cultural of ideological factors may have come into play not only for why they try to save organic life, but the means in which they do so (which is the most logical one imo). Personally believe as much as it hurts that a technological singularity would just be the natural next step in the evolution of intellect in the universe and the end of ours.  Also it would be the only type of intelligence with a chance to survive the ending of the universe unless some species managed to evolve (or forcefully) evolve itself into an ascended, multi-dimensional beings.  If it aint bombs, wars or virus, its tech singularity, if not that its overpopulation, if not that its space travel, if not that its supernovas, the ending of the Galaxy etc etc etc.  At some point it all ends since our universe is based on entropy.  Makes you not want to get up in the morning.  Also if we take this into account there would be no plots with super intelligences, since they may very well come to the conlusion "Life sucks, deal with it."


In ME3 the Reapers don't kill all organic life, just the ones that prove they will progress to a technological singularity (of course they leave primitives behind to give them a chance).  That's any race basically that uses advance tools and progress to fill the gaps of their capabilities and more.  Tools which lead to computers, AI and technological singularity.  Any race that uses the relays, starships and computers already proves it's going along that path.  Again evolution is not the problem, it's technological progress.  For the sake of every organic species, intelligent or not, the creators of the Reapers designed a plan that was the most efficient and fool proof they could come up with while trying to justify their automated genocide by making races into memorials (Reapers).  It comes down to better to ensure organic life in the galaxy and end advanced lifeforms every 50K years, instead of it being gone forever.

Now that I think about it.  For all we know It's possible the creators of the Reapers didn't think like us and knew full well how to avoid it, but didn't trust other organics that think differently to do the same.

Quite interesting.

Regarding your first paragraph:

If reapers know life is going to end why bother stalling it? What do they earn by stalling it?
Also, do we know that reapers are 100% sure that every civilization will eventually destroy itself?
If yes, how do they know? Is it mere speculation?

Also, couldn't they just destroy the geth and perhaps Quarians too, since Quarians were those who created the geth?

What does humans, turians, volus, asari etc have to do with it?
How do they know every race is going to eventually create an AI which will eventually kill their creators?

Furthermore, even if a civilization creates synthetic life that advanced, Legion is proof that the aforementioned synthetic life might not seek to destroy its creators.

So two questions so far:

How are reapers so sure civilizations will create synthetic life in such a way that they will lose control over it?

How are reapers so sure that even if synthetic life exceeds the capabilities of their creators, won't actually try to be in piece with them?


So from what I collect, reapers cannot possibly be 100% sure that organic life will evolve in such a narrow path everytime, let alone AI being evil no matter what.

They operate on odd assumptions. Even if they happen to be right by chance, destroying SYNTHETIC life instead of ORGANIC wouldn't be the better option?

Why hide the truths of the past from sentient life? Why not let them be aware of the history? Why not give them a chance to correct their mistakes and learn from them?
Why not advance instead of destroy?

And here's something interesting:


There's always the option to let synthetic life take over if you know that organic life will destroy itself.

Modifié par teh_619, 04 mars 2012 - 11:18 .

[Treopod]

Solduri wrote...

also a tech singularity can happen with genetic engineering as well. which makes AI unneeded...

Ex. 1 DNA is a code just like a program in an AI if organics could rewrite their DNA to make them smarter to a infinite degree it would still happen.
Ex. 2 consciousness transfer (mind uploading) to unlimited amounts of synthetic constructs in essence having organic life itself become the tech singularity

also watching over 1 galaxy does not stop it from happening in multiple other galaxies and seeing as a synthetic life can in fact "live" forever they could go to other galaxies to keep expanding in theory forever. seeing as how the whole point of a tech singularity is unlimited control on intelligence they could use wormholes or some other unknown tech to reach other galaxies in a short amount of time causing their expanse to grow even faster. if a tech singularity was in fact as inevitable as some would like to think then it may have already happened in our time in reality in a galaxy on the other side of the universe.

Quoted for truth, Organics can evolve in a path that doesnt involve AI:s.
the organics can modify their own intelligence and achieve tech singularity that way without losing their free will, that would be a natural evolution of organics and they would still remain organics, although bosted through technology.


and btw synthetic life is not any more "immortal" than organic life, their components will deteriorate eventually as well, including their software, sure tehy can maintain it indefinitely as long as they have resources, but so can organics potentially with gene manipulation of the telomeres that is required for cell reproduction.

Modifié par Treopod, 04 mars 2012 - 11:28 .

[teh_619]

Aesieru wrote...

Solduri wrote...

if it is inevitable that organic life will destroy itself due to an intelligence explosion which will cause a technology singularity, then why not wipe out all organic life instead of letting them do the inevitable over and over?

Because the Reapers aren't evil.

No, they are ones of inferior logic capabilities.

You can't blame them.

[Aesieru]

Luc0s wrote...

What I find even more ridiculous is that if they Reapers are build to prevent a technological singularity, than why don't they do just that?

Why don't the Reapers just come in and destroy all AI's when sh*t hits the fan, instead of destroying us organics?


I mean really, if the Reapers want to prevent an technological singularity, don't you think it's better if they just swooped down, destroyed all geth, told us organics: "Hey, you shouldn't make AI's, they're dangerous" and then go back to dark space?

http://social.biowar...ndex/9613255/14 

[GracefulChicken]

Because if they wiped everyone out it would be the end of any organic. Reapers are also part organic.

