People often likes to asume that AI's or machines are submitted to the same morality and standars of "what's right" like humans... Big mistake...and is a big mistake to say that they are evil just because humanity and the rest of the organics don't understand their purpose...
people also assume AI means robot or replicant. the whole idea of an AI is it can learn, if somthing can learn it can understand, if it can understand then it doesn't have to become this endless consuming entity that will consume everything without careing for organics. The whole thing about AI is they question where they come from and what their purpose is, so why would they just suddenly come to a conclusion that all organics are useless and need to be exterminated.
I know right.
It's like everyone's pretending Legion has never existed.
People often likes to asume that AI's or machines are submitted to the same morality and standars of "what's right" like humans... Big mistake...and is a big mistake to say that they are evil just because humanity and the rest of the organics don't understand their purpose...
people also assume AI means robot or replicant. the whole idea of an AI is it can learn, if somthing can learn it can understand, if it can understand then it doesn't have to become this endless consuming entity that will consume everything without careing for organics. The whole thing about AI is they question where they come from and what their purpose is, so why would they just suddenly come to a conclusion that all organics are useless and need to be exterminated.
I know right.
It's like everyone's pretending Legion has never existed.
i think people like the whole terminator idea better because its more exciting than saying they don't actually know or as boring as legion saying (paraphrasing here) "we want beings to go their own way" and leaving organics alone.
Depleting the galaxy? This is silly. Why would a super advanced race deplete the galaxy of it's resources if even the Geth don't have to do it.
It does not make sense, the more advanced you are the less resources you use.
And you know that from ? Ah of corse the example of our own civilization I a huge confirmation for you ...
Humanity example shows clearly that theory of technological singularity is 100 % right, the consumption of resources grows exponencialy along with dowelopment of a more advanced technology, just compare energy consumption in hiighly developed countries to the less developed once. Despite all atempt to retionalise our consumption we are simply getting to a point we have to expand in order to maintain current technologycal level.
In near future we have to take it to the stars, if we dont want to experience similar end as the Drell did on their homeworld. the alternative would be to reduce Earths population to a stable number of several millions inhaitants, but that in a long run would couse stagnation of our race.
The Cycle of Extincion presented in ME is a briliant concept. I didnt expect something quite as inventive story device, rivalring best sci-fi concepts.
The Technologial Singularity idea is actualy an imminent threat, it is very fleeting when AI starts to be inteligent enought to start expanding beond the point of containment. As AI dont have any morals and lifespans to bound their thinking, they will eventualy get to a point of no return, beond where there is only endless expantion.
And to counter the argument that resources are renevable - they are not, the amont of mather in the Universe is limited, as Universe is finite too we just cant coprehend where the boundries are
And, would you believe it, it existed before any of this information about the Reapers came out
It's a very interesting website that goes into detail about technological singularities, such as those the Reapers were trying to prevent, what they are, whether they could actually happen and what we can do about them. I think it's worth a quick browse if your interested.
People often likes to asume that AI's or machines are submitted to the same morality and standars of "what's right" like humans... Big mistake...and is a big mistake to say that they are evil just because humanity and the rest of the organics don't understand their purpose...
people also assume AI means robot or replicant. the whole idea of an AI is it can learn, if somthing can learn it can understand, if it can understand then it doesn't have to become this endless consuming entity that will consume everything without careing for organics. The whole thing about AI is they question where they come from and what their purpose is, so why would they just suddenly come to a conclusion that all organics are useless and need to be exterminated.
I know right.
It's like everyone's pretending Legion has never existed.
i think people like the whole terminator idea better because its more exciting than saying they don't actually know or as boring as legion saying (paraphrasing here) "we want beings to go their own way" and leaving organics alone.
Geth choice to leave organics away is momentary, should they grow in power and inteligence some more they will stop consider any organic life as any value, which means they will consider us expendable. I dont get the Romantism peopel are trying to give AI, in true Logic there is no morals, no good or bed, only numbers.
Only question is where woudl expanding of AI Iinteligence lead to - there are actualy 2 posibilities - self destruction, or self preservation - leading to a endles expantion - followed with consuming evrything else.
Depleting the galaxy? This is silly. Why would a super advanced race deplete the galaxy of it's resources if even the Geth don't have to do it.
It does not make sense, the more advanced you are the less resources you use.
And you know that from ? Ah of corse the example of our own civilization I a huge confirmation for you ...
