1306 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

While DAO is fairly well put together looking at it objectively its nowhere near as good as it should have been considering it was 4yrs in development its playable but DA2 is just alot more fun to play. because in the case of DAO the story may be a good one even if it is very generic but alas the poor combat mechanics especially the very sedate pace of the combat really lets the side down for DAO.

I have found during my time on the forums that what one of the previous posters rings true DA2's flaws were all present and accounted for in DAO also but alas most fans remain blinded to them by there passion for the game resulting in a culture of "double standards" by criticizing the 2nd game for flaws while remaining blatently oblivious to those same faults that appear in the 1st game.

However its can be also said that fans of both games can be OTT when it comes to slinging mud at one another, hopefully this will stop because otherwise with the new BSN policy the forum will become a very silent place.

Just to clarify I do heartedly enjoy DAO its a enjoyable however I find DA2 to be more enjoyable on the whole

A game sequel should address the flaws of the predecessor, not keep them and add more. 

If DA:O and DA2 share any flaws, they're more glaring in DA2 because they were not addressed, and exist in addition to the flaws that are new in DA2. 

[zyntifox]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

While DAO is fairly well put together looking at it objectively its nowhere near as good as it should have been considering it was 4yrs in development its playable but DA2 is just alot more fun to play. because in the case of DAO the story may be a good one even if it is very generic but alas the poor combat mechanics especially the very sedate pace of the combat really lets the side down for DAO.

I have found during my time on the forums that what one of the previous posters rings true DA2's flaws were all present and accounted for in DAO also but alas most fans remain blinded to them by there passion for the game resulting in a culture of "double standards" by criticizing the 2nd game for flaws while remaining blatently oblivious to those same faults that appear in the 1st game.

However its can be also said that fans of both games can be OTT when it comes to slinging mud at one another, hopefully this will stop because otherwise with the new BSN policy the forum will become a very silent place.

Just to clarify I do heartedly enjoy DAO its a enjoyable however I find DA2 to be more enjoyable on the whole

Now this i certainly don't agree with. It might be because i am no "true" gamer, the last game i played before Dragon age: origins and Dragon age 2 was neverwinter nights back in 2003, but i just don't have the reflexes for faster paced combat than origins. And besides that, i thought it made the combat look more realistic and that made each encounter more exciting for me. Now faster paced combat may be more exciting for other players, it's just not my cup of tea.

Modifié par Cstaf, 08 mars 2012 - 04:21 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Cstaf wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

While DAO is fairly well put together looking at it objectively its nowhere near as good as it should have been considering it was 4yrs in development its playable but DA2 is just alot more fun to play. because in the case of DAO the story may be a good one even if it is very generic but alas the poor combat mechanics especially the very sedate pace of the combat really lets the side down for DAO.

I have found during my time on the forums that what one of the previous posters rings true DA2's flaws were all present and accounted for in DAO also but alas most fans remain blinded to them by there passion for the game resulting in a culture of "double standards" by criticizing the 2nd game for flaws while remaining blatently oblivious to those same faults that appear in the 1st game.

However its can be also said that fans of both games can be OTT when it comes to slinging mud at one another, hopefully this will stop because otherwise with the new BSN policy the forum will become a very silent place.

Just to clarify I do heartedly enjoy DAO its a enjoyable however I find DA2 to be more enjoyable on the whole

Now this i certainly don't agree with. It might be because i am no "true" gamer, the last game i played before Dragon age: origins and Dragon age 2 was neverwinter nights back in 2003, but i just don't have the reflexes for faster paced combat than origins. And besides that, i thought it made the combat look more realistic and that made each encounter more exciting for me. Now faster paced combat may be more exciting for other players, it's just not my cup of tea.

Too many people out there who think real melee combat was like 300...  so they think DA:O was too slow and DA2 was "right".

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 08 mars 2012 - 04:32 .

