1306 réponses à ce sujet

[Uccio]

DA2 went in the wrong direction. I did not buy Mass Effect 3 and I sure as h*ll will not buy Dragon Effect 3.

Modifié par Ukki, 13 mars 2012 - 02:50 .

[katiebour]

batlin wrote...

Like Ostagar? Like the Archdemon? Like the fate of the dwarves? The anvil of the void? There's a great deal of things the warden can't control if you paid attention to the epilogue.

Yes, but with the Archdemon you could A) sacrifice yourself sacrifice Alistair C) perform the Dark Ritual.  With the dwarves you could A) support Harrowmont or support Bhelin.  With the Anvil of the Void you can destroy it and side with Caradin or keep it.  I think Ostagar was one of the few points where you acted but had no actual choice as to how it was resolved.

I know a lot of Origins players felt cheated that DAII contained so many instances of utter lack of choice.  You can't stop the Qunari from attacking.  You can't keep your sibling.  You can't stop Anders.  You could try, and maybe in that first playthrough you'd think that you could, in fact, save your sibling or save Kirkwall or save Anders from himself right up until you realized that you COULDN'T, which made the fallout all the more heartbreaking.  I liked that.

For me DAII was a kiddie pool 20 feet deep- small, focused, and full of story.  Most of that story is wrapped up in our companions and their skewed and biased viewpoints- for example, from Fenris we get an examination of Tevinter, and how to traverse the wide distance from abused slave to free man.  From Anders we get a very painful and personal look into what it means to be a mage and second-class citizen of the world.  From Merrill we get a first-hand account of the tightrope she walks with blood magic, the desire to bring back the glory of the Dalish and to help the elves regain pride in themselves, etc.  Sebastian gives us the best face of the Chantry and its views.  And all of these stories conflict beautifully- Anders and Fenris hate each other because of their conflict regarding mages.  Anders and Merrill conflict over blood magic.  Sebastian and Aveline clash over class and religion- Isabela and Aveline give us the best rivalmance in game over what it means to be a strong woman in a man's world.  All of these characters are woven together like a beautiful, complex tapestry that is a microcosm of the world in which they live.

Frankly I'm stumped about how any of these characters are any more deep or complex than those in Origins. Fenris? He has single-minded hatred toward mages despite clear evidence that Tevinter mages are not like all mages, and he has several years to figure out this very obvious fact. Anders was actually dumbed-down from his appearance in Awakenings. In Awakenings he's still a troubled person with a lot of concern with the well-being of mages, but he isn't single-minded in his problems with the Chantry (as he understands that they are well-meaning) and hides his troubles with humor. DA2 took his character and made him a one-dimensional anti-chantry activist/terrorist. And before you judge his actions on his being merged with Justice, what he did to the Chantry in act 3 was most certainly not justice. Not all within the chantry are responsible for the actions of it, same as all of Germany isn't responsible for the actions of the ****s. Merril's actions too are illogical; you would have to be REALLY stupid in the Dragon Age universe to think that demons can be trusted in the least. and Merril, who had supposedly been trained her life to be a Keeper, the highest rank in Dalish society, should in no way think those actions were justified, no matter how naive she is. Last but not least, I see no way in which Aveline or Isabela are any stronger than Morrigan, Wynne or Leliana in a man's world. I'm not saying that you're wrong for liking DA2's characters more than DA:O's, it seems like in making comparisons you're attributing a lot of qualities to DA2's that simply don't exist.

I didn't say that the characters in DAII were better than in DA:O.  I said that was one of the points that both games did an excellent job with, and something that I really enjoyed in contrast with a game like Skyrim.

Fenris has a deep-seated hatred of mages, yes, but he makes an excellent point in Act III, if I remember correctly.  When arguing with him about it, he'll say "And who should be our example, then?  Anders?  Merrill?"  Over and over again he's confronted with crazed blood mages that reinforce his beliefs... and yet he can be convinced by the sheer power of his friendship with Hawke to support them against the Templars.