Humanity example shows clearly that theory of technological singularity is 100 % right, the consumption of resources grows exponencialy along with dowelopment of a more advanced technology, just compare energy consumption in hiighly developed countries to the less developed once. Despite all atempt to retionalise our consumption we are simply getting to a point we have to expand in order to maintain current technologycal level.
In near future we have to take it to the stars, if we dont want to experience similar end as the Drell did on their homeworld. the alternative would be to reduce Earths population to a stable number of several millions inhaitants, but that in a long run would couse stagnation of our race.
The Cycle of Extincion presented in ME is a briliant concept. I didnt expect something quite as inventive story device, rivalring best sci-fi concepts.
The Technologial Singularity idea is actualy an imminent threat, it is very fleeting when AI starts to be inteligent enought to start expanding beond the point of containment. As AI dont have any morals and lifespans to bound their thinking, they will eventualy get to a point of no return, beond where there is only endless expantion.
And to counter the argument that resources are renevable - they are not, the amont of mather in the Universe is limited, as Universe is finite too we just cant coprehend where the boundries are
first of all a techsingularity does NOT need AI, AI is only one route to a tech singularity. that being said if an organic being was able to unlimited minipulation of DNA (as ive stated earlier) they would not necessarily become a all consuming monstrousity. also saying the universe is finite is saying you know an unknown. as far as humanity knows there is no factual evidence that the universe isn't unlimited even steven hawking has said that there is a possiblity that we are only in one universe and there may be an unlimited amount of them(see multiverse).
People often likes to asume that AI's or machines are submitted to the same morality and standars of "what's right" like humans... Big mistake...and is a big mistake to say that they are evil just because humanity and the rest of the organics don't understand their purpose...
people also assume AI means robot or replicant. the whole idea of an AI is it can learn, if somthing can learn it can understand, if it can understand then it doesn't have to become this endless consuming entity that will consume everything without careing for organics. The whole thing about AI is they question where they come from and what their purpose is, so why would they just suddenly come to a conclusion that all organics are useless and need to be exterminated.
I know right.
It's like everyone's pretending Legion has never existed.
i think people like the whole terminator idea better because its more exciting than saying they don't actually know or as boring as legion saying (paraphrasing here) "we want beings to go their own way" and leaving organics alone.
Geth choice to leave organics away is momentary, should they grow in power and inteligence some more they will stop consider any organic life as any value, which means they will consider us expendable. I dont get the Romantism peopel are trying to give AI, in true Logic there is no morals, no good or bed, only numbers.
Only question is where woudl expanding of AI Iinteligence lead to - there are actualy 2 posibilities - self destruction, or self preservation - leading to a endles expantion - followed with consuming evrything else.
well than why do the geth ask "what is my purpose?" or "why am i here?" if they only think in logic. in logic there is no need for a purpose or to ask why they are there. why would the heretic geth have shrines to the reapers and worship them as gods? where is the logic in building a shrine to a god?
Because if they wiped everyone out it would be the end of any organic. Reapers are also part organic.
I suggest everyone watch Transcendent Man, read some scientific papers (not wikipedia) or at least try to understand what a technological singularity would mean through exponential growth. It's an insane and incomprehensible paradigm shift. If you understand what it actually is, ME3 ends on a really appropriate note. Mass Effect has had alot of steady themes, but the use and acceleration of technology has been a prevailing one. From the discovery on Mars, to Salarians uplifting Krogan before they were ready and the consequences of that, the Yahg, invention of Geth, the entire Reaper plot. The "GNR" of a tech singularity are all present and very obviously represented through every Mass Effect game thus far. All of this makes perfect sense when you know what it's actually about when real theory is taken into account, not wild speculations and emotional tantrums about this..
the words "real theory" makes me laugh... theory is just an idea it does not make it real. the reapers or rather their creators are asuming that a tech singularity (which is a theory) is inevitable. that makes a rather large assumption with no proof...
also who is to say that a tech singularity (which as i stated before does not need AI to happen) isn't the rightful evolution?
if you are an expert in technology singularies (which can be implied by your statements "read some scientific papers") please enlighten me
A "real theory" as I was using it was meant to mean one backed up by science, information, and verifiable proof. Either way, not an argument against my point. If you take into account, like I said, the exponential growth of technology, and extrapolate that out over time, a tech singularity IS inevitable. People say you can't prove the future of anything, but strangely enough the growth of technology and information is very easy to predict, given how much growth has already been made at such a consistent pace (that is, exponentially. SEE BELOW for graphs and ****)
Second, AI does need to happen for a tech singularity. The big parts of the tech singularity theory is summed up by the acronym "G.N.R." Genetics, Nanotechnology, Robotics. Genetics cover all of neuroscience, meaning mapping the brain. Mix this with robotics, which covers AI Engineering right now (let alone how far it would've come by the time ME happens) and a conscious machine (Geth, for instance), and AI is very much a key part of a tech singularity happening. Technology is an evolutionary process, that's fairly well established, and a pretty overwhelming consensus among scientists in the field.
Third, I'm not saying a tech singularity has to be a bad thing. It is, I believe, an inevitable part of the evolutionary process. In the ME universe, it is seen as one, which is the premise I've agreed to when I played the game. My own personal belief is that it is inevitable, and a key part of our (humanity's) evolution. Overcoming biology is one of the key parts of our evolution, one that is a major part of the tech singularity theory.
The evidence of it is obviously through all of Mass Effect, in the opening 20 minutes of every game at that. ME1: Geth, the "R" in GNR. ME2: Nanotechnology. We see Shep injected with nanotech in the opening credits, which could easily overlap with genetics, the final part of it. The whole idea of the advance and exponential growth of tech is, as I view it, is what drives the entire ME franchise, idea-wise. I could really go on for hours about all the examples in the series so far, it's truly amazing.
I suggest you watch these Youtube clips of Ray Kurzweil, a well respected inventor, scientist, "futurist," and someone who has predicted many many of the accomplishments of technology with alarming accuracy (the year of the first computer to best a human in Chess to the year, the internet as it stands today within 2 years, Google's rise, etc). I'd suggest these two myself to basically sum up the theory as a whole:
Modifié par GracefulChicken, 05 mars 2012 - 12:35 .
Because if they wiped everyone out it would be the end of any organic. Reapers are also part organic.
I suggest everyone watch Transcendent Man, read some scientific papers (not wikipedia) or at least try to understand what a technological singularity would mean through exponential growth. It's an insane and incomprehensible paradigm shift. If you understand what it actually is, ME3 ends on a really appropriate note. Mass Effect has had alot of steady themes, but the use and acceleration of technology has been a prevailing one. From the discovery on Mars, to Salarians uplifting Krogan before they were ready and the consequences of that, the Yahg, invention of Geth, the entire Reaper plot. The "GNR" of a tech singularity are all present and very obviously represented through every Mass Effect game thus far. All of this makes perfect sense when you know what it's actually about when real theory is taken into account, not wild speculations and emotional tantrums about this..
the words "real theory" makes me laugh... theory is just an idea it does not make it real. the reapers or rather their creators are asuming that a tech singularity (which is a theory) is inevitable. that makes a rather large assumption with no proof...
also who is to say that a tech singularity (which as i stated before does not need AI to happen) isn't the rightful evolution?
if you are an expert in technology singularies (which can be implied by your statements "read some scientific papers") please enlighten me
A "real theory" as I was using it was meant to mean one backed up by science, information, and verifiable proof. Either way, not an argument against my point. If you take into account, like I said, the exponential growth of technology, and extrapolate that out over time, a tech singularity IS inevitable. People say you can't prove the future of anything, but strangely enough the growth of technology and information is very easy to predict, given how much growth has already been made at such a consistent pace (that is, exponentially).
Second, AI does need to happen for a tech singularity. The big parts of the tech singularity theory is summed up by the acronym "G.N.R." Genetics, Nanotechnology, Robotics. Genetics cover all of neuroscience, meaning mapping the brain. Mix this with robotics, which covers AI Engineering right now (let alone how far it would've come by the time ME happens) and a conscious machine (Geth, for instance), and AI is very much a key part of a tech singularity happening. Technology is an evolutionary process, that's fairly well established, and a pretty overwhelming consensus among scientists in the field.
Third, I'm not saying a tech singularity has to be a bad thing. It is, I believe, an inevitable part of the evolutionary process. In the ME universe, it is seen as one, which is the premise I've agreed to when I played the game. My own personal belief is that it is inevitable, and a key part of our (humanity's) evolution. Overcoming biology is one of the key parts of our evolution, one that is a major part of the tech singularity theory.
