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Is it at least accepted that DA2 went the wrong direction?


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#26
FedericoV

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batlin wrote...

I mean, selling half as many copies in the first 10 weeks as DA:O is pretty telling. And half of those copies were bought in only the first week, likely due to fans of DA:O not knowing what they were getting. Yeah, there are those that prefer DA2 over DA:O but it's pretty obvious these people are in the minority.

Last I heard, Bioware is getting inspiration from Skyrim for DA3. Has there been any other news of what they'll do with it? Because taking pages out of Bethesda's book would definitely be a good thing for DA.


DA3 will be a more polished and organic version of DA2 imho: that's what we should reasonably expect. They cannot return to the DA:O model anymore because the brillant mind of the marketing department (authors of memorable lines like "awesome and button combined in DA2") do not consider it a viable commercial choice. That's because the DA:O's model is not easy to implement correctly on the consolle medium where most of the money is made in those day and age. Simply put, you cannot play Baldur's Gate with a controller and ISO view do not coexist well with the Twilight cinematic approach of late Bioware's games. Don't forget the ceiling. Such wonderfull ceilings in DA2 :D.

#27
TEWR

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Yea. I know it exists in some people certainly but I don't think it's the major reason why people were disappointed with DAII. Did that maybe factor into some peoples' dislike of it? More then likely.

For me though, I distanced myself from the idea of "Is it like DAO?" and really just focused on the idea of "Will this be an amazing game?"

It wasn't. Admittedly, I liked it when I first started it up because of the new flashy combat -- sometimes I'm simple =P -- but as I progressed throughout the game I was just continuously mindboggled.

Then when I put it down after beating the game -- to which I began shouting at my TV. I made it cry -- I compared it to DAO and realized it was worse then I thought, simply because DAO was better in many areas.

#28
Das Tentakel

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Filament wrote...

How it's defined likely depends on the person using the term, and which aspects of DAO they valued which didn't carry over into DA2 like they wanted. Voiceless protagonist, art style, origins, the Warden, crafting, skills, etc etc.

Now, in honesty here, I've agreed with you that to summarize all of the dissatisfaction with DA2 as "just wanted more DAO" is not a fair assessment, but I still find it .. questionable when people insist the sentiment is altogether some kind of myth, when it so evidently exists.


DA:O (and by extension, earlier Bioware classics like Baldur's Gate I and II) is the natural comparison material, being the first game in the franchise and Bioware's last fantasy RPG before DA2. It's logical that people who loved, or at least liked DA:O, compare DA2 negatively with the first game in the franchise.

Whether they really want 'merely' an improved DA:O (or perhaps more precisely, whether they really would like such a game) is another question. I agree that the sentiment itself exists and is an honest one, but whether that would have been wise I am not sure. Personally I think DA:O is a good and enjoyable game, but I certainly did not love it to death, and I do not think I am the only one. I have heard similar sentiments from other people (friends, colleagues) who bought DA:O.
Merely fine-tuning the formula may very well have been a game of diminishing returns, with only a section of DA:O's playerbase buying DAO:2, only a section of the DAO:2 playerbase buying DAO:3, etc. 

I am currently of the opinion that Bioware rightly recognised much of what could be improved in DA:O, and I get the impression that they very much were aware of the need to evolve the game in order to keep, and if possible expand, the playerbase. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, they completely botched their 'solution'. When your sequel sells comparatively poorly and is very divisive among the fans, you've done something seriously wrong. They seem to partly acknowledge it, but I don't think we should expect anything more. That is not the way big companies work, it takes a strong and unusual leadership figure to actually come clean on that.

As for what I wanted, I sort of burned out on the rather bland, repetitive environments and combat in DA:O almost at the end of my first playthrough, and only finished it in a second playthrough much later. When I first heard about DA2, I was hoping for a substantially different game, that would adress at least three issues (bland, repetitive environments, repetitive combat, claustrophobic corridors-and-rooms environments). Instead, I got a game that was actually worse in these three respects, while adding a confused narrative as a fourth issue.

Luckily I was warned by the demo, and combined by the fact that I merely liked, not loved, DA:O, I was able to wait until it ended up in the bargain bin. And then it STILL got me angry. It made me feel as if a studio I respected followed a flawed but promising first game by a poorly conceived and executed sequel. The only thing that might make me angrier would be if Bethesda botched Elder Scrolls VI, or CDProjekt The Witcher III.

Man, when I read about Kirkwall this and that, I had, for a very short time, a vision of murderous city-state intrigues and a place rich in local colour, a mix of Gent, Venice, Lubeck, Carthage and Lankhmar all thrown in one. Instead I got a feeble attempt at a Stalinist Gothic fantasy gulag. :crying:

#29
Wulfram

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Well, apparently not since ME3 seems to have gone far further in removing player control of the PC

#30
Das Tentakel

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FedericoV wrote...

batlin wrote...