Aside from that, he's dryly witty, hates fish, is an agnostic/skeptic, is good at cards, is a mercenary in his spare time, is (according to Isabela) good in bed, self-deprecating ("A pair of lyrium breasts tattooed on my chest would make things better, I suppose...") is evidently good friends with Donnic and Aveline, is awkward but well-intentioned in personal interactions, is antagonistic towards the Dalish and somewhat conflicted about his own identity and place in the elvhen community... I could probably go on for another couple of paragraphs without further mentioning his opinion of mages.

Anders IS in fact rather single-minded in Awakenings, but it takes a mean Warden to bring out that side in him.  I pulled all of his sound clips from Awakenings and posted a multitude of them over on my Tumblr- see the following:

http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHIZd0x 
http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHIamMB 
http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHIbW2i 
http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHIc1pC 
http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHIhi7V 
http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHIiWvu 
http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHIjF7_ 
 http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHIjjtP 
http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHImBFW 
 http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHImZlD 
 http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHImt6l 
 http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHInbgo 
 http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHIq5YN 
 http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHIrb-6 
 http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXxHIujcD 

In addition to that Anders is religious (see Awakenings clips where he admits he was a "good little Andrastian" which he masks with derision and casual blasphemy.  He loses that mask in DAII after Justice and goes back to having a crisis of faith.  He's idealistic, romantic, educated, apparently does a lot of reading (3 or 4 different comments about his books in the two games.)  He yearns for a family (all of the clips relating to parents/children being taken away,how mages can't get married, the "our children" in his romance finale, etc.  He's not fond of the outdoors in Awakenings although he toughens up a bit in DAII (I imagine living in the sewers puts nature in a different perspective) and is claustrophobic (probably due to the year in solitary.)

I could go on, but regarding the whole "terrorist" bit, I rather disagree with the simplistic labelling.  I explain why, in detail, here:

http://tmblr.co/ZuCeXx8jRvHo 

As for Merrill- she doesn't accept the label of "demons."  In the elvhen viewpoint, all spirits are spirits, period, and the division of "good" and "evil" that the humans have created is in her mind an artificial distinction.  She chooses to use what she terms a "spirit" in the same way that Anders views Justice as a "spirit."  She doesn't trust it, either- she uses it for her purposes while attempting to safeguard herself against possession.

Merrill tells us that Keepers are tasked with saving Elvhen history.  They move from place to place and clear out old artifacts unter guardianship of the varterral, presumably to reclaim their history and technology.  Her attempt to reclaim the eluvian is both an example of her performing a Keeper's duty, as she sees it, and as a way to save Tamlen, someone she loved.

Again, I don't think DAII's characters are neccessarily better than DA:O's- I think both games had fantastic characters, and I simply wanted to illustrate that DAII's characters are just as amazing.  I love them all.

Kirkwall's geography is relatively unimportant because the story isn't driven by how many places you vist or how many dragons you kill.  What makes Kirkwall interesting are the people in it- the Qunari, the Hawke family, the Meredith/Elthina/Dumar triumvirate, the good and evil in both the templars and the mages.  And Hawke and his people are swept up in a tide beyond their control, by events that don't go the way you'd like them to no matter what armor you have or what level you are.

There are a multitude of issues in DA:O that you get swept up in that are beyond your control. What is the difference between the Qunari, the templars vs. mages, etc and the Dales vs. the werewolves? The Circle tower being overrun with abominations? The dwarves electing a new king? Sure you eventually resolve them all, but that too is how it works in DA2. The only difference is that in DA:O you're given more choice of how to handle a situation after the fact.

My personal take on DA:O is that the Warden always manages to resolve things to their satisfaction.  Not everyone is pleased, of course, but if you want to save the werewolves, you can.  If you want to side with the elves, you can.  If you want to wipe the Tower, you can, or you can save Wynne and the rest.  

