1306 réponses à ce sujet

[eroeru]

Das Tentakel wrote...

If there is a point in the game's narrative, than it's that extraneous circumstances (coincidence, bad luck, a particular power constellation) can ruin your day. Even that of the Champion of Kirkwall. Not a particularly profound fact of life, to be honest. And not very compatible with the concept of player agency.<_<

Truth!

[Mr Fixit]

katiebour wrote...
Cameos and broken import flags FTL!

Faster-than-light import flags, you say? Could be a problem, to be perfectly honest.

[TEWR]

But that's why Cassandra is looking for Hawke- because despite everything that went down, and the fact that in the end Hawke couldn't stop what happened, or protect Kirkwall from becoming the epicenter of the Mage-Templar War, he or she was still at the center of everything that happened, and is influential enough through his or her rise to power that they may yet make a difference in how things pan out (or start out, depending on how long this war goes on.)

That's the thing though. There is no Rise to Power. A rise to power involves building political connections from start to finish. A rise to power involves using more then brute strength to move up in the world. It involves cunning, wit, savvy.

Hawke doesn't show these things. He doesn't ask nobles to help him if his expedition is successful. Hawke doesn't display much thought in what he does. For him, it's just "Kill and hope things work out for the best"

Hawke is little more then an enforcer.

I liked the ambiguity and am actually sort of glad that the story isn't over, because I can hold out hope for MOAR MOAR MOAR!  But I absolutely understand that not everyone shares my feelings on that point.

There was no ambiguity. If this was a no-spoiler thread, I'd go over why there wasn't any moral ambiguity in the game at all.

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If you say 'we need a DLC to resolve the story' then that flies in the face of a dozen human rights treaties across the globe.

Personally speaking, if I need to pay more money just to help make a game feel complete, then something's wrong. I'm sure you feel the same way Fast Jimmy.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mars 2012 - 05:59 .

[Das Tentakel]

katiebour wrote...

But that's why Cassandra is looking for Hawke- because despite everything that went down, and the fact that in the end Hawke couldn't stop what happened, or protect Kirkwall from becoming the epicenter of the Mage-Templar War, he or she was still at the center of everything that happened, and is influential enough through his or her rise to power that they may yet make a difference in how things pan out (or start out, depending on how long this war goes on.)

You are referring to the ingame explanation why interrogating Varric about the ´Kirkwall affair´ is important.
It does not make the Champion by him or herself important. It does not alter the fact that the Champion has no real impact by him or herself, and that as a consequence player agency is almost completely absent.
A hypothetical future DLC or expansion does not change this for DA2 itself.

Whether lack of player agency is a problem or even a breaking point or not for an individual player is a matter of personal opinion. Some people don´t mind having a ride without having any control, others don´t.
Many like a rollercoaster ride, but frankly, DA2 isn´t my idea of a rollercoaster ride; it's too long, repetitive, confused and mechanically clunky for that. At best, I would say that DA2 is a rewarding game for people who like finding 'the raisins in the porridge', as we Dutch like to say.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 13 mars 2012 - 05:59 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If you say 'we need a DLC to resolve the story' then that flies in the face of a dozen human rights treaties across the globe.

Personally speaking, if I need to pay more money just to help make a game feel complete, then something's wrong.

Would you object to being able to pay less to buy only the parts of the game you want?

It amounts to the same thing.  I would pay more to get a better game.  Game prices today are far lower than they were 25 years ago.

[katiebour]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But that's why Cassandra is looking for Hawke- because despite everything that went down, and the fact that in the end Hawke couldn't stop what happened, or protect Kirkwall from becoming the epicenter of the Mage-Templar War, he or she was still at the center of everything that happened, and is influential enough through his or her rise to power that they may yet make a difference in how things pan out (or start out, depending on how long this war goes on.)

That's the thing though. There is no Rise to Power. A rise to power involves building political connections from start to finish. A rise to power involves using more then brute strength to move up in the world. It involves cunning, wit, savvy.

Hawke doesn't show these things. He doesn't ask nobles to help him if his expedition is successful. Hawke doesn't display much thought in what he does. For him, it's just "Kill and hope things work out for the best"

Hawke is little more then an enforcer.

I liked the ambiguity and am actually sort of glad that the story isn't over, because I can hold out hope for MOAR MOAR MOAR!  But I absolutely understand that not everyone shares my feelings on that point.

There was no ambiguity. If this was a no-spoiler thread, I'd go over why there wasn't any moral ambiguity in the game at all.

You're very right that there were missed opportunities for gathering support- that was one of the things that really ticked me off about the Become-The-Viscount option.  Apparently the only person you could curry favor with, for that, was Meredith herself, despite your connection with the de Launcets, Leandra's connections, your wealth, Sebastian's support, and so on.

By ambiguity I meant "the question of what happens after you walk out of the courtyard and into the sunset" not moral ambiguity.  I'm glad that Hawke's fate is as of yet unknown because that for me signals that the story isn't over.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Elhanan wrote...

But if one wants to be shot down in an epic fail, avoid RPG's and stick with RL....

That's awful.  I want to play a credible character and see how his life turns out.  If I know he'll always succeed, where's the drama?

Elhanan wrote...

Emotion should be tempered with logic, but often is not. Blind hatred is called that for a reason, and both Fenris and Anders suffer from this

And as such, are both completely unsympathetic characters.  I strongly dislike both Fenris and Anders because of this, and I wanted neither in my party.

[Das Tentakel]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

But if one wants to be shot down in an epic fail, avoid RPG's and stick with RL....

That's awful.  I want to play a credible character and see how his life turns out.  If I know he'll always succeed, where's the drama?

Elhanan wrote...

Emotion should be tempered with logic, but often is not. Blind hatred is called that for a reason, and both Fenris and Anders suffer from this

And as such, are both completely unsympathetic characters.  I strongly dislike both Fenris and Anders because of this, and I wanted neither in my party.

To add to this, Anders, Fenris and Merrill are all three obsessive characters. In each case because of their past, but 'ca explique, mais n'excuse pas'. It simply provides an easy, understandable explanation why they are effectively idiots. They are the kind of people any sane person would avoid, no matter how handy they are in a fight. Or how cute they look.<_<

Obsessive, hmmm... Lots of those in DA2. Maybe DA2 should have been called: Dragon Age 2: Kirkwall Asylum:wizard:

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 13 mars 2012 - 06:24 .

[TEWR]

Das Tentakel wrote...


To add to this, Anders, Fenris and Merrill are all three obsessive characters. In each case because of their past, but 'ca explique, mais n'excuse pas'. It simply provides an easy, understandable explanation why they are effectively idiots. They are the kind of people any sane person would avoid, no matter how handy they are in a fight. Or how cute they look.<_<

Hey, Merrill's not an idiot. and by Act 3, she's no longer obsessed with the Eluvian.

katiebour wrote...

You're very right that there were missed opportunities for gathering support- that was one of the things that really ticked me off about the Become-The-Viscount option.  Apparently the only person you could curry favor with, for that, was Meredith herself, despite your connection with the de Launcets, Leandra's connections, your wealth, Sebastian's support, and so on.

Ignoring all of the potential to curry favor for the position of Viscount in Act 3 -- where as you pointed out, there was a lot -- there's also the Wardens of Amaranthine -- since Hawke does do a favor or two for the politically involved Arl at the time -- Magistrate Vanard, and the Viscount himself in Act 1.

If I could've said to them "Hey, I've got this expedition. If I succeed, can you guys help support my family when we try to get our old estate back?" and "Can I rely on you in the future if I do become a noble?", that would've gone some way towards how I view Hawke in Act 1.

There's also Athenril and her guild, who could bribe/blackmail officials into helping me.

And to an extent, the Elves of the Alienage if I killed Kelder. While they're not important enough for other nobility to listen to what they say, popular support amongst the Elves of the Alienage might make the Viscount think about it if he wants to help foster relations between the Elves and the Humans.

This is pretty much the crux of why I -- and possibly other people -- are disappointed with the game. There were a lot of good/great concepts but they weren't utilized to their fullest potential, if they were even utilized at all.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mars 2012 - 06:32 .

[Das Tentakel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hey, Merrill's not an idiot. and by Act 3, she's no longer obsessed with the Eluvian.

:PHey, I think she's cute too.  The dénouement for Merrill is in Act III, actually. So she ends 'breaking her obsession'. That does not alter the fact that she's an obsessive for almost the entire game, with a cathartic event finally breaking her obsession. The problem lies with the intensity of her obsessiveness during most of the game, over a period of many years. And the cathartic event itself felt rather forced, but that's the fault of the clunky storytelling.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Ignoring all of the potential to curry favor for the position of Viscount in Act 3 -- where as you pointed out, there was a lot -- there's also the Wardens of Amaranthine -- since Hawke does do a favor or two for the politically involved Arl at the time -- Magistrate Vanard, and the Viscount himself in Act 1.

If I could've said to them "Hey, I've got this expedition. If I succeed, can you guys help support my family when we try to get our old estate back?" and "Can I rely on you in the future if I do become a noble?", that would've gone some way towards how I view Hawke in Act 1.

There's also Athenril and her guild, who could bribe/blackmail officials into helping me.

And to an extent, the Elves of the Alienage if I killed Kelder. While they're not important enough for other nobility to listen to what they say, popular support amongst the Elves of the Alienage might make the Viscount think about it if he wants to help foster relations between the Elves and the Humans.

This is pretty much the crux of why I -- and possibly other people -- are disappointed with the game. There were a lot of good/great concepts but they weren't utilized to their fullest potential, if they were even utilized at all.

The thing is, DA2 is not about Kirkwall or Hawke.
It is about Hawke more or less accidentally getting involved with, but not him/herself causing, a major event. Which just happened to take place in Kirkwall. Both Hawke and Kirkwall are absolutely secondary, what matters is the underlying tension between Mages and Templars, something that conceivably could have erupted somewhere else as well 
(In fact, that's one of the big plot holes in DA2: considering that the Rite of Annulment is not exactly an unknown occurence. Why would it trigger a wider conflict now?) 

A crude historical analogy would be playing some dude in Sarajevo prior to World War I, who climbs up the social ladder, gets acquainted with the Mayor, Archduke Francis Ferdinand and the conspirators who intend to assassinate the Archduke, witnesses the assassination and then gets the hell out of Dodge. Without having any real involvement in, or impact on, events. The location and the local people don't really matter, it's the underlying international tensions and alliances that allow the event to cause World War I. Sarajevo was just one of many places where this could have happened, just as any place where there´s a Circle of Mages could have been subject to Annulment leading to a broader conflict.

Point is this: If Kirkwall and Hawke's 'rise to power' do not really matter, but the Mage-Templar and the Chantry-Qunari tensions and resulting conflicts do, this inevitably influences, and I think in DA2 actually determines how Kirkwall is depicted and what Hawke's role is.
Kirkwall becomes, not an interesting and varied place in itself, with exquisitely detailed scheming merchant princes, criminal consortiums, feuding noble families, intrigues of foreign ambassadors, commercial and territorial conflicts with its neighbours etc, but a mere, somewhat fuzzy, background to a couple of key incidents leading to the main event(s).
And that makes Hawke, not a rising power in a specific and detailed setting, but a mere bystander / witness to these couple of key incidents.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 13 mars 2012 - 07:17 .

[TEWR]

Hey, I think she's cute too. The dénouement for Merrill is in Act III, actually. So she ends 'breaking her obsession'. That does not alter the fact that she's an obsessive for almost the entire game, with a cathartic event finally breaking her obsession. The problem lies with the intensity of her obsessiveness during most of the game, over a period of many years. And the cathartic event itself felt rather forced, but that's the fault of the clunky storytelling.

Well, the event itself isn't really what broke the obsession. Her obsession was pretty much broken prior to that quest. Especially on the friendship path.

At least, that's how I see it.

The thing is, DA2 is not about Kirkwall or Hawke.
It is about Hawke more or less accidentally getting involved with, but not him/herself causing, a major event. Which just happened to take place in Kirkwall. Both Hawke and Kirkwall are absolutely secondary, what matters is the underlying tension between Mages and Templars, something that conceivably could have erupted somewhere else as well
(In fact, that's one of the big plot holes in DA2: considering that the Rite of Annulment is not exactly an unknown occurence. Why would it trigger a wider conflict now?)

Yea but the marketing and dev comments said that the game was about Hawke's rise to power, his part in the Mage-Templar conflict, and Kirkwall's evolution over the years because of choices made throughout the game.

So, the game should've held true to that. What it was professed to be about should've been what it was about.

[DAYtheELF]

No, it is NOT "at least accepted that DA2 went the wrong direction". I loved DA2 so very much. All of my friends loved it as well. Although Skyrim is great, it isn't a game that I love, and I would be sad to see DA go in that path (although I have full confidence that if BioWare did, they would rock it hardcore). DA2 has a lot of very loud, vocal haters, but I think that it has more quiet, respectful lovers.

[OMTING52601]

You make a good point, Das Tentakel. I never felt like Hawke actually rose to anything, he stumbled into everything and then was expected to fix stuff up to and including the end, which of course he was never going to be able to do in the first place. It would have been awesome if it were Hawke, instead of Aveline, saving the people of Kirkwall in the end instead of fighting the Mages/Templars - if the player so chose. That might have made the end more sensical, maybe, LOL!

Just like it didn't make sense for a Hawke who sided with the Mages to get run out of dodge after he clearly reveals(then kills) the Knight Commander who is obviously possessed. I'd think at the least the people of Kirkwall would want Hawke to be Viscount, if not the Templars as well. I'm not saying if that were an option, I'd have been all behind the game or anything, only suggesting from a story telling standpoint that the black or white, left or right, options in the story did it a great disservice, IMO, and made enjoyment of said story difficult for me to find.

That said, LOL, I really did like the combat and the companion banter throughout the game, and I replayed it many times just for that. However, even if I've found myself like the game now, I'm not going to be jumping on for the next ride without a preview first, LOL! I didn't buy the game as Tomb Raider: Medieval Times, I bought it expecting an RPG. Since IMO it isn't, then I feel far safer assuming that future BW RPG's will also fail to achieve that goal.

Especially after ME 3 *sigh*. Note I don't harbor any ill will towards folks that don't agree with my POV. There's nothing wrong with loving DA 2 and thinking it exceeded your own hopes. To each his own, etc.

[Das Tentakel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yea but the marketing and dev comments said that the game was about Hawke's rise to power, his part in the Mage-Templar conflict, and Kirkwall's evolution over the years because of choices made throughout the game.

So, the game should've held true to that. What it was professed to be about should've been what it was about.

I think we agree on that, but EA's marketing people and Bioware's devs either do not see eye to eye or they feed each other, and not in a good, nutritious way. Compare Skyrim's marketing with that of DA:O and DA2; Skyrim's fits the game, DA:O and DA2's don't do that at all.
But then, EA's marketing is so notorious that even Extra Credits devoted an episode to it.

www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/an-open-letter-to-ea-marketing

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 13 mars 2012 - 07:46 .

[Elhanan]

Das Tentakel wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That's awful.  I want to play a credible character and see how his life turns out.  If I know he'll always succeed, where's the drama?

And as such, are both completely unsympathetic characters.  I strongly dislike both Fenris and Anders because of this, and I wanted neither in my party.

To add to this, Anders, Fenris and Merrill are all three obsessive characters. In each case because of their past, but 'ca explique, mais n'excuse pas'. It simply provides an easy, understandable explanation why they are effectively idiots. They are the kind of people any sane person would avoid, no matter how handy they are in a fight. Or how cute they look.

Obsessive, hmmm... Lots of those in DA2. Maybe DA2 should have been called: Dragon Age 2: Kirkwall Asylum

A criedible romance is offered with Aveline; very believable, heartbreaking, and well written. Almsot could hear "Just Friends' being whispered on the wind.

As far as being shot down, in this case that power is in the motives of Hawke, and perhaps of Anders; who may use and/or discard others without much explanation.

There seem to be plenty of fans for both Fenris and Anders; many posting in various threads. This evidence indicates that both characters are not as completely unsympathetic as some believe.

Obsessive; hmmm...perhaps to some extent, but not completely. Fenris, Anders, and Merrill will allow assist Hawke, Bethany, and Carter, as well as other opposition liked members of the Companions, and display other interests outside of their directed obsessions.

But Kirkwall Asylum is actually not a bad title considering the thin Veil over the city and surrounding area. Possession is rampant, magic remains cloaked and hidden, and only a few are strong of will enough to toss aside the Fade's influence.

Again, I enjoy all the DA stories; some are not as well received by others. But that is OK; simply do not wish either possible opinion to consider themselves as objective fact.

[Anomaly-]

Elhanan wrote...
Possible bias towards DA2, or in some posters, bias for DAO may lead to clouded judgement over some characterizations.

Well I admit freely that what I say is my own opinion. If that constitutes bias, everyone here is biased. If I had any bias at all, it was in the beginning when I really wanted to like DA2, having spent around $70 pre-ordering it. If I'm biased against DA2 now, how do you suppose that happened? It's because of things that I believed were objectively worse than DA:O. I'd ask you to point out anything I claimed as fact that isn't.

Elhanan wrote...
A criedible romance is offered with Aveline; very believable, heartbreaking, and well written. Almsot could hear "Just Friends' being whispered on the wind.

It's still not credible, because your actions make no difference. It doesn't matter what you've said, or your dominant personality type, there is nothing that will make Aveline interested in you, nor make the others uninterested. Those things are decided before you even make your Hawke, and no matter how you develop him/her, nothing changes. You just sit back, hit the heart icon and watch as Hawke either succeeds or fails, neither of which can you influence nor will it ever change. How is that credible? It's completely inorganic.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 13 mars 2012 - 10:30 .

[batlin]

Elhanan wrote...

Nice historical strawman; perhaps another time....

Fenris;
an Elf that approaches many trials and tests of self and others in a
logical manner, much similar to what is displayed in the Quanari leader,
is emotionally blinded to see that Mages are also slaves. Hawke's
leadership may help in Fenris to re-examine this idea, but only after
the known world is plunged into war.

Aveline is like Leliana and
Wynne in that they are all good hearted woman. But where Leliana is
easily manipulated, and Wynne is set in her ways, Aveline is strong of
both spirit and mind concerning her friends; not so shielded and
objective when concerning those of her affection.

A strawman? Iwas giving an example of how you propose a person who experiences the worst side of the people he has predjudices against could only THEN see the error of their ways. I'm telling you that's bullsh*t.

You only extrapolated on Fenris' only character trait. Are you admitting it's his only trait?

And I still fail to see how Aveline is any less a strong character than Leliana or Wynne are. Ok, she's a middleman between Leliana and Wynne in terms of how easily you can persuade them. So what?

katiebour wrote...

Yes, but with the Archdemon you could A) sacrifice yourself sacrifice Alistair C) perform the Dark Ritual.  With the dwarves you could A) support Harrowmont or support Bhelin.  With the Anvil of the Void you can destroy it and side with Caradin or keep it.  I think Ostagar was one of the few points where you acted but had no actual choice as to how it was resolved.

Fyi, the anvil of the void is used by the dwarves whether you choose to destroy it or not. If you choose to destroy it, the dwarves find it again. And I was more referring to how much of the things in DA:O aren't things that are preventable, but rather things that can be resolved any way you choose. You know, like how you can resolve problems in REAL life.

I didn't say that the characters in DAII were better than in DA:O.  I said that was one of the points that both games did an excellent job with, and something that I really enjoyed in contrast with a game like Skyrim.

Fenris has a deep-seated hatred of mages, yes, but he makes an excellent point in Act III, if I remember correctly.  When arguing with him about it, he'll say "And who should be our example, then?  Anders?  Merrill?"  Over and over again he's confronted with crazed blood mages that reinforce his beliefs... and yet he can be convinced by the sheer power of his friendship with Hawke to support them against the Templars.

What about Merril's master? Or Orsino? or First Enchanter Irving? Or Wynne? There are a great deal of mages in the DA universe that use their powers repsonsibly; focusing on the two dumbest mages in the game is a pretty big fallacy on Fenris' part.

Aside from that, he's dryly witty, hates fish, is an agnostic/skeptic, is good at cards, is a mercenary in his spare time, is (according to Isabela) good in bed, self-deprecating ("A pair of lyrium breasts tattooed on my chest would make things better, I suppose...") is evidently good friends with Donnic and Aveline, is awkward but well-intentioned in personal interactions, is antagonistic towards the Dalish and somewhat conflicted about his own identity and place in the elvhen community... I could probably go on for another couple of paragraphs without further mentioning his opinion of mages.

Lol "hates fish". Yeah, that's a big character trait there. But aside from that, good list. A shame that most of what comes out of his mouth is anti-mage angst.

Anders IS in fact rather single-minded in Awakenings, but it takes a mean Warden to bring out that side in him.  I pulled all of his sound clips from Awakenings and posted a multitude of them over on my Tumblr- see the following:

Point being his character is not defined by his chantry hate in Awakenings. Sure, you can get him talking about it, but that doesn't change that he gets a lot of character development aside from his hatred of the chantry and templars.

As for Merrill- she doesn't accept the label of "demons."  In the elvhen viewpoint, all spirits are spirits, period, and the division of "good" and "evil" that the humans have created is in her mind an artificial distinction.  She chooses to use what she terms a "spirit" in the same way that Anders views Justice as a "spirit."  She doesn't trust it, either- she uses it for her purposes while attempting to safeguard herself against possession.

Clearly her Keeper knew better than to think demons could potentially be decent folk if given a chance...

Merrill tells us that Keepers are tasked with saving Elvhen history.  They move from place to place and clear out old artifacts unter guardianship of the varterral, presumably to reclaim their history and technology.  Her attempt to reclaim the eluvian is both an example of her performing a Keeper's duty, as she sees it, and as a way to save Tamlen, someone she loved.

And the only way to get her history back is to threaten the lives of everyone she loves by summoning malevolent powers from beyond the Fade? Had she maybe considered forming an archeological expidition to reclaim elven history instead? Please. This is a bad Star Trek plot with really obvious moral implications. Merril is an idiot.

My personal take on DA:O is that the Warden always manages to resolve things to their satisfaction.  Not everyone is pleased, of course, but if you want to save the werewolves, you can.  If you want to side with the elves, you can.  If you want to wipe the Tower, you can, or you can save Wynne and the rest.

In DAII you can't save the Starkhaven mages, for example.  You can TRY, and you may even think that they escape thanks to you.  They don't.  You can try to save Quentin's victim, and in a typical game, maybe you'd get there just in time, pull off a dramatic rescue, and kill the evil blood mage.  But although you TRY, you can't, and the resulting fallout left many of us weeping and going "Wow, what a great storyline!  Bioware didn't pull any punches, and man, I have ALL OF THE FEELS!"

So then if you like a character that really cannot change the outcome of a great deal of events, what exactly makes Hawke special? What makes him anything other than some rich person with a sword?

Modifié par batlin, 13 mars 2012 - 10:34 .

[batlin]

Elhanan wrote...

A criedible romance is offered with Aveline; very believable, heartbreaking, and well written. Almsot could hear "Just Friends' being whispered on the wind.

What makes Aveline's romance more cedible/believable than Morrigan's, Zevran's, Anders', Leliana's, etc? because she's resistent to romance? Are you aware that in Romeo and Juliet the title characters fell in love instantly upon seeing each other? Are you going to make the argument that Aveline's romance in DA2 is more credible and believable than Romeo and Juliet's?

[thats1evildude]

batlin wrote...

What about Merril's master? Or Orsino? or First Enchanter Irving? Or Wynne? There are a great deal of mages in the DA universe that use their powers repsonsibly; focusing on the two dumbest mages in the game is a pretty big fallacy on Fenris' part.

He doesn't know Irving or Wynne, but if he were aware of the Ferelden Circle, he'd probably point to Uldred as an example of how easily mages can be corrupted by blood magic. And Orsino is not the best example of a mage using his powers responsibly (koff koff Harvester koff).

[TEWR]

Marethari shouldn't be used as an example of a mage that used her powers responsibly, considering she didn't even tell the clan what she was going to do -- which was become an Abomination -- nor did she actually warn Merrill of the supposed dangers of the Eluvian.

Saying "They're evil!" and "They're meant to be forgotten!" are not warnings. They have no basis for their claims -- other then the Taint, which has nothing to do with the Eluvians themselves -- and she had said she wanted nothing to do with the Eluvians. And her word after what happened in Act 3 shouldn't be believed simply because of what she did.

Also, Fenris admits to Anders that Bethany or Hawke -- depending on player class -- are examples of strong mages. Though the latter one becomes a bit.... contradictory if Hawke's a blood mage. Especially if he's like Merrill in how he uses blood magic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mars 2012 - 11:39 .

[batlin]

thats1evildude wrote...

He doesn't know Irving or Wynne, but if he were aware of the Ferelden Circle, he'd probably point to Uldred as an example of how easily mages can be corrupted by blood magic. And Orsino is not the best example of a mage using his powers responsibly (koff koff Harvester koff).

I'm just providing examples of mages that clearly use their powers wisely. And IIRC that statement was made before Orsino turns into a harvester.

[jbrand2002uk]

No it didnt go in the wrong direction it went in a different direction but alas many players have become greedy stuffing their faces silly on lashings of player agency which results in the cries of spoiled children when a game like DA2 comes out.

DAO has a commonality with an old movie called "Gone with the Wind" They were generally well written adored by large numbers of people but OMG the story was soooo Boooooooring Zzzzzzzzz
And I'm sorry but over 2 decades of RPG's continually allowing you to play the all singing all dancing person who saves the world "Again" is becoming very very tedious DA2 was a nice refreshing change

[batlin]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

No it didnt go in the wrong direction it went in a different direction but alas many players have become greedy stuffing their faces silly on lashings of player agency which results in the cries of spoiled children when a game like DA2 comes out.

DAO has a commonality with an old movie called "Gone with the Wind" They were generally well written adored by large numbers of people but OMG the story was soooo Boooooooring Zzzzzzzzz
And I'm sorry but over 2 decades of RPG's continually allowing you to play the all singing all dancing person who saves the world "Again" is becoming very very tedious DA2 was a nice refreshing change

Yeah, instead of saving the WOLRD, you save one city. The only real difference I see here is the scale, and that DA2's plot is disjointed.

[thats1evildude]

batlin wrote...

Yeah, instead of saving the WORLD, you save one city. The only real difference I see here is the scale, and that DA2's plot is disjointed.

That Hawke saves Kirkwall is beside the point. He changes the world in some pretty drastic ways.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 mars 2012 - 11:49 .