[Pasquale1234]

Cstaf wrote...
Now this i certainly don't agree with. It might be because i am no "true" gamer, the last game i played before Dragon age: origins and Dragon age 2 was neverwinter nights back in 2003, but i just don't have the reflexes for faster paced combat than origins. And besides that, i thought it made the combat look more realistic and that made each encounter more exciting for me. Now faster paced combat may be more exciting for other players, it's just not my cup of tea.

One of the features of many RPGs that I've always enjoyed is the idea that the character's skills do not depend on the player's skills.  Although that has not been the case in either DA game, I also prefer the combat of DAO.  I would love it if they could implement a slider to allow us to adjust the speed of combat to our individual liking, but I don't expect that will be implemented.

[Sylvius the Mad]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

While DAO is fairly well put together looking at it objectively its nowhere near as good as it should have been considering it was 4yrs in development its playable but DA2 is just alot more fun to play. because in the case of DAO the story may be a good one even if it is very generic but alas the poor combat mechanics especially the very sedate pace of the combat really lets the side down for DAO.

I think the pacing of DAO's combat is terrific.  That's pretty much exactly the speed I want.

As for the mechanics, how were DA2's any better?  DA2's combat mechanics make no sense at all within the setting, they're grossly asymmetrical, and its enforcement of combat roles by class is needlessly restrictive.  Even the talent trees, while a nice idea, were too restrictive in the order in which abilities could be learned (though I found they improved considerably when I modded out the level requirements).

I have found during my time on the forums that what one of the previous posters rings true DA2's flaws were all present and accounted for in DAO also but alas most fans remain blinded to them by there passion for the game resulting in a culture of "double standards" by criticizing the 2nd game for flaws while remaining blatently oblivious to those same faults that appear in the 1st game.

Except that's just not true.  DAO didn't limit our ability to equip our companions.  DAO didn't enforce combat roles by class.  DAO didn't voice the PC or use that obfuscatory paraphrase system.  DAO didn't routinely prevent us from ever initiating combat.  Seriously, try to ambush an opponent in DA2.  Try to strike him (with anything) before he knows you're there.  DAO would let you sneak up to an opponent and backstab him, or you could cast AoE spells like Blzzard or Inferno from afar before combat even began.

As for failings they share, I can't think of any significant.  Sure, they both have lousy inventory systems.  They both have fairly shallow crafting systems, though I prefer DAO's because it requires more effort on the part of the player.  And DAO's a lot easier to mod, so its problems are easier to fix..

To what shared failings were you referring?

Just to clarify I do heartedly enjoy DAO its a enjoyable however I find DA2 to be more enjoyable on the whole

I think DAO was a truly great game, while DA2 was one of my least enjoyable games of the past 10 years (really - bottom 3).

[bEVEsthda]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Too many people out there who think real melee combat was like 300...  so they think DA:O was too slow and DA2 was "right".

If you had said Transformers I would have understood you. No, the melee combat in 300 was waayy slower and muuch more realistic than in DA2.

[HanErlik]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Too many people out there who think real melee combat was like 300...  so they think DA:O was too slow and DA2 was "right".

If you had said Transformers I would have understood you. No, the melee combat in 300 was waayy slower and muuch more realistic than in DA2.

And while 300 was being artistic and "cool", DA2 was just clownish.

[Morroian]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Too many people out there who think real melee combat was like 300...  so they think DA:O was too slow and DA2 was "right".

Don't think you'll find many claiming that the DA2 combat was more realistic than DAO.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Morroian wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Too many people out there who think real melee combat was like 300...  so they think DA:O was too slow and DA2 was "right".

Don't think you'll find many claiming that the DA2 combat was more realistic than DAO.

They're about.  They posted many videos of sword demonstrations showing that 2-handed swords in competition are much faster than DAO's swords.

Of course, those demonstrations were not done in heavy armour, nor were those swords anywhere near as large as those found in either DA game.