I mean, selling half as many copies in the first 10 weeks as DA:O is pretty telling. And half of those copies were bought in only the first week, likely due to fans of DA:O not knowing what they were getting. Yeah, there are those that prefer DA2 over DA:O but it's pretty obvious these people are in the minority.

Last I heard, Bioware is getting inspiration from Skyrim for DA3. Has there been any other news of what they'll do with it? Because taking pages out of Bethesda's book would definitely be a good thing for DA.


DA3 will be a more polished and organic version of DA2 imho: that's what we should reasonably expect. They cannot return to the DA:O model anymore because the brillant mind of the marketing department (authors of memorable lines like "awesome and button combined in DA2") do not consider it a viable commercial choice. That's because the DA:O's model is not easy to implement correctly on the consolle medium where most of the money is made in those day and age. Simply put, you cannot play Baldur's Gate with a controller and ISO view do not coexist well with the Twilight cinematic approach of late Bioware's games. Don't forget the ceiling. Such wonderfull ceilings in DA2 :D.


Not just that, but I am reminded of what Swen Vincke, of Larian Studios (Divine Divinity, Dragon Knight Saga) wrote about sales guys...

We actually did make it to several green-light committees of top 10 publishers, I even sat in on a few of them to present my games,  but we never managed to sign with any of them, so obviously something went wrong. Other than occasionally having to deal with idiots, the biggest common hurdle I found has always been the marketing department. I’ve learnt that in general these people don’t like RPGs. They just don’t get it.

In general marketeers want a simple USP (unique selling proposition) that differentiates your game from the competition. That’s not rocket science, but it’s obviously something that’s very hard to define in a game where it’s all about the whole being larger than the sum of the individual features. That a lot of these individual smaller features are different doesn’t matter to them, they want something big, preferably something not done before. They also want stunning visuals & animation, which is again very hard, if only for the freedom and wealth of options you need to offer players in a RPG. One of the consequences of that is that is that you can’t use a whole bunch of the tricks available to FPS developers, and obviously the RPG suffers in visual comparison.

The reason marketeers want a strong USP and plenty of visual polish is obviously that they think that that’s what’s required to make good sales, and unfortunately (or actually fortunately) their imaginations weren’t triggered by the visions I tried to communicate to them. I’ve tried everything I could think of that by telling them that in a good RPG it’s the detail and the heart that’s put in that counts, and that if they were to sign on, we’d have the budget to put the polish in there that they were looking for, but to no avail. I tried the sales angle, showing them figures for Bioware & Bethesda RPGs, arguing that with our unique take on the genre and the same budgets we could give them stellar sales, but it just didn’t work..


Anyone who doesn't know Swen's excellent blog, it's here:
www.lar.net/

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 03 mars 2012 - 10:27 .


#31
zyntifox

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Das Tentakel wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

batlin wrote...

I mean, selling half as many copies in the first 10 weeks as DA:O is pretty telling. And half of those copies were bought in only the first week, likely due to fans of DA:O not knowing what they were getting. Yeah, there are those that prefer DA2 over DA:O but it's pretty obvious these people are in the minority.

Last I heard, Bioware is getting inspiration from Skyrim for DA3. Has there been any other news of what they'll do with it? Because taking pages out of Bethesda's book would definitely be a good thing for DA.


DA3 will be a more polished and organic version of DA2 imho: that's what we should reasonably expect. They cannot return to the DA:O model anymore because the brillant mind of the marketing department (authors of memorable lines like "awesome and button combined in DA2") do not consider it a viable commercial choice. That's because the DA:O's model is not easy to implement correctly on the consolle medium where most of the money is made in those day and age. Simply put, you cannot play Baldur's Gate with a controller and ISO view do not coexist well with the Twilight cinematic approach of late Bioware's games. Don't forget the ceiling. Such wonderfull ceilings in DA2 :D.


Not just that, but I am reminded of what Swen Vincke, of Larian Studios (Divine Divinity, Dragon Knight Saga) wrote about sales guys...

We actually did make it to several green-light committees of top 10 publishers, I even sat in on a few of them to present my games,  but we never managed to sign with any of them, so obviously something went wrong. Other than occasionally having to deal with idiots, the biggest common hurdle I found has always been the marketing department. I’ve learnt that in general these people don’t like RPGs. They just don’t get it.

In general marketeers want a simple USP (unique selling proposition) that differentiates your game from the competition. That’s not rocket science, but it’s obviously something that’s very hard to define in a game where it’s all about the whole being larger than the sum of the individual features. That a lot of these individual smaller features are different doesn’t matter to them, they want something big, preferably something not done before. They also want stunning visuals & animation, which is again very hard, if only for the freedom and wealth of options you need to offer players in a RPG. One of the consequences of that is that is that you can’t use a whole bunch of the tricks available to FPS developers, and obviously the RPG suffers in visual comparison.