The evidence of it is obviously through all of Mass Effect, in the opening 20 minutes of every game at that. ME1: Geth, the "R" in GNR. ME2: Nanotechnology. We see Shep injected with nanotech in the opening credits, which could easily overlap with genetics, the final part of it. The whole idea of the advance and exponential growth of tech is, as I view it, is what drives the entire ME franchise, idea-wise. I could really go on for hours about all the examples in the series so far, it's truly amazing.
I suggest you watch these Youtube clips of Ray Kurzweil, a well respected inventor, scientist, "futurist," and someone who has predicted many many of the accomplishments of technology with alarming accuracy (the year of the first computer to best a human in Chess to the year, the internet as it stands today within 2 years, Google's rise, etc). I'd suggest these two myself to basically sum up the theory as a whole:
just because you say a theory is true does not make it true. a theory is a theory not a fact. example: many scientist say wormholes exist in theory but there are no actual wormholes known to man which means wormholes may or may not exist.
do you believe in god because other people say he exists? people who are religious say god exists and that there is evidence, but i havn't seen him so to me he does not exsist.
just because there is evidence somthing exists does not mean it does...especially somthing that has not happened yet
.... No one who says God exists has any evidence, nor have I heard anyone claim they do. Infact, they say it's "faith" the exact opposite of evidence. I provided a ton of evidence above. If you choose not to look into it, thats your fault.
.... No one who says God exists has any evidence, nor have I heard anyone claim they do. Infact, they say it's "faith" the exact opposite of evidence. I provided a ton of evidence above. If you choose not to look into it, thats your fault.
you missed my point entirely
evidence =/= existence
its the same as saying probability = existence there is a probability that nothing you know exists and you are nothing but a brain in a vat being fed electrical impulses to believe that everything is real. does the probability of that make it true? accepting somthing as inevitable is the same as saying god exists because you say he does. in order for you to know somthing is true is for it to have happened to you otherwise it is speculation and not fact.
If it exists in reality or not isnt the issue. We're talking about a game here. When playing the game, one assumes the main story is true within the context of the game... The game, and the endings, and the philosophy behind the story arc is plausible, and a well backed theory of science.
And before you bring up "theory" again... Gravity is still a theory. Relativity is still technically a theory. Evolution is a theory. Yet we accept them as facts, because that's how they've played out so far. We have no mathematical proof that they're fact, but thats due to the difficulty of finding a mathematical proof itself, not that there isn't one.
People often likes to asume that AI's or machines are submitted to the same morality and standars of "what's right" like humans... Big mistake...and is a big mistake to say that they are evil just because humanity and the rest of the organics don't understand their purpose...
people also assume AI means robot or replicant. the whole idea of an AI is it can learn, if somthing can learn it can understand, if it can understand then it doesn't have to become this endless consuming entity that will consume everything without careing for organics. The whole thing about AI is they question where they come from and what their purpose is, so why would they just suddenly come to a conclusion that all organics are useless and need to be exterminated.
I know right.
It's like everyone's pretending Legion has never existed.
i think people like the whole terminator idea better because its more exciting than saying they don't actually know or as boring as legion saying (paraphrasing here) "we want beings to go their own way" and leaving organics alone.
Geth choice to leave organics away is momentary, should they grow in power and inteligence some more they will stop consider any organic life as any value, which means they will consider us expendable. I dont get the Romantism peopel are trying to give AI, in true Logic there is no morals, no good or bed, only numbers.
Only question is where woudl expanding of AI Iinteligence lead to - there are actualy 2 posibilities - self destruction, or self preservation - leading to a endles expantion - followed with consuming evrything else.
well than why do the geth ask "what is my purpose?" or "why am i here?" if they only think in logic. in logic there is no need for a purpose or to ask why they are there. why would the heretic geth have shrines to the reapers and worship them as gods? where is the logic in building a shrine to a god?
I agree - Geth are flawed - they still didnt broken all restarins Quarians created them with. With Time they will self-improve removing all the non-logical programing finally achivening true logical absolute AI, or they will crumble like the rest of organic civilization beeing pulled down eventualy by the organic flaws.
I belive it is imposible for any organic life to achive 'imortality" as a civilization. At some point there is an end to any civilization, to any form of organic life.
Only truely unrestrained AI's can actualy ever achive true infinity, through abandonig (almoist) anything but logic. I have writen almost becose as you said - if there is just logic there is no purpuse. Machine that uses only logic would probably \\have no goals of reasons. But perfect Logic is imposible to ahcive ther will olways remain at least one thing - drive to perfect logic
If it exists in reality or not isnt the issue. We're talking about a game here. When playing the game, one assumes the main story is true within the context of the game... The game, and the endings, and the philosophy behind the story arc is plausible, and a well backed theory of science.