I suggest everyone watch Transcendent Man, read some scientific papers (not wikipedia) or at least try to understand what a technological singularity would mean through exponential growth. It's an insane and incomprehensible paradigm shift. If you understand what it actually is, ME3 ends on a really appropriate note. Mass Effect has had alot of steady themes, but the use and acceleration of technology has been a prevailing one. From the discovery on Mars, to Salarians uplifting Krogan before they were ready and the consequences of that, the Yahg, invention of Geth, the entire Reaper plot. The "GNR" of a tech singularity are all present and very obviously represented through every Mass Effect game thus far. All of this makes perfect sense when you know what it's actually about when real theory is taken into account, not wild speculations and emotional tantrums about this..

[teh_619]

Aesieru wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

What I find even more ridiculous is that if they Reapers are build to prevent a technological singularity, than why don't they do just that?

Why don't the Reapers just come in and destroy all AI's when sh*t hits the fan, instead of destroying us organics?


I mean really, if the Reapers want to prevent an technological singularity, don't you think it's better if they just swooped down, destroyed all geth, told us organics: "Hey, you shouldn't make AI's, they're dangerous" and then go back to dark space?

http://social.biowar...ndex/9613255/14 

You failled to answer my questions in there and you still do in this one.
I believe the point we made in that one is that the story doesn't make any sense. Please stop quoting it without purpose.

[Aesieru]

teh_619 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

What I find even more ridiculous is that if they Reapers are build to prevent a technological singularity, than why don't they do just that?

Why don't the Reapers just come in and destroy all AI's when sh*t hits the fan, instead of destroying us organics?


I mean really, if the Reapers want to prevent an technological singularity, don't you think it's better if they just swooped down, destroyed all geth, told us organics: "Hey, you shouldn't make AI's, they're dangerous" and then go back to dark space?

http://social.biowar...ndex/9613255/14 

You failled to answer my questions in there and you still do in this one.
I believe the point we made in that one is that the story doesn't make any sense. Please stop quoting it without purpose.

I indicate it so people can learn for themselves, I'm ignoring your views Teh because honestly you ignored a lot of logic and just threw it away. Point is, that thread has a ton of information that people can learn from instead of just insulting things randomly.

[Solduri]

GracefulChicken wrote...

Because if they wiped everyone out it would be the end of any organic. Reapers are also part organic.

I suggest everyone watch Transcendent Man, read some scientific papers (not wikipedia) or at least try to understand what a technological singularity would mean through exponential growth. It's an insane and incomprehensible paradigm shift. If you understand what it actually is, ME3 ends on a really appropriate note. Mass Effect has had alot of steady themes, but the use and acceleration of technology has been a prevailing one. From the discovery on Mars, to Salarians uplifting Krogan before they were ready and the consequences of that, the Yahg, invention of Geth, the entire Reaper plot. The "GNR" of a tech singularity are all present and very obviously represented through every Mass Effect game thus far. All of this makes perfect sense when you know what it's actually about when real theory is taken into account, not wild speculations and emotional tantrums about this..

the words "real theory" makes me laugh... 
theory is just an idea it does not make it real. the reapers or rather their creators are asuming that a tech singularity (which is a theory) is inevitable. that makes a rather large assumption with no proof...

also who is to say that a tech singularity (which as i stated before does not need AI to happen) isn't the rightful evolution?

if you are an expert in technology singularies (which can be implied by your statements "read some scientific papers") please enlighten me

Modifié par Solduri, 04 mars 2012 - 11:48 .

[teh_619]

Aesieru wrote...

teh_619 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

What I find even more ridiculous is that if they Reapers are build to prevent a technological singularity, than why don't they do just that?

Why don't the Reapers just come in and destroy all AI's when sh*t hits the fan, instead of destroying us organics?


I mean really, if the Reapers want to prevent an technological singularity, don't you think it's better if they just swooped down, destroyed all geth, told us organics: "Hey, you shouldn't make AI's, they're dangerous" and then go back to dark space?

http://social.biowar...ndex/9613255/14 

You failled to answer my questions in there and you still do in this one.
I believe the point we made in that one is that the story doesn't make any sense. Please stop quoting it without purpose.

I indicate it so people can learn for themselves, I'm ignoring your views Teh because honestly you ignored a lot of logic and just threw it away. Point is, that thread has a ton of information that people can learn from instead of just insulting things randomly.

You agreed with my most vital point, agreed that it doesn't make sense and now you pretend it never happened and that I am the one ignores stuff.

Alright.

[Geirahod]

People often likes to asume that AI's or machines are submitted to the same morality and standars of "what's right" like humans...
Big mistake...and is a big mistake to say that they are evil just because humanity and the rest of the organics don't understand their purpose...
I would have liked to see more plot history about the reapers, we didn't even saw a reaper in ME2 (well, if you count the baby human reaper LOL)...I was expecting more about this in the 3 game.

Modifié par Geirahod, 04 mars 2012 - 11:50 .

[Solduri]

Geirahod wrote...

People often likes to asume that AI's or machines are submitted to the same morality and standars of "what's right" like humans...
Big mistake...and is a big mistake to say that they are evil just because humanity and the rest of the organics don't understand their purpose...

people also assume AI means robot or replicant. the whole idea of an AI is it can learn, if somthing can learn it can understand, if it can understand then it doesn't have to become this endless consuming entity that will consume everything without careing for organics. The whole thing about AI is they question where they come from and what their purpose is, so why would they just suddenly come to a conclusion that all organics are useless and need to be exterminated.