The reason marketeers want a strong USP and plenty of visual polish is obviously that they think that that’s what’s required to make good sales, and unfortunately (or actually fortunately) their imaginations weren’t triggered by the visions I tried to communicate to them. I’ve tried everything I could think of that by telling them that in a good RPG it’s the detail and the heart that’s put in that counts, and that if they were to sign on, we’d have the budget to put the polish in there that they were looking for, but to no avail. I tried the sales angle, showing them figures for Bioware & Bethesda RPGs, arguing that with our unique take on the genre and the same budgets we could give them stellar sales, but it just didn’t work..


Anyone who doesn't know Swen's excellent blog, it's here:
www.lar.net/



So... Moral of the story is marketing people are evil?
Being an economist/mathmetician that only validates my theory i've been building from six years at the university working beside them. :)

Modifié par Cstaf, 03 mars 2012 - 10:43 .


#32
Uccio

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Yes. DA2 was such a disappointment after O that I can still feel the pain. If I could choose which direction to take it would be Origins. However, what happens I will not buy another DA2. If I do it will be from discount box. I am also proud to inform that I have talked four people out of buying DA2. These people liked O as much as I did and as first one to buy it it was my duty to prevent more accidents to happen. Later they agreed with me after seeing my copy of the game.

#33
batlin

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bleetman wrote...

I find sales figures kind of weird for gauging how many people liked something. You can't reverse time and un-buy a product if you turn out to not enjoy it very much. Overall sales figures don't really tell you anything about how many people bought something and then liked it. It's not as if everyone who bought DA:O loved it to bits, either.


Your explanation only refers to people who bought the game right away. Those who would have bought the game in week 2, week 3, etc. would have seen reviews for the game and been like "Oh, I guess I'm not picking this up"

CrustyBot wrote...

No. It is generally accepted however, that Dragon Age 2 is taking BioWare in an innovative direction and that those who dislike it are just people who can't handle change or technological progress.


Lol, "innovative"? Tell me, what did Dragon Age 2 do that Mass Effect hadn't? Also, the graphics were worse. Way less polygons. Also, Red Red Redemption was a huge innovative step forward from Red Dead Revolver, how come that game wasn't panned by critics? Unless, *gasp*, people don't care about change so long as you give them a good game.

DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

No and, lower sales for DA2 may have been because those who bought and did not like DAO didn't buy DA2 at all. Sales have nothing to do with like or dislike. I buy things I KNOW I don't like because, I need them, they are for a gift, my family or guests like them etc... Sales mean only that it was marketed well and readily available, not that it was liked or disliked.


DA2 was far heavier marketed than DA:O. There were commercials for it all over the place. On billboards, buses, etc. And it was in no less supply than DA:O. It had MORE supply, in fact, if they were truly expecting 4.5 million sales.

CrustyBot wrote...

They're jumping on the bandwagon of disgruntled fans who were upset that they couldn't shag Morrigan or play the Warden in Dragon Age 2. These fans, mostly trolls from 4chan and RPG Codex, went on a vendetta to poison public opinion of Dragon Age 2.

Dragon Age 2 was one of the most amazing games to come out in 2011, but fans who had a misalignment of expectations ruined things for BioWare by spamming metacritic. It didn't impact the sales much though - that was Origins' fault.

As previously proven, people didn't like Origins and that's why DA 2's sales were so low in comparison to Dragon Age: Origins.


So every reviewer out there guages their opinion on what fans think, not on what they think? And if people didn't like Origins, youd have seen a plummet in sales after the first week like with DA2. DA:O however saw huge sales long after the first week. In fact it is BECAUSE DA2's opening week was so successful that it can be accepted that people were excited for the game BECAUSE of DA:O. After all, DA:O was all consumers could go on as to DA2's quality. Sorry, but your blanket statements are abjectly false

Modifié par batlin, 03 mars 2012 - 11:18 .


#34
Monica83

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Its easy ask around this:

Is dragon age 2 a masterpiece? An unforgettable RPG? A game with the destiny to stay in history like a legend?

And then count the people that laugth you in face after that question..

Dragon age 2 is also recognised as a disappointing game and a rushed one and you have just to look around to see how many people dislikes it...

About being people afraid to change or that dislike innovation (i don't see how dragon age 2 is innovative)..

Call people that dislike the game in that way its just dumb.. You can't blame people that dislikes a poor executed and a poor of content rushed game full of bugs and call them people that are afraid to change! its just trolling...

There are people around that liked dragon age 2.. I personaly consider it a masterpiece of garbage.. But there are people that liked it an i accepted it.. Its just a matter of tastes..

The true hate is born because they don't started a new IP.. They just taked a sequel and turned in something completely different..