[Wulfram]

The speed of DA:O's two handed auto-attacks was stupidly slow. Maybe appropriate to the size of the weapons, but then that just highlights why those weapons would never be used in actual combat, which is a good thing. You could speed up things by timing when you activated talents, but that meant neglecting the rest of your party.
Ideally, I'd rather see some sort of middle ground, but I would count DA2 as an improvement for the two handed just because it's stupid in a more entertaining way. If you took down the speed just a notch and added a bit more sense of weight - have the sword speed up and slow down during a stroke - then it would be pretty

DA:O Dual wielding was much better than DA2. DA:O Archery talents took stupidly long to fire and I'm glad DA2 fixed this, though DA2's archery could have done with less pointless jumping. Sword and shield I was OK with both of them - maybe I'll give the edge to DA:O because I liked Sheild Bash and Shield Pummel.

Modifié par Wulfram, 08 mars 2012 - 10:49 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

nor were those swords anywhere near as large as those found in either DA game.

I think that's the main thing. Armor generally doesn't slow people down too much (that would defeat the point of wearing it to a fight) but the weapons in Dragon Age suffer seriously from RPG Weapon Over-Design Syndrome. It's a consequence of the artists trying to make every weapon a unique snowflake and forgetting about making them look like things that could conceivably be used to hurt someone with.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wulfram wrote...

You could speed up things by timing when you activated talents, but that meant neglecting the rest of your party.

With obsessive pausing, you could micromanage your whole party like that.

And micromanaging the whole party is something I enjoy, so DAO's speed worked really well for me.

And timing became even more important in DA2 because of the uninterruptable animations.  If you didn't trigger an ability in time, you would lose proportionally large sections of the encounter to waiting for that animation.

Ideally, I'd rather see some sort of middle ground

A good middle ground, I think, would be to keep all of the magic and 1-handed weapons the same as DAO, but seepd up the 2H weapons to be about as fast as the 1H weapons.  After all, the cost of using a 2H weapon already exists in the form of a lower armour score (no shield).

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

nor were those swords anywhere near as large as those found in either DA game.

I think that's the main thing. Armor generally doesn't slow people down too much (that would defeat the point of wearing it to a fight)

But it does severely impact endurance.  That's why I miss the fatigue mechanic from DAO.

[jbrand2002uk]

Well the main shared flaw between the 2 games that really bugs me is the railroaded story mainly the enforcement of becoming a grey warden much likes Hawke is steered into becoming(spoiler)though.

Granted DAO does hide it better by giving small variations based on your Origin selection but its merely a few paltry lines of dialogue that change the main thing that irked me about the combat in DAO was the speed as i mentioned but to be more specific I'm refering to the speed of the rogue class which felt a lot slower than they should be DA2 may have gone overkill with the speed and the backflipping ninjaitis but it was a step in the right direction.

One area DA2 definatley made an improvement at least on PC( which i play both games on) was the stabillity of the game playing either with or without a trainer DAO even after 5 patches is very crash prone.

While many find DA2's talent tree restrictive I found it more useable than DAO's even though I too find it somewhat restrictive, so i do hope that overall they will be able to cobble together some kind of a hybrid between DAO and DA2 and I'm certainly in favour of the idea one of the other posters mentioned of a slider/toggle for many of the functions so each user can alter the game in line with their preferances

[Sylvius the Mad]

Neither one of those really bothers me. It's the process of gameplay that bothers me in DA2, and DAO doesn't fail in the same ways.

[Anomaly-]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Well the main shared flaw between the 2 games that really bugs me is the railroaded story mainly the enforcement of becoming a grey warden much likes Hawke is steered into becoming(spoiler)though.

That's pretty much true, but I find it more forgivable in DA:O's case beacuse 95% of the time my character does what I want him/her to do.

Granted DAO does hide it better by giving small variations based on your Origin selection but its merely a few paltry lines of dialogue that change

Disagree. The origins allowed for much more freedom in character background and motivations. Something the game, thankfully (for the most part), didn't try to define for you through dialogue.

the main thing that irked me about the combat in DAO was the speed as i mentioned but to be more specific I'm refering to the speed of the rogue class which felt a lot slower than they should be DA2 may have gone overkill with the speed and the backflipping ninjaitis but it was a step in the right direction.

I wouldn't mind if the combat, particularly for the Rogue style, was sped up just a tad from DA:O. However, DA2's was much too fast, and it was mainly the gameplay mechanics that made the combat much less appealing to me in DA2.

I always use this example. I had a plan when I was developing my Rogue, to focus as much on offensive spike damage as possible, while sacrificing base damage and defense. I like to use this playstyle to take out soft targets as quickly as possible. So my plan was to focus on Cunning to boost critical damage and offensive skills, while sacrificing defense and lower, more consistent damage. I figured I could make up the deficit of foregoing Dexterity by picking up the skill that grants 100% crit chance while flanking, thinking I would enjoy making use of using positioning for tactical advantage. That skill, btw, already makes the other two similar ones involving stunned opponent and being in stealth obsolete. Unfortunately, I quickly discovered that to do any damage at all required heavy investment in Dexterity to actually use higher quality weapons (something that makes no sense), and that investment, coupled with the fact that you always get the same stats on items (which includes + crit chance), made my tactical skill choices obsolete as I was approaching 90% crit rate toward the end of the game, and my intended playstyle unviable. Not to mention, defense was curiously tied in with Cunning as well, so I had no choice but to boost it.

I quickly lost a lot of my interest in the game when I realized how little flexibility I had in the way I build my character. I felt like the gameplay and character progression railroaded me every bit as much as the story, and the game fought me anytime I tried to do anything to make my character less generic. As someone who plays a Rogue, I was immensely disappointed by the above mentioned shortcomings, the uselesness of stealth, absence of traps/pets and gutting of crafting skills. That's not even mentioning the arbitrary item restrictions, shallowness of itemization and inability to equip companions. Having so fewer options in my character's approach/function in combat, the combat became much less interesting to me. No amount of pacing refinement will remedy that, even if they bring it back down closer to DA:O's pace.

One area DA2 definatley made an improvement at least on PC( which i play both games on) was the stabillity of the game playing either with or without a trainer DAO even after 5 patches is very crash prone.

Disagree again. I also play on PC, and while DA:O did crash on me once, it was my own doing. DA2, on the other hand, crashed on me every single time a blood mage would use whatever that spell was that would cause an exploding noise. I literally had to use the console to kill all blood mages before they could cast it in order to progress through the game. DA2's stability being an improvement is definitely subject to debate.

While many find DA2's talent tree restrictive I found it more useable than DAO's even though I too find it somewhat restrictive, so i do hope that overall they will be able to cobble together some kind of a hybrid between DAO and DA2 and I'm certainly in favour of the idea one of the other posters mentioned of a slider/toggle for many of the functions so each user can alter the game in line with their preferances

I disliked DA2's design for reasons I noted above, but the one thing I did take as a positive was skill upgrades. I just wished there were more of them, and that the rest of the design wasn't so disappointing to me.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 09 mars 2012 - 01:33 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

The difference is, in DA:O, the ending is something your character is working towards -- stopping the blight -- as opposed to something your character is most likely trying to prevent, but can't. In the former, you're one of the prime movers of the story. In the latter, you're along for the ride. There's no stopping the Meredith / Orsino conflict, no stopping Anders, no stopping anything...

[Dr. Freud]

Bioware will continue to follow it's wallet as it always has. DA2 was a flop so the next one will have to be different in some way. Hopefully they don't think that they can get better sales by dumbing down the franchise even more.

[sreaction]

Dr. Freud, I just you to know that your transference hypothesis is, "a completely unwarranted intellectual construct" (Seguin 1965 p.vii).

Modifié par sreaction, 09 mars 2012 - 08:02 .

[Gotholhorakh]

CrustyBot wrote...
Exactly, the reason DA 2 sold poorly wasn't because of DA 2, it was all DA:O's fault. That's why all of the feedback for DA 2 was positive (except for trolls from 4chan and RPG Codex of course).

DA 2 didn't sell much because Origins was such a bad game.

CrustyBot wrote...

They're jumping on the bandwagon of
disgruntled fans who were upset that they couldn't shag Morrigan or play
the Warden in Dragon Age 2. These fans, mostly trolls from 4chan and
RPG Codex, went on a vendetta to poison public opinion of Dragon Age 2.

As previously proven, people didn't like Origins
and that's why DA 2's sales were so low in comparison to Dragon Age:
Origins.

 Oh come on, now you're just being obvious.

I hope the notion that everyone who disliked the game is labelled a "troll" is considered as objectionable around here as people who liked it being labelled a "drone".

In fact... *exits thread that looks like it will become a bonfire*

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 09 mars 2012 - 10:43 .

[Fast Jimmy]

sreaction wrote...



Dr. Freud, I just you to know that your transference hypothesis is, "a completely unwarranted intellectual construct" (Seguin 1965 p.vii).

I'm not sure that date is correct. Dr. Edourd Seguin died in 1880.

Is there an Achievement for being involved in the first scholastic psychology derailment of a thread?



Also... In response to what Freud said, Bioware will follow their wallet. The question is - where do they think their wallet is? For DA2, they thought their wallet was in the watered down RPG and action mechanics arena, but they fell on their faces. Skyrim showed them that there was a wallet in the old school RPG mechanics, number crunching and level grinding arena. DAO showed them there is a wallet for telling a great story in the confines of giving a ton of player choice. Final Fantasy showed that there is becoming a smaller and smaller wallet for linear, non-branching, cinematic story telling.

Will they follow the wallet they think is going to magically appear, with the DA2 approach? Will they follow a different wallet in Skyrim? Will they go back to the old wallet they had with DAO? Or will they turn the series into a JRPG in order to tell the story they want to tell, and pay the price in their pocket book for it?

[zyntifox]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

sreaction wrote...



Dr. Freud, I just you to know that your transference hypothesis is, "a completely unwarranted intellectual construct" (Seguin 1965 p.vii).

I'm not sure that date is correct. Dr. Edourd Seguin died in 1880.

Is there an Achievement for being involved in the first scholastic psychology derailment of a thread?



Also... In response to what Freud said, Bioware will follow their wallet. The question is - where do they think their wallet is? For DA2, they thought their wallet was in the watered down RPG and action mechanics arena, but they fell on their faces. Skyrim showed them that there was a wallet in the old school RPG mechanics, number crunching and level grinding arena. DAO showed them there is a wallet for telling a great story in the confines of giving a ton of player choice. Final Fantasy showed that there is becoming a smaller and smaller wallet for linear, non-branching, cinematic story telling.

Will they follow the wallet they think is going to magically appear, with the DA2 approach? Will they follow a different wallet in Skyrim? Will they go back to the old wallet they had with DAO? Or will they turn the series into a JRPG in order to tell the story they want to tell, and pay the price in their pocket book for it?

The thing i fear Fast Jimmy is that they'll draw the conclussion that all that was wrong with DA2 was things like map-recycling and enemy waves. Now, in my mind those two were part of the problem but not really the game-breakers.

[Fast Jimmy]

Cstaf wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

sreaction wrote...



Dr. Freud, I just you to know that your transference hypothesis is, "a completely unwarranted intellectual construct" (Seguin 1965 p.vii).

I'm not sure that date is correct. Dr. Edourd Seguin died in 1880.

Is there an Achievement for being involved in the first scholastic psychology derailment of a thread?



Also... In response to what Freud said, Bioware will follow their wallet. The question is - where do they think their wallet is? For DA2, they thought their wallet was in the watered down RPG and action mechanics arena, but they fell on their faces. Skyrim showed them that there was a wallet in the old school RPG mechanics, number crunching and level grinding arena. DAO showed them there is a wallet for telling a great story in the confines of giving a ton of player choice. Final Fantasy showed that there is becoming a smaller and smaller wallet for linear, non-branching, cinematic story telling.

Will they follow the wallet they think is going to magically appear, with the DA2 approach? Will they follow a different wallet in Skyrim? Will they go back to the old wallet they had with DAO? Or will they turn the series into a JRPG in order to tell the story they want to tell, and pay the price in their pocket book for it?

The thing i fear Fast Jimmy is that they'll draw the conclussion that all that was wrong with DA2 was things like map-recycling and enemy waves. Now, in my mind those two were part of the problem but not really the game-breakers.

Agreed. I honestly think that after the vanguard change of leadership between DAO and DA2, that a lot of people in charge either never liked the games Bioware used to make, or have fallen out of love with them. Because they seem to be trying to move in every direction but the one they are known for.

The reason I loved games like DAO and BG was that you could try to do things, crazy things just to have fun, and find content behind those actions. Not just a dungeon full of killable enemies like in Skyrim, but some real dialgoue, an actual tumbling down the rabbit hole, sometimes. This is good narrative, to make someone feel like there is a story behind every choice.

I think this has been twisted by Bioware to say "we make good stories." So they are moving into the interactive cinematics route.

I think the beauty behind previous Bioware games was that, depending on your choices, you could still get a good story. A story that could be very different if you made different choices.

That's the beauty of games. It trounces book, movies and any other form of media in story telling because it can be any book or movie you want it to be (or, at least, that the developers let it be). Skyrim gives you inifinte choice, but little consequence. FF gives you plenty of story, but very little choice. Bioware had found the perfect balance in their games, letting you role play the character you want, make choices the way you wanted, feel a solid and fluid story... then to go back again, make different choices and see how the world reacts to all of that.

In DA2, you have very little of this. Encounters end the same way almost every time. The ending is the same, with one line of dialogue difference. You have some impact on your companions, but Bioware needs to take their own advice - the story of DA is not about one character, its about the world. People see that and think "oh, yeah, a new PC every time." That's not all it means. We should have meaningful choices to impact the world, not just the characters we surround ourselves with. DA2 became more, to me at least, about your companions than about the world. Their side dialogue, the Friendship/Rivalry responses, their varying Romance discussions... they built the game about interacting with virtual friends, not about being a hero, let alone "Rising to Power... by any means neccessary."

If I want a virtual friend, I'll go play a dating sim. I'm buying an RPG from Bioware for the godo story, the amazing world, but most of all? The well-written choices. So follow my wallet, Bioware. It will be right here waiting when you all realize you all should go back to doing what you all do best.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...
Exactly, the reason DA 2 sold poorly wasn't because of DA 2, it was all DA:O's fault. That's why all of the feedback for DA 2 was positive (except for trolls from 4chan and RPG Codex of course).

DA 2 didn't sell much because Origins was such a bad game.

CrustyBot wrote...

They're jumping on the bandwagon of
disgruntled fans who were upset that they couldn't shag Morrigan or play
the Warden in Dragon Age 2. These fans, mostly trolls from 4chan and
RPG Codex, went on a vendetta to poison public opinion of Dragon Age 2.

As previously proven, people didn't like Origins
and that's why DA 2's sales were so low in comparison to Dragon Age:
Origins.

 Oh come on, now you're just being obvious.

I hope the notion that everyone who disliked the game is labelled a "troll" is considered as objectionable around here as people who liked it being labelled a "drone".

In fact... *exits thread that looks like it will become a bonfire*

Yeah, obviouos troll is obvious, as the joke goes.

Too bad being a blatant troll is fine on BSN, but the language filter censors "bio-drone" if it's one word.  

[Seekirus]

When you press a button something awesome has to happen, button awesome!! It's all connected in DA2 now