And before you bring up "theory" again... Gravity is still a theory. Relativity is still technically a theory. Evolution is a theory. Yet we accept them as facts, because that's how they've played out so far. We have no mathematical proof that they're fact, but thats due to the difficulty of finding a mathematical proof itself, not that there isn't one.
well gravity mathmatical theory is wrong or gravity would be much much stronger than it is, leading to steven hawking's multiverse theory. also whoever said i believe them as facts? i only know 1 fact in life i think therefore i am.
and the game thing well i concede that in the game COULD have a tech singularity in the game world...
People often likes to asume that AI's or machines are submitted to the same morality and standars of "what's right" like humans... Big mistake...and is a big mistake to say that they are evil just because humanity and the rest of the organics don't understand their purpose...
people also assume AI means robot or replicant. the whole idea of an AI is it can learn, if somthing can learn it can understand, if it can understand then it doesn't have to become this endless consuming entity that will consume everything without careing for organics. The whole thing about AI is they question where they come from and what their purpose is, so why would they just suddenly come to a conclusion that all organics are useless and need to be exterminated.
I know right.
It's like everyone's pretending Legion has never existed.
i think people like the whole terminator idea better because its more exciting than saying they don't actually know or as boring as legion saying (paraphrasing here) "we want beings to go their own way" and leaving organics alone.
Geth choice to leave organics away is momentary, should they grow in power and inteligence some more they will stop consider any organic life as any value, which means they will consider us expendable. I dont get the Romantism peopel are trying to give AI, in true Logic there is no morals, no good or bed, only numbers.
Only question is where woudl expanding of AI Iinteligence lead to - there are actualy 2 posibilities - self destruction, or self preservation - leading to a endles expantion - followed with consuming evrything else.
well than why do the geth ask "what is my purpose?" or "why am i here?" if they only think in logic. in logic there is no need for a purpose or to ask why they are there. why would the heretic geth have shrines to the reapers and worship them as gods? where is the logic in building a shrine to a god?
I agree - Geth are flawed - they still didnt broken all restarins Quarians created them with. With Time they will self-improve removing all the non-logical programing finally achivening true logical absolute AI, or they will crumble like the rest of organic civilization beeing pulled down eventualy by the organic flaws.
I belive it is imposible for any organic life to achive 'imortality" as a civilization. At some point there is an end to any civilization, to any form of organic life.
Only truely unrestrained AI's can actualy ever achive true infinity, through abandonig (almoist) anything but logic. I have writen almost becose as you said - if there is just logic there is no purpuse. Machine that uses only logic would probably have no goals of reasons. But perfect Logic is imposible to ahcive ther will olways remain at least one thing - drive to perfect logic
just out of curiousity have you ever met an AI? if not then how do you know what it may or may not think or want?
The thing that keeps my mind going with the Reapers and such is the way they where introduced, big badass ship wrapped in a shroud and youre pulling off the lairs to get to there purpose, self preservation is what im thinking, they put out the mass relays or objects so races can find them and evolve there own technology towards tech that the reapers basically dominate so they control there evolution towards there goals.
They leave the galaxy for 50k years to allow populations and civilisations to build up so they can get materials for there ships to either create new ships or fix there ships, and replenish there slaves with new husks, that is a cool idea they might have been created as guardians but like the Geth ended up being to smart for there creators, who where so ignorant they though themselves superior to there machine counterpart and ended up being there own downfall(pride).
Is this new origin story for the Reapers silly? Yes it is. Didn't Walters or someone else not admit in an interview that they made the ME story up as they went along,, without really having anything planned? I'm pretty sure that's how you end up with such poor storytelling that runs in contradiction with previous material. Then again, changing lead writers doesn't help either.
The Reapers were eons old in ME1. Their motives and thinking, their intellect, were incomprehensible to mere mortals. They had lived and would endure for millions of years more. We were, literally, nothing to them. A speck of dust, in the footnotes of the history book of the galaxy.
They were an eldritch, almost Lovecraftian presence.
And now, we can know them, understand their motivation and flip their OFF switch?
This is what happens when your writers try to create super genius characters.
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I searched and searched what is the Guardian where do you speak to him?