In DAII you can't save the Starkhaven mages, for example.  You can TRY, and you may even think that they escape thanks to you.  They don't.  You can try to save Quentin's victim, and in a typical game, maybe you'd get there just in time, pull off a dramatic rescue, and kill the evil blood mage.  But although you TRY, you can't, and the resulting fallout left many of us weeping and going "Wow, what a great storyline!  Bioware didn't pull any punches, and man, I have ALL OF THE FEELS!"

And sometimes, if you do things just right, you can save a halfblood mage from his own powers.  You can turn tragedy with your sibling into something better.  You can't win them all, and that makes the victories sweeter, the defeats more crushing.

Again YMMV but this is my take.

[katiebour]

They're objectively one-note. This isn't a bias, their character traits simply do not go far beyond the fact that they have hatred toward the chantry/mages.

Let's try this: I'd like you to describe Anders and Fenris without saying what they look like or what their role or profession in the game is. Real people have a great deal of traits; so how many do Fenris and Anders have?

Sure, let's do it:

Fenris:
Likes:  Certainty, being led, black-and-white decisions, casual friendships/relationships, cards, jokes, reading, religious debate.
Dislikes:  Fish, emotional uncertainty, feeling insecure, feeling inferior, shoes.
Wants:  A connection to his past, a relationship, family, emotional independence, love, safety.
Admires:  Aveline's strength, Varric's humor, Isabela's independence, Sebastian's certainty.

Anders:
Likes:  Cats, friendship, books, drinking, jokes, sex, safety, reading, innuendo, intellectual debate, hyperbole.
Dislikes:  Wild animals and the great outdoors, danger, dark or enclosed spaces.
Wants:  Safety, love, romance, family, equality for everyone, creature comforts, to be useful, to be admired.
Admires:  Isabela's independence, Varric's humor, acceptance,and storytelling, Bethany's idealism.

Could probably do it for all the characters.  There's so much to these fabulous fictional people! 

[Koire]

Oh, I think I urgently need to bookmark this page)

[Alessa]

katiebour wrote...

They're objectively one-note. This isn't a bias, their character traits simply do not go far beyond the fact that they have hatred toward the chantry/mages.

Let's try this: I'd like you to describe Anders and Fenris without saying what they look like or what their role or profession in the game is. Real people have a great deal of traits; so how many do Fenris and Anders have?

Sure, let's do it:

Fenris:
Likes:  Certainty, being led, black-and-white decisions, casual friendships/relationships, cards, jokes, reading, religious debate.
Dislikes:  Fish, emotional uncertainty, feeling insecure, feeling inferior, shoes.
Wants:  A connection to his past, a relationship, family, emotional independence, love, safety.
Admires:  Aveline's strength, Varric's humor, Isabela's independence, Sebastian's certainty.

Anders:
Likes:  Cats, friendship, books, drinking, jokes, sex, safety, reading, innuendo, intellectual debate, hyperbole.
Dislikes:  Wild animals and the great outdoors, danger, dark or enclosed spaces.
Wants:  Safety, love, romance, family, equality for everyone, creature comforts, to be useful, to be admired.
Admires:  Isabela's independence, Varric's humor, acceptance,and storytelling, Bethany's idealism.

Could probably do it for all the characters.  There's so much to these fabulous fictional people! 

Great job! 

[Das Tentakel]

katiebour wrote...

batlin wrote...

Like Ostagar? Like the Archdemon? Like the fate of the dwarves? The anvil of the void? There's a great deal of things the warden can't control if you paid attention to the epilogue.

Yes, but with the Archdemon you could A) sacrifice yourself sacrifice Alistair C) perform the Dark Ritual.  With the dwarves you could A) support Harrowmont or support Bhelin.  With the Anvil of the Void you can destroy it and side with Caradin or keep it.  I think Ostagar was one of the few points where you acted but had no actual choice as to how it was resolved.

I know a lot of Origins players felt cheated that DAII contained so many instances of utter lack of choice.  You can't stop the Qunari from attacking.  You can't keep your sibling.  You can't stop Anders.  You could try, and maybe in that first playthrough you'd think that you could, in fact, save your sibling or save Kirkwall or save Anders from himself right up until you realized that you COULDN'T, which made the fallout all the more heartbreaking.  I liked that.

The problem with DA2 (from my POV) is not so much that bad things happen without Hawke's ability to prevent these from happening. It's the absence of being able to make meaningful choices at key decision nodes that have a payoff.
Paying a heavy price for that payoff is perfectly alright, but with no payoff it is very easy for the player to get the feeling that Hawke's actions do not matter, that the player's choices don't matter, and that the whole narrative, in the context of the setting, is effectively pointless. 
Almost everybody among us live life without getting the opportunity to really make a (positive or negative) difference in the grand scheme of things; playing exactly such a character feels...oddly redundant.

It's great that DA2's narrative works for some people, but I personally would have to do some serious drugs before that's going to work for me.

[katiebour]

eroeru wrote...

@katiebour
The protagonist wasn't godlike?? If he didn't have the reign-fire-on-all (allies uneffected) abilities and animations, this would indeed be a good point. But he was de facto "awsumly" godlike. Only that his mentality was that of a ****** who thinks he can mess into all affairs and thus amend them. He seemed unintelligent no matter the option I chose (the sarcastic and mean ones being the awful ones) - I had no idea why everybody would listen to him sputtering gibberish.

Also, you believe that in real life your choices lack?? For Chrissake, you have nearly infinite choices in the very loose framework of life, and infinitely unclear functions to your actual dialogue/talks (only that it is unprobable that some of them would lead you straight to extraordinary wealth and real political power - unless you'd have superpowers that let you deal with any threat, be it a military one or otherwise).

Hawke is a powerful mage/warrior/rogue, yes.  But he/she can't save their family.  They can't save the Saarebas.  They can't save a certain young man who meets a sad end in the Chantry.  They can't save the blood mages from themselves (with the possible exception of Idunna.)  They can't save the miners at the Bone Pit no matter how many spiders or dragonlings or zombies they kill.

The game lets you try and save these people, to solve these situations, and you might think that you can right up until you realize that you're screwed and it's all gone to hell anyway.  But Hawke keeps trying, no matter what, and I admire that.

I agree that Hawke is somewhat of a meddling idiot, at times.  But that's half the point of the game- Hawke isn't an amazing, charismatic, brilliant leader.  he or she is no Loghain Mac Tir.  They're simply a regular person muddling through life trying to achieve their goals, and half the point of the game is that many people DON'T listen to him.

And I agree that we have near-infinite choices in real life- but there's rarely if ever an IDEAL solution.  Not everyone walks away from the battle.  Not every good guy can be saved and not every bad guy is defeated.  Sometimes you try your hardest, do your best, and fail anyway.  But you keep trying, because you have to, and that to me is what DAII is about. <3

[eroeru]

Alessa-00 wrote...

katiebour wrote...

They're objectively one-note. This isn't a bias, their character traits simply do not go far beyond the fact that they have hatred toward the chantry/mages.

Let's try this: I'd like you to describe Anders and Fenris without saying what they look like or what their role or profession in the game is. Real people have a great deal of traits; so how many do Fenris and Anders have?

Sure, let's do it:

Fenris:
Likes:  Certainty, being led, black-and-white decisions, casual friendships/relationships, cards, jokes, reading, religious debate.
Dislikes:  Fish, emotional uncertainty, feeling insecure, feeling inferior, shoes.
Wants:  A connection to his past, a relationship, family, emotional independence, love, safety.
Admires:  Aveline's strength, Varric's humor, Isabela's independence, Sebastian's certainty.

Anders:
Likes:  Cats, friendship, books, drinking, jokes, sex, safety, reading, innuendo, intellectual debate, hyperbole.
Dislikes:  Wild animals and the great outdoors, danger, dark or enclosed spaces.
Wants:  Safety, love, romance, family, equality for everyone, creature comforts, to be useful, to be admired.
Admires:  Isabela's independence, Varric's humor, acceptance,and storytelling, Bethany's idealism.

Could probably do it for all the characters.  There's so much to these fabulous fictional people! 

Great job! 

Well put.

But I'd like to sum it all up.

Fenris:
Likes: when you choose the red button when dealing with mages and the blue button when with templars
Wants: that you'd push the romancing option
Dislikes: when you choose the blue button when dealing with mages, and the red one for templars


Anders:
Likes: when you choose the blue button when dealing with mages, and the red one for templars
Wants: that you'd push the romancing option
Dislikes: when you choose the red button when dealing with mages and the blue button when with templars

[deserk]

The biggest mistake with Dragon Age 2 is that BioWare forgot that what made Dragon Age: Origins what it was. In my opinion Dragon Age should always be aimed to be a "spiritual successor" to Baldur's Gate, like DAO was (That's how they marketed DAO). That's Dragon Age. A new modern RPG with the good influences of past traditional RPGs. In other words, quality gameplay, loads of content and depth, epic story, lots of customization, diverse companions, different dialogue/path choices.

I don't really like criticising BioWare because they are and have been some of my most favourite video-game developing companies, however I feel that these days they really do often neglect the fanbase a lot (I'd like to believe it's EA's influence...), and take far too big risks to broaden the product at the expense of their original customers. The end result of DA2 was for the -most part-, the general video-game community not caring and original DA fans being disappointed a great deal.

For the next possible Dragon Age game, I really do hope BioWare will strive to make it appealing to those who liked DAO. DAO was a real RPG gem, and it would be a shame if it were destined to be the last of it's kind.

Modifié par deserk, 13 mars 2012 - 04:01 .

[katiebour]

Well put.

But I'd like to sum it all up.

Fenris:
Likes: when you choose the red button when dealing with mages and the blue button when with templars
Wants: that you'd push the romancing option
Dislikes: when you choose the blue button when dealing with mages, and the red one for templars


Anders:
Likes: when you choose the blue button when dealing with mages, and the red one for templars
Wants: that you'd push the romancing option
Dislikes: when you choose the red button when dealing with mages and the blue button when with templars

:lol:

LOLing hard.  Awesome 

[eroeru]

katiebour wrote...

The game lets you try and save these people, to solve these situations, and you might think that you can right up until you realize that you're screwed and it's all gone to hell anyway.  But Hawke keeps trying, no matter what, and I admire that.

I somewhat envy you for being able to experience that.

But as it is, I didn't get the notion that I'm involved in "trying to save these people" and fail. Hawke keeps trying, sure, and he has some mighty fireballs behind him, these were mine to control - but the shortcomings weren't felt at all, as far as I'm concerned - maybe it's the fault of the click-on-one-option-patterns thing where the dialogues didn't get me involved nor thinking (which is a prerequisite for involvement).

I just really don't get the charm behind the not-so-intelligent common man with enough power to best all whom he wills.

[TEWR]

Das Tentakel wrote...


The problem with DA2 (from my POV) is not so much that bad things happen without Hawke's ability to prevent these from happening. It's the absence of being able to make meaningful choices at key decision nodes that have a payoff.

Indeed, 'tis part of my problem as well. I do not mind the Qunari attacking, or Bartrand's deed, or even what happens near the end of Act 3.

My issue is that the player agency of the person playing the game -- redundancy FTW FTW -- is undermined throughout the game in various other areas. 

My other issue is that the narrative itself is just... well... a mess, with no real connection between the 3 acts other then who the PC is. Even what little connection is in the base game of DAII is very poorly done.

[Das Tentakel]

katiebour wrote...

I agree that Hawke is somewhat of a meddling idiot, at times.  But that's half the point of the game- Hawke isn't an amazing, charismatic, brilliant leader.  he or she is no Loghain Mac Tir.  They're simply a regular person muddling through life trying to achieve their goals, and half the point of the game is that many people DON'T listen to him.

I definitely must have been playing another game than you.
There's nothing 'regular' about Hawke at all. Hawke starts out as the child of a notable apostate Mage and a noblewoman who gave up her family. Hawke is acknowledged as a special person by all the important NPC's - from Flemeth to the Arishok, the Viscount, Meredith, Orsino and others. If Hawke's supposed to be a regular Joe, than I'm the Emperor of Orlais.

If there is a point in the game's narrative, than it's that extraneous circumstances (coincidence, bad luck, a particular power constellation) can ruin your day. Even that of the Champion of Kirkwall. Not a particularly profound fact of life, to be honest. And not very compatible with the concept of player agency.<_<

[Mr Fixit]

eroeru wrote...

I just really don't get the charm behind the not-so-intelligent common man with enough power to best all whom he wills.

A fair point. It comes down to, I think, BioWare using a D&D-ish heroic fantasy system in a game trying to be grim&gritty.

[Das Tentakel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...


The problem with DA2 (from my POV) is not so much that bad things happen without Hawke's ability to prevent these from happening. It's the absence of being able to make meaningful choices at key decision nodes that have a payoff.

Indeed, 'tis part of my problem as well. I do not mind the Qunari attacking, or Bartrand's deed, or even what happens near the end of Act 3.

My issue is that the player agency of the person playing the game -- redundancy FTW FTW -- is undermined throughout the game in various other areas. 

To make my point: Making a difference would have been if Hawke's decisions at the end of the game would have meant that either Templars or Mages emerged victorious in Kirkwall, and took control of the city. After which the Mage-Templar war would break out elsewhere in Thedas, but at least Hawke would have decided the issue in his part of the world. The cost would have been losing valued NPC companions or relatives. For instance, being forced to kill Bethany and Merrill if Hawke joins the Templars, or Carver and Fenris if Hawke joins the Mages. 

Would also have been handy to import to DA3, determining whether Kirkwall is referred to as either Mage-controlled or Templar-controlled, and which faction would revere the Champion of Kirkwall as ´their´ hero or despise him as a great  villain.

Insignificance never feels empowering<_<

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 13 mars 2012 - 04:50 .

[Pasquale1234]

Das Tentakel wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...


The problem with DA2 (from my POV) is not so much that bad things happen without Hawke's ability to prevent these from happening. It's the absence of being able to make meaningful choices at key decision nodes that have a payoff.

Indeed, 'tis part of my problem as well. I do not mind the Qunari attacking, or Bartrand's deed, or even what happens near the end of Act 3.

My issue is that the player agency of the person playing the game -- redundancy FTW FTW -- is undermined throughout the game in various other areas. 

To make my point: Making a difference would have been if Hawke's decisions at the end of the game would have meant that either Templars or Mages emerged victorious in Kirkwall, and took control of the city. After which the Mage-Templar war would break out elsewhere in Thedas, but at least Hawke would have decided the issue in his part of the world. The cost would have been losing valued NPC companions or relatives. For instance, being forced to kill Bethany and Merrill if Hawke joins the Templars, or Carver and Fenris if Hawke joins the Mages. 

Would also have been handy to import to DA3, determining whether Kirkwall is referred to as either Mage-controlled or Templar-controlled, and which faction would revere the Champion of Kirkwall as ´their´ hero or villain.

Insignificance never feels empowering<_<

Well said.

I can certainly understand the charm in stories about everyday people doing their best and not always succeeding as they would like, but I think such stories work better in other forms of media.  Players who spend many many hours playing through a story want to feel like they are working toward some goal and have accomplished something significant by the end of the story - at least, some of us do.

[katiebour]

Das Tentakel wrote...

katiebour wrote...

I agree that Hawke is somewhat of a meddling idiot, at times.  But that's half the point of the game- Hawke isn't an amazing, charismatic, brilliant leader.  he or she is no Loghain Mac Tir.  They're simply a regular person muddling through life trying to achieve their goals, and half the point of the game is that many people DON'T listen to him.

I definitely must have been playing another game than you.
There's nothing 'regular' about Hawke at all. Hawke starts out as the child of a notable apostate Mage and a noblewoman who gave up her family. Hawke is acknowledged as a special person by all the important NPC's - from Flemeth to the Arishok, the Viscount, Meredith, Orsino and others. If Hawke's supposed to be a regular Joe, than I'm the Emperor of Orlais.

Emperor!

But seriously, Hawke is the child of a runaway mage and a former noble.  In Ferelden they're farmers and if Hawke is a rogue or warrior, soldiers in the King's army.  Flemeth herself asks "Is it fate or chance?"  Hawke isn't a god, or a dragon- he or she is the person who happens to be in the right (or wrong) place at the right (or wrong) time with the right (or wrong) people.  He or she is the center of a political maelstrom, to paraphrase Seneschal Bran.

Hawke was a refugee and country kin who earned power and wealth through hard work, the right connections, luck, and their companions.  Hawke wouldn't have been wealthy without the Deep Roads expedition, which would not have been possible without Varric, Bartrand, and Anders.  Hawke wouldn't have become the Champion without the timely intervention of Meredith and Orsino during the Act II finale (getting them into the Keep.)  The Arishok would have taken no notice of Hawke without the chance interaction between Javaris Tintop and the resulting plotline, along with Hawke's association with Isabela.  I have to admit I'm rather curious to try the game without recruiting Isabela just to see how the story differs without her in that particular instance.

Again, there's nothing intrinsically "special" about Hawke except that he or she tends to surround themselves with volatile people and situations, imo.

[Mr Fixit]

Das Tentakel wrote...


Would also have been handy to import to DA3, determining whether Kirkwall is referred to as either Mage-controlled or Templar-controlled, and which faction would revere the Champion of Kirkwall as ´their´ hero or despise him as a great villain.

Now that's a neat idea. Me likes. Since there are already some rumors about DA3 going "global" on Thedas, it would be interesting to get a large-ish unique sidequest (or even a main quest, why not) dealing with Kirkwall situation in a different way depending on the outcome of DA2.

Such semi-isolated stuff would go a long way to reinforce the feeling that imports do matter. Unfortunately, BioWare seems to think that the occasional inconsequential cameo is the best they can offer.

[esper]

I really, really hope dragon ages doesn't go global on Thedas. I want to see each country proberly, not just a little bit of each which tells us nothing.

[Das Tentakel]

katiebour wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

katiebour wrote...

I agree that Hawke is somewhat of a meddling idiot, at times.  But that's half the point of the game- Hawke isn't an amazing, charismatic, brilliant leader.  he or she is no Loghain Mac Tir.  They're simply a regular person muddling through life trying to achieve their goals, and half the point of the game is that many people DON'T listen to him.

I definitely must have been playing another game than you.
There's nothing 'regular' about Hawke at all. Hawke starts out as the child of a notable apostate Mage and a noblewoman who gave up her family. Hawke is acknowledged as a special person by all the important NPC's - from Flemeth to the Arishok, the Viscount, Meredith, Orsino and others. If Hawke's supposed to be a regular Joe, than I'm the Emperor of Orlais.

Emperor!

But seriously, Hawke is the child of a runaway mage and a former noble.  In Ferelden they're farmers and if Hawke is a rogue or warrior, soldiers in the King's army.  Flemeth herself asks "Is it fate or chance?"  Hawke isn't a god, or a dragon- he or she is the person who happens to be in the right (or wrong) place at the right (or wrong) time with the right (or wrong) people.  He or she is the center of a political maelstrom, to paraphrase Seneschal Bran.

Hawke was a refugee and country kin who earned power and wealth through hard work, the right connections, luck, and their companions.  Hawke wouldn't have been wealthy without the Deep Roads expedition, which would not have been possible without Varric, Bartrand, and Anders.  Hawke wouldn't have become the Champion without the timely intervention of Meredith and Orsino during the Act II finale (getting them into the Keep.)  The Arishok would have taken no notice of Hawke without the chance interaction between Javaris Tintop and the resulting plotline, along with Hawke's association with Isabela.  I have to admit I'm rather curious to try the game without recruiting Isabela just to see how the story differs without her in that particular instance.

Again, there's nothing intrinsically "special" about Hawke except that he or she tends to surround themselves with volatile people and situations, imo.

You have convinced me. After all, I am the son of a mad scientist and a once famous society beauty who eloped with him, grew up in hiding from the KGB in a Yorkshire village, rediscovered Atlantis and was declared Hero of the Fatherland in Yugoslavia just before that country blew up.

And no, you can´t have what I´m having 

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 13 mars 2012 - 05:35 .

[katiebour]

Das Tentakel wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...


The problem with DA2 (from my POV) is not so much that bad things happen without Hawke's ability to prevent these from happening. It's the absence of being able to make meaningful choices at key decision nodes that have a payoff.

Indeed, 'tis part of my problem as well. I do not mind the Qunari attacking, or Bartrand's deed, or even what happens near the end of Act 3.

My issue is that the player agency of the person playing the game -- redundancy FTW FTW -- is undermined throughout the game in various other areas. 

To make my point: Making a difference would have been if Hawke's decisions at the end of the game would have meant that either Templars or Mages emerged victorious in Kirkwall, and took control of the city. After which the Mage-Templar war would break out elsewhere in Thedas, but at least Hawke would have decided the issue in his part of the world. The cost would have been losing valued NPC companions or relatives. For instance, being forced to kill Bethany and Merrill if Hawke joins the Templars, or Carver and Fenris if Hawke joins the Mages. 

Would also have been handy to import to DA3, determining whether Kirkwall is referred to as either Mage-controlled or Templar-controlled, and which faction would revere the Champion of Kirkwall as ´their´ hero or despise him as a great  villain.

Insignificance never feels empowering<_<

But that's why Cassandra is looking for Hawke- because despite everything that went down, and the fact that in the end Hawke couldn't stop what happened, or protect Kirkwall from becoming the epicenter of the Mage-Templar War, he or she was still at the center of everything that happened, and is influential enough through his or her rise to power that they may yet make a difference in how things pan out (or start out, depending on how long this war goes on.)

But I understand how you feel- there's no clear-cut ending, no real victory of any sort, yet, because the story simply isn't over.  We really need a post- Act III DLC or a direct segue from Act III to DA III.  That seems to be a major source of irritation for many people who don't want to shell out more money simply for the resolution they felt the original game required.

I liked the ambiguity and am actually sort of glad that the story isn't over, because I can hold out hope for MOAR MOAR MOAR!  But I absolutely understand that not everyone shares my feelings on that point.

I do agree that the rushed development schedule probably muddled what could have been a very good Act III into a much less coherent and satisfying product (side-eyes Orsino and glares a little.)  I definitely need some resolution regarding Prince Vael and his oh-so-terrifying proto-invasion.  You want my precious Anders?  Come get him, big boy.

But as far as Hawke being a great leader or villain of the Mage Templar War, well, I'm pretty sure DA3 will include that in much the same way that the Warden was referenced in DAII.

Modifié par katiebour, 13 mars 2012 - 05:44 .

[katiebour]

Das Tentakel wrote...
You have convinced me. After all, I am the son of a mad scientist and a once famous society beauty who eloped with him, grew up in hiding from the KGB in a Yorkshire village, rediscovered Atlantis and was declared Hero of the Fatherland in Yugoslavia just before that country blew up.

And no, you can´t have what I´m having 

[Mr Fixit]

katiebour wrote...

But as far as Hawke being a great leader or villain of the Mage Templar War, well, I'm pretty sure DA3 will include that in much the same way that the Warden was referenced in DAII.

Which means hardly at all.

Modifié par Mr Fixit, 13 mars 2012 - 05:45 .

[katiebour]

Mr Fixit wrote...

katiebour wrote...

But as far as Hawke being a great leader or villain of the Mage Templar War, well, I'm pretty sure DA3 will include that in much the same way that the Warden was referenced in DAII.

Which means hardly at all.

Cameos and broken import flags FTL!  Zevran why are you still broken? 

[Fast Jimmy]

If you say 'we need a DLC to resolve the story' then that flies in the face of a dozen human rights treaties across the globe.