It's normal if some costumer are in anger,,And honestly i hope bioware learned the lession.. But i doubt it... I know EA

Modifié par Monica83, 03 mars 2012 - 11:18 .


#35
JeeWeeJ

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Ukki wrote...

Yes. DA2 was such a disappointment after O that I can still feel the pain. If I could choose which direction to take it would be Origins. However, what happens I will not buy another DA2. If I do it will be from discount box. I am also proud to inform that I have talked four people out of buying DA2. These people liked O as much as I did and as first one to buy it it was my duty to prevent more accidents to happen. Later they agreed with me after seeing my copy of the game.

Saddens me to say it, but same thing happened here. I talked two friends out of it while another had already preorderd his copy. All were big fans of Origins and none of them liked DA2 when they ultimately saw or played it.

And no, Origins was certainly not a perfect game. It was a DIFFERENT sort of game though! Slower, deeper, more realistic, more choice and consequences while DA2 was to me more like some buttonmasher actiongame with a flimsy story draped over it. [EDIT]And don't forget the HUGE swords and exploding bodies! Can't forget to mention that! Image IPB [/EDIT] And is this what we call a sequel???? No, spinoff might be a better term here.

So yes. I am one of those people who keeps asking for DAO2. Because I'd rather see a more polished and perfected Origins kind of game than some strage bastard son type of game like DA2 which has to do pretty much EVERYTHING different. And that 180 degree turn that they made is what put me off from DA2. And if DA3 is like it, then no, i will not buy it. As much as that saddens me to say.

Modifié par JeeWeeJ, 03 mars 2012 - 11:14 .


#36
Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut

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CrustyBot wrote...

They're jumping on the bandwagon of disgruntled fans who were upset that they couldn't shag Morrigan or play the Warden in Dragon Age 2. These fans, mostly trolls from 4chan and RPG Codex, went on a vendetta to poison public opinion of Dragon Age 2.

Dragon Age 2 was one of the most amazing games to come out in 2011, but fans who had a misalignment of expectations ruined things for BioWare by spamming metacritic. It didn't impact the sales much though - that was Origins' fault.

As previously proven, people didn't like Origins and that's why DA 2's sales were so low in comparison to Dragon Age: Origins.


:lol::lol::lol:

Spot-on, man. Spot-on.

#37
bEVEsthda

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Whether Bioware have accepted that DA2 went into the wrong direction, is something that would/should be very hard to discern, simply from how companies think they have to behave, by PR perspective, in situations like these.

I don't think this question will be fully answered until DA3 is released.

My own view is that already DA:O went about 50 degrees off into the wrong direction. It should have been much more like Baldur's Gate. More strategic tie-ins. More affinity to simulation than some simple, formulaic console-platformer-gameplay paradigm. DA:O was still the most enjoyable game to come from Bioware since the mentioned BG. My opinion of DA2, is that many changes from DA:O were despicable, many of them game-breaking, so yes, definitely "wrong direction".

Bioware can recognize that their concept wasn't as successful as they had convinced themselves it would be, and that many "old fans" were disgruntled, without admitting or accepting that the new direction was a mistake. They can reason that they only have to fix a few things, improve some things, add some new things, and then they will regain the favor of their "old fans".

Personally, I cannot say in advance that I won't find such a game enjoyable enough. Certainly, it's possible for a game to contain features which I find very unattractive, and still entertain me enough. It wouldn't be the game I really want, but I cannot say in advance that it wouldn't be "good enough". It might be.
But from the outset, a concept like the "best of DA2 and DA:O" is scary. What is "the best of DA2"? There is nothing.

What is very worrying is that some "flaws" of DA2 (like reused environments) have got a lot of attention. My greatest fear is that Bioware concludes that they just have to fix those and add polish. This is why I have repeatedly tried to warn about listening only to those complaints which DA2-defenders/fans agree with. Surely, it seems logical enough that such actions won't fix anything at all, with the issues DA2 had with the DA2-haters. Which is really the main problem DA2 had.
Yet, I cannot read in anything between the lines, of whatever feedback we have got from Bioware, that hints that Bioware is doing anything but just that: Listening only to the complaints DA2-fans agree with, and still listening to whatever "vision" originally caused the DA2 disaster. They may feel they have no choice. That they have to use ready assets developed for DA2.
 
It's as if the mediocre market performance of every game that goes in this general direction (there are others, like KoA, and soon ME3) means nothing. And as if the spectacular market performance of games which don't, like TES and Witcher, also means nothing.
 
As if someone thinks it's just flukes, that he knows better. The real quality of the game is how "kewl" and "fun" it's supposed to be perceived as? All we gamers want is compartmentalized, simplistic, spectacular combat so we can feel awesome, and then be told a story on the side? And no chance, ever, