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[Killjoy Cutter]

Elhanan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Denerim alone feels larger than all of Kirkwall, and it's one dinky Ferelden city. 

Kirkwall's alienage appears to have room for about three dozen elves...

How is it that the Templars can't find escaped mages?  I could search all of Kirkwall in a few days by myself... 

Dunno; perhaps someone else 'feels' that The Hanged man is a better place to hang than a campfire. Or they 'feel' that the Arishok is way cooler than Archie. Or they 'feel' that the Alienage is better kept than Denerim's muddy slum, and has fewer second class citizens. Etc..

Feelings are subjective; opinions are not fact.

And the demons just beyond the thin Veil are at least partially responsible for clouding the minds of those hunting Mages.

So, does Kirkwall seem bigger to you than Denerim? 

Never mind the fact that DA:O has Orzimar, Redcliff, the entire Bracillian Forest, Lothering and Ostagar at times, the village and ruins where the Ashes are, all the stops along the road, the Keep if you get the DLC, and the Circle tower -- which is itself bigger in actual square footage than any of the neighborhoods in Kirkwall proper. 

Then there's the fact that you can't even get to most of the physical space in your own estate in Kirkwall, even though we know it has cellars bigger than the parts you can access! 

There's very little subjective about how tiny the actual space in DA2 is. 

And demons have little to do with it -- the point of the search comment was that Kirkwall proper has so little in the way of anything accessible that a single Templar could search the only thing in a matter of 2 or 3 days. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

There's nothing disjointed about the plot its just not the "ooooooh gimme MOAARRR player agency" that you enjoy.
Sometimes you just have to accept that you cant always be the all seeing all knowing person of kicks evil butt saves everyone rules the world and gets the girl. Somehow I get the feeling that the word NO does not exist in your world and neither are you accustomed to it, and you know what that saddens me deeply at the hollowness of your existence living on the princple that MOAAAARR= Better

Wow, way to load up a post with baseless ad hom arguments and silly charicatures and meaningless nonsense. 

You have to be trolling.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Valmarn wrote...

Djoxy wrote...

It definitely is, bioware said that DA3 is going to be the best of the both games... I just want DA:O2...

People always say that the newest addition to a franchise is going to be the better than its predecessors. Unless they brought Brent Knowles back, I'm not holding my breath.

Likewise

Bioware says a lot of things. 

ME3 is supposedly "a great place to get into Mass Effect" or however they said it, too. 

Origin "is not spyware". 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 14 mars 2012 - 01:30 .

[Elhanan]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So, does Kirkwall seem bigger to you than Denerim? 

Never mind the fact that DA:O has Orzimar, Redcliff, the entire Bracillian Forest, Lothering and Ostagar at times, the village and ruins where the Ashes are, all the stops along the road, the Keep if you get the DLC, and the Circle tower -- which is itself bigger in actual square footage than any of the neighborhoods in Kirkwall proper. 

Then there's the fact that you can't even get to most of the physical space in your own estate in Kirkwall, even though we know it has cellars bigger than the parts you can access! 

There's very little subjective about how tiny the actual space in DA2 is. 

And demons have little to do with it -- the point of the search comment was that Kirkwall proper has so little in the way of anything accessible that a single Templar could search the only thing in a matter of 2 or 3 days. 

My own 'feelings'? Depends on which Denerim one is comparing. Kirkwall feels larger than the Denerim I recall for most of the game, but End Game Denerim seems more expansive. However, almost all of Kirwall is accessable early on once explored, and is possibly a source of some repeated area criticisms.

And yes; the country of Ferelden is probably factually larger than one city and surrounding areas, but hardly surprising. And there is the fact that we cannot even get to most of the physical space in DAO even though we know the Deep Roads connect them.

But tiny is subjective; smaller than an entire country is factual.

Kirkwall seemed to be as large as many ancient cities (eg; Jericho, Nineveh, etc). IMO. And as I recall, that took a single man three days to go thru most of his search, too (ie; Jonah). Plus chariot races took place on the actual walls, I believe. Seems rather spacious to me.

Modifié par Elhanan, 14 mars 2012 - 03:43 .

[Das Tentakel]

Elhanan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So, does Kirkwall seem bigger to you than Denerim? 

Never mind the fact that DA:O has Orzimar, Redcliff, the entire Bracillian Forest, Lothering and Ostagar at times, the village and ruins where the Ashes are, all the stops along the road, the Keep if you get the DLC, and the Circle tower -- which is itself bigger in actual square footage than any of the neighborhoods in Kirkwall proper. 

And demons have little to do with it -- the point of the search comment was that Kirkwall proper has so little in the way of anything accessible that a single Templar could search the only thing in a matter of 2 or 3 days. 

My own 'feelings'? Depends on which Denerim one is comparing. Kirkwall feels larger than the Denerim I recall for most of the game, but End Game Denerim seems more expansive. However, almost all of Kirwall is accessable early on once explored, and is possibly a source of some repeated area criticisms.

And yes; the country of Ferelden is probably factually larger than one city and surrounding areas, but hardly surprising. And there is the fact that we cannot even get to most of the physical space in DAO even though we know the Deep Roads connect them.

But tiny is subjective; smaller than an entire country is factual.

Kirkwall seemed to be as large as many ancient cities (eg; Jericho, Nineveh, etc). IMO. And as I recall, that took a single man three days to go thru most of his search, too (ie; Jonah). Plus chariot races took place on the actual walls, I believe. Seems rather spacious to me.

Kirkwall has 4 open 'overland locations' (Hightown, Lowtown, Gallows, Docks), with a few more locations that are accessible (Keep, Disused Tunnel at night etc.). Denerim has two real open overland locations, the Market and the Alienage, with some 'empty' locations serving for scripted encounters and access to some buildings/dungeons (Arl of Redcliffe's estate, Arl of Denerim's palace, Fort Drakon).

In terms of actual 'gaming real estate', Kirkwall is larger. Whether the cities 'as a whole' (in-setting, out-of-game) are comparable, is difficult to say, as both cities are mostly map and background silhouette.
Denerim does have a more 'lived-in' feel to me, but both Denerim and Kirkwall pale compared to other cRPG cities, both in terms of size and looks. Kirkwall is larger but looks more homogenous, a 'fantasy concrete jungle' rather than a (pseudo-historical) fantasy city. In essence, Kirkwall traded a simpler visual design for a bigger size.

More important is how you feel about the city. If Kirkwall is your kind of place, more power to you.

I don't quite get the comparison with Jericho (historically never a very large or very important place) and Nineveh, which, in contrast, was a major Imperial capital.

If I had to hazard a guess based on the maps and what you see in terms of actual physical infrastructure, neither Denerim nor Kirkwall are particularly large. Possibly under the 10,000 mark each. Not that it matters, as most of it is 'out of game'.<_<

[Elhanan]

Das Tentakel wrote...

Kirkwall has 4 open 'overland locations' (Hightown, Lowtown, Gallows, Docks), with a few more locations that are accessible (Keep, Disused Tunnel at night etc.). Denerim has two real open overland locations, the Market and the Alienage, with some 'empty' locations serving for scripted encounters and access to some buildings/dungeons (Arl of Redcliffe's estate, Arl of Denerim's palace, Fort Drakon).

In terms of actual 'gaming real estate', Kirkwall is larger. Whether the cities 'as a whole' (in-setting, out-of-game) are comparable, is difficult to say, as both cities are mostly map and background silhouette.
Denerim does have a more 'lived-in' feel to me, but both Denerim and Kirkwall pale compared to other cRPG cities, both in terms of size and looks. Kirkwall is larger but looks more homogenous, a 'fantasy concrete jungle' rather than a (pseudo-historical) fantasy city. In essence, Kirkwall traded a simpler visual design for a bigger size.

More important is how you feel about the city. If Kirkwall is your kind of place, more power to you.

I don't quite get the comparison with Jericho (historically never a very large or very important place) and Nineveh, which, in contrast, was a major Imperial capital.

If I had to hazard a guess based on the maps and what you see in terms of actual physical infrastructure, neither Denerim nor Kirkwall are particularly large. Possibly under the 10,000 mark each. Not that it matters, as most of it is 'out of game'

Add Darktown for DA2, but I generally agree.

And feelings are not that important, as Kirkwall is supposed to depict a homogenous refuge; not the most attractive of sites. Denerim is depicted as more of a home, but it is supposed to do that. And Kirkwall is a city filled to capactity, so much so that people are known to fall from the windows.



I used Jericho to depict a city known for it's perimeter. And Nineveh was a city with added smaller lands included, like NYC. Plus the three days to search connects the comparison. And just a guess; both may have been known for having stone or mud based wals. Not everything in fantasy need be sparkling spires and fairy dust.

[Killjoy Cutter]

At best, Kirkwall is only slightly larger than Denerim.

Then there's EVERYTHING ELSE in DA:O.

[Elhanan]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

At best, Kirkwall is only slightly larger than Denerim.

Then there's EVERYTHING ELSE in DA:O.

So one 'feels' more claustraphobic in the sequel concerning war refugees? Success!

[katiebour]

batlin wrote...

The issues regarding the templars vs. mages are barely touched upon. The Qunari settlement is barely considered a problem.

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Templars vs. mages barely touched upon?  Maybe you missed the part where Karl Thekla, a Harrowed mage, was made Tranquil in direct contravention of established Chantry law.  Maybe you missed the part where Keran and Wilmod were kidnapped by blood mages attempting to lead an underground revolution.  Maybe you missed Grace and the other Starkhaven mages being relentlessly pursued by Templars, or where Ser Karras threatens to kill all of them (Alain included) because Decimus was a blood mage.  The acquisition of the idol in the Deep Roads is what eventually leads to Meredith's insanity and extreme crackdown on mages, which is what eventually feeds into the explosion of the Chantry.

The Qunari presence isn't elaborated on because at this point Hawke isn't a confidante of the Viscount.  It's simply setting the scene for Act II.  But the Arishok asks for Hawke in Act II because of the events in Act I, and the Viscount becomes acquainted with Hawke not only because of his/her power and wealth from the expedition, but also from the rescue of Saemus Dumar.  Act I is the setup that leads into Act II regarding the Qunari.  They are absolutely related.

*******************************

Hawke's influence does nothing to prevent the situation from turning to violence. Had Hawke not gained any wealth or influence in act 1, he would be in no less a position to defeat the Arishok. Also, mages vs. templars is again barely touched upon save for Anders' sidequest. Neither the previous nor the following acts have real significance in act 2.

 

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Ah, but would the Arishok have agreed to duel Hawke and co if he had not previously admitted that Hawke was basalit-an and thus worthy (a direct result of the Blackpowder quests)?  Would Orsino and Meredith have brought Hawke to the Keep to take part in or lead the rescue of the nobility if he was simply a penniless, powerless nobody?  Meredith as much says in her "rescue" that Hawke has turned up in her reports far too many times.  Again, Hawke was the person in the right place at the right time with all of the right associates.  That foundation was laid in Act I.

As for Mages v. Templars, we have the recruitment of Sebastian, the meeting with Sister Nightingale which implies that the Divine is getting ready to declare an Exalted March on Kirkwall because of the Mage/Templar problem.  We have a number of smaller mage-related quests and Anders' sidequest, the importance of which cannot be overstated because we see with our own eyes Alrik's abuse of power.  He as much implies that he'll make Ella Tranquil, then do whatever he wants to her.  We know that he's done it to others and that he's simply one of many Templars across Thedas who practice similar abuses.  We have All That Remains, a quest which might act as a powerful incentive to side with the Templars against dangerous blood mages (as Meredith references in Act III.)  The end of Act II not only results in the defeat of the Arishok, but in a power vacuum due to the Viscount's death that Meredith fills in Act III.  It results in her consolidation of power which leads directly to the events of Act III.

*******************

Regardless of who Hawke allies with, the result is the same. The Circles turn on the chantry. Hawke's actions in act 3 are insignificant compared to Anders, who actually does succeed in his aim. Hawke is a glorified bystander who may as well have remained some urchin on the street because his/her actions in both previous acts had little to do with the climax. Hawke's actions didn't change Thedas. Anders' did.

********************

I absolutely agree that Hawke's support of one faction or the other have absolutely no bearing on the DAII endgame, and I absolutely agree that it was Anders who changed Thedas.  I reiterate my guess that DAII is setting up for a post-game DLC or DA3 where Hawke's affiliation with either the Templars or the Mages and whether or not they spare Anders will have some bearing on the course of the war.  We just haven't seen the result yet- it's a cliffhanger!

**************************

In Origins the whole werewolves/elves plotline had very little to do with defeating the Archdemon.  It was simply a means for the Warden to gain allies in the coming conflict.  The same could be said for the Circle Tower, Andraste's Ashes/Arl Eamon, and the Orzammar succession.  None of them relate directly to killing the Archdemon- it's about gathering allies and power for the coming conflict.  Ditto for the three Acts in DAII.

Yes, they do. The reason you go to each of those places in DA:O is because you're building an army. Each of those questlines are directly related to defeating the archdemon at the end of the game, and solving each group's issues are for the purpose of having that army to begin with. The Urn of Sacred Ashes especially so because it's Arl Eamon's support that brings down Loghain in the Landsmeet.

*****************

But my point is that it doesn't matter which side you choose.  Side with the elves and kill the werewolves- save the werewolves and kill Zathrian.  Save Connor or don't.  Destroy the Anvil of the Void, or don't.  Side with Harrowmont or Bhelen, wipe the remaining mages from the Tower or save them.  Either way the result is the same- the Warden builds an army and kills the Archdemon.  It's exactly the same as siding with either the Mages or Templars in DAII- it doesn't matter which side you choose because the end result is the same.


*****************

The Warden was no less an everyman thn Hawke. You're attributing a lack of choice, clearly a matter of the limited development cycle, to an artistic choice. No, that's wrong. In real life, you have INFINITE choice. There's no difference between Captain Kirk and Ensign Ricky besides the fact that Kirk is smarter, more skilled, and has more experience.

I agree that the Warden starts out as an Everyman.  But they quickly become a Warden, the stuff of legends, a member of an ancient order sworn to defeat endless evil in an epic struggle to the death.  The fact that everyone refers to the Warden by their title instead of their name or race clearly demonstrates the rank they pull.  The difference is not in the person, intrinsically, but rather in how they are treated by everyone else.  Despite Loghain's outlawing of the Wardens in DA:O, the treaties and past histories that each faction have with the Warden earn a certain amount of respect and deference.  Even the quartermaster at Ostagar demonstrates this- my elf!PC got a "hey, you elf, why are you dressed up like that, go fetch me a coffee, slave" comment until they said "I'm a Grey Warden, b**ch," at which point the Quartermaster falls all over himself to apologize.

Each faction basically says "I'd absolutely help you, you know, based on those treaties; I just have a little problem that prevents me from doing so because..." and then the Warden steps in to solve the problems personally.

Hawke doesn't have rank of any kind to pull until Act II, when they have money, and moreso in Act III, when they have the title of Champion.  In fact everything Hawke gets, they earn through personal valor, friendship, and sometimes luck.

Anyway, my main point about the two PCs being differentiated by Awsum!God powers is that the Warden doesn't have any difficult choices.  If you save the werewolves, the only person who dies is Zathrian, and he goes to it with grace.  The only difference between siding with werewolves vs. siding with elves is that you save more people.  Save Connor, or don't- the only difference is that you SAVE MORE PEOPLE.  Save the mages, or don't- the only result is that you SAVE MORE PEOPLE.  There's no sacrifice.  Even with the Archdemon, you have the Dark Ritual to make everything turn out fine and dandy.

In DAII, the choices you make almost always involve sacrifice.  Take your sib into the Deep Roads?  Better take Anders too.  Don't take your sib?  Too bad.  Any way you choose, you lose- it's simply a matter of which choice is the lesser of three evils.  And sometimes there is no resolution, as in All That Remains.  There is no good choice, there is no way to save more people.  You try, you fail, you experience loss and grief.  Bioware didn't pull any punches in DAII, and I loved that.

[katiebour]

eroeru wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

While I am all for more exact prompts in the games, I am able to use the same imagined experience to seperate what is presented by the PC be it silent or Full VO, as long as the the VO is not distractive (eg; profanity, wrong voice, etc).

But if I press the Icon that is supposed to lead to Romance in a game, No; do not need to fight the many paths of conflict to have it fail.

And it feels right to me....

An interesting position, and one I haven't seen yet.
But for me, a game will always need to go through seven regions of hell to be even slightly interesting - while a game obviously cannot be on par with life's many expectancies, difficulties and varied nature - if it leaves you sweating over moving forward then it at least gives a sense of thriving, and that of achievement. This is thanks to the logically-structuredely forseen goal in games - something I personally feel life lacks. 

But although they never really nail this feeling perfectly, as developers have also needs, this should be a goal to making a great game anyway... variety.

I didn't meta at all for my first 3 playthroughs of DAII, and in my second playthrough I tried to romance Fenris.  In my first game, I ended up killing him after he betrayed me at the end (yay for not maxing him out in rivalry or friendship. XD)  I actually failed at romancing him the second time, because I took him along on all of my quests instead of leaving him at home, and played my character in a similar pro-mage vein.  I had so many "+10 approval...-20 approval" situations that I /facepalmed my way through it.  Even with his gifts, I failed to max him out, thus never getting the "Questioning Beliefs" quest in Act III.  Even picking all of the heart options didn't lead to a successful romance XD

Isabela is similarly difficult because she can leave permanently after Act II unless you get her close to maxed.  Anders and Merrill are easy in comparison 

[Das Tentakel]

Elhanan wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

Kirkwall has 4 open 'overland locations' (Hightown, Lowtown, Gallows, Docks), with a few more locations that are accessible (Keep, Disused Tunnel at night etc.). Denerim has two real open overland locations, the Market and the Alienage, with some 'empty' locations serving for scripted encounters and access to some buildings/dungeons (Arl of Redcliffe's estate, Arl of Denerim's palace, Fort Drakon).

In terms of actual 'gaming real estate', Kirkwall is larger. 
[snip]

Add Darktown for DA2, but I generally agree.

Well, Darktown is actually sort of subterranean...and feels like a roomier version ('with a view') of the 'Disused Tunnel' and that of a certain recycled dungeon...

Elhanan wrote... 

And feelings are not that important, as Kirkwall is supposed to depict a homogenous refuge; not the most attractive of sites. Denerim is depicted as more of a home, but it is supposed to do that. And Kirkwall is a city filled to capactity, so much so that people are known to fall from the windows.

Actually, the buildings in Lowtown and the Docks appear to have slits, not windows. Presumably a cunning architectural device to minimize airflow or something. Or sunlight getting in. Whatever.
Kirkwall presumably parks its surplus criminal population on the roofs, and it is from there that they fall of the roof, especially at night, as the people near the roof's edge doze off...

No wonder they are so single-mindedly, even suicidally agressive. Poor Kirkwall criminals:crying:

Elhanan wrote... 
I used Jericho to depict a city known for it's perimeter. And Nineveh was a city with added smaller lands included, like NYC. Plus the three days to search connects the comparison. And just a guess; both may have been known for having stone or mud based wals. Not everything in fantasy need be sparkling spires and fairy dust.

But Kirkwall is not based on Jericho, Nineveh or other ancient Near/Middle Eastern cities. If you want an example of such a city, look at Khemi in Age of Conan. Or a medieval variant in Hatmandor in Two Worlds II.

Kirkwall seems to be much more inspired by this:





(Stalinist architecture, Moscow)

Well, I seem to remember one of the devs calling the city a former 'fantasy gulag' or something, so that kind of fits.

But regarding my view of Kirkwall - I hated the city's guts halfway in Act I. It was a cool idea ('former fantasy gulag') that didn't work out so well. I am currently replaying the first Witcher, and Vizima is such a huge difference that I almost got emotional after I entered it^_^.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 14 mars 2012 - 07:33 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Elhanan wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

At best, Kirkwall is only slightly larger than Denerim.

Then there's EVERYTHING ELSE in DA:O.

So one 'feels' more claustraphobic in the sequel concerning war refugees? Success!

Failure.  

Kirkwall does not feel more claustraphobic, it just feels smaller and emptier.  It's barely bigger than ONE of the MANY locations in DA:O.  There's a barely-changing small collection of people doing little or nothing in the streets, many of them faceless and generic and blury. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

katiebour wrote...

In DAII, the choices you make almost always involve sacrifice.  Take your sib into the Deep Roads?  Better take Anders too.  Don't take your sib?  Too bad.  Any way you choose, you lose- it's simply a matter of which choice is the lesser of three evils.  And sometimes there is no resolution, as in All That Remains.  There is no good choice, there is no way to save more people.  You try, you fail, you experience loss and grief.  Bioware didn't pull any punches in DAII, and I loved that.

In DA2, the choices you make are all too often meaningless, and meaningful action is denied by the design of the game.  You cannot prevent any of the terrible things that happen in DA2, you're just along for the ride.

[Elhanan]

No, the choices YOU may have made may have felt meaningless; mine were fine, and perhaps others as well.

[Pasquale1234]

Elhanan wrote...

And feelings are not that important, as Kirkwall is supposed to depict a homogenous refuge; not the most attractive of sites. Denerim is depicted as more of a home, but it is supposed to do that. And Kirkwall is a city filled to capactity, so much so that people are known to fall from the windows.



I used Jericho to depict a city known for it's perimeter. And Nineveh was a city with added smaller lands included, like NYC. Plus the three days to search connects the comparison. And just a guess; both may have been known for having stone or mud based wals. Not everything in fantasy need be sparkling spires and fairy dust.

I've always been a bit uncertain about some of the textures used in Kirkwall.  Example: Some of the HIghtown Mansions have floor tiles coming up, and it looks like they were backed by poured concrete, which is not something I would expect to see in a medieval sort of setting.  Also, I've never quite figured out what the interior wall material throughout Lowtown is supposed to represent - it appears to be some sort of grooved pattern, too big to be wood grain, and it is also not flat.  If anyone has any theories about what that stuff is supposed to be, I would love to hear them.

[Pasquale1234]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

In DA2, the choices you make are all too often meaningless, and meaningful action is denied by the design of the game.  You cannot prevent any of the terrible things that happen in DA2, you're just along for the ride.

The fact that it is all a story being told doesn't help to assuage that feeling.

[Das Tentakel]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

And feelings are not that important, as Kirkwall is supposed to depict a homogenous refuge; not the most attractive of sites. Denerim is depicted as more of a home, but it is supposed to do that. And Kirkwall is a city filled to capactity, so much so that people are known to fall from the windows.



I used Jericho to depict a city known for it's perimeter. And Nineveh was a city with added smaller lands included, like NYC. Plus the three days to search connects the comparison. And just a guess; both may have been known for having stone or mud based wals. Not everything in fantasy need be sparkling spires and fairy dust.

I've always been a bit uncertain about some of the textures used in Kirkwall.  Example: Some of the HIghtown Mansions have floor tiles coming up, and it looks like they were backed by poured concrete, which is not something I would expect to see in a medieval sort of setting.  Also, I've never quite figured out what the interior wall material throughout Lowtown is supposed to represent - it appears to be some sort of grooved pattern, too big to be wood grain, and it is also not flat.  If anyone has any theories about what that stuff is supposed to be, I would love to hear them.

The thing is not so much that it looks like concrete - both the Romans and the Mayas had forms of concrete, so why not the peoples of Thedas - but that what you are seeing look suspiciously like the concrete blocks you see on parking lots, some road sections etc, rather than a floor of a single 'block' of poured concrete that you would expect in a building.

The DA2 artists did use 'real' objects before as a model, so perhaps they did the same with these slabs of concrete.

As for the wood pattern, I am not entirely sure but it may have been an attempt to emulate some kind of naturally patterned stone, like these caverns near Petra, Jordan:



Especially if you consider that the buildings with the 'wood' pattern were hacked out of the rock, at least according to the Codex. If so, the problem may be that the texture itself was too simple and too regular, meaning that it doesn't look all that much like patterned rock, but instead...wood:blink:

[Pasquale1234]

That makes sense - thanks!

[seraphymon]

Elhanan wrote...

No, the choices YOU may have made may have felt meaningless; mine were fine, and perhaps others as well.

perhaps his choice of using meaningful or meaningless isnt correct, but perhaps its because there was lack of consequence of choice,  no matter what you choose ends up the same. Which is meaningless to him, even if you and other enjoyed it.

Honestly i felt  that the majority  of giving us any choice was pointless, just for a slightly different cutscene. But they have already acknowledged this so well see what happens.

[Kavatica]

seraphymon wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

No, the choices YOU may have made may have felt meaningless; mine were fine, and perhaps others as well.

perhaps his choice of using meaningful or meaningless isnt correct, but perhaps its because there was lack of consequence of choice,  no matter what you choose ends up the same. Which is meaningless to him, even if you and other enjoyed it.

Honestly i felt  that the majority  of giving us any choice was pointless, just for a slightly different cutscene. But they have already acknowledged this so well see what happens.

I felt like the consequences of my choices were huge in this game. Every single quest that Hawke goes on has an impact somewhere down the line, good or ill, as Aveline would say. It is true that no matter what you do, you can't change the outcome of the game. But I find that kind of interesting. Let's be honest, in real life, can you stop certain things from happening? No. You just have to roll with the punches and deal with the consequences of the decisions you have made, and the decisions that others make.

[HanErlik]

I supported mages in most cases but I sided with Templars in the end. What did I change? Nothing. If I had done the opposite, the result would be still the same. Bioware tried to cover up this failure with "destiny" explanation but it didn't work. Because we meant to be the champion, someone who would change the world. If our protagonist had been a humble templar or a mage apperantice I could gladly accept it. It would be something truly innonative. But now Hawke is the so-called "champion" and all he/she can change is whom he/she romance.

[eroeru]

@Kavatica

But you can make YOUR choices. Out of an infinity of possibilities.

As Hawke I didn't get to do one choice. I got to do quests, sure, but that's hardly enough for any kind of role-play.

[Kavatica]

eroeru wrote...

@Kavatica

But you can make YOUR choices. Out of an infinity of possibilities.

As Hawke I didn't get to do one choice. I got to do quests, sure, but that's hardly enough for any kind of role-play.

I know what you are saying. And I agree that in DAO you had quite a few more options as far as maniuplating what would happen as you completed each quest. But the storyline was still set for you - you still had to get all 4 armies on your side to complete the game. The archdemon was still coming for you, either way. There were other things that were beyond your control, or where you were forced to choose between two options during the game.

The story in DAO was obviously much deeper than DA2, but I personally still enjoyed the story in DA2 and the part that my character played in it. Just my opinion. Obviously not expecting that to be true for everyone.

[Kavatica]

HanErlik wrote...

I supported mages in most cases but I sided with Templars in the end. What did I change? Nothing. If I had done the opposite, the result would be still the same. Bioware tried to cover up this failure with "destiny" explanation but it didn't work. Because we meant to be the champion, someone who would change the world. If our protagonist had been a humble templar or a mage apperantice I could gladly accept it. It would be something truly innonative. But now Hawke is the so-called "champion" and all he/she can change is whom he/she romance.

I have noticed some other differences if you choose to pick a side throughout the game - you are given slightly different quests at certain points based on which side you are supporting. But the differences are slight. And yes, the ending is the same no matter what you do, which is frustrating. Agreed. I didn't feel like me being champion had much to do with this though - because the story is one that Varric (or Bioware, if that's how you want to look at it) is telling. So no matter what everything you do is happening within the parameters of that story and is therefore the story of how a champion was involved in a world-changing event.

Modifié par Kavatica, 15 mars 2012 - 12:34 .

[seraphymon]

Kavatica wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

No, the choices YOU may have made may have felt meaningless; mine were fine, and perhaps others as well.

perhaps his choice of using meaningful or meaningless isnt correct, but perhaps its because there was lack of consequence of choice,  no matter what you choose ends up the same. Which is meaningless to him, even if you and other enjoyed it.

Honestly i felt  that the majority  of giving us any choice was pointless, just for a slightly different cutscene. But they have already acknowledged this so well see what happens.

I felt like the consequences of my choices were huge in this game. Every single quest that Hawke goes on has an impact somewhere down the line, good or ill, as Aveline would say. It is true that no matter what you do, you can't change the outcome of the game. But I find that kind of interesting. Let's be honest, in real life, can you stop certain things from happening? No. You just have to roll with the punches and deal with the consequences of the decisions you have made, and the decisions that others make.

Sure the final outcome of the game would be mostly the same, but majority of the choices dont affect much in terms of life changing or world changing. Yes there is a few, but most is just getting a litghly different cutscene with different words. or by chance that you get a different path for a certain quest outcome stil lthe same. Such as sparing people or different ways to track down your mother.
When the consequences are the same why choose? Even when one can argue that DAO was similar in this regard, the difference is , at least i think it hid it better. The illusion was done better. its funny when i remember the advertising to DA2 was  rise to power where the story builds on decisions you make.. Or something like that. Either way, this is one of the things im glad bioware acknowledge of the lack of consequence of choice. One example they gave was the quest with Leandra. Which of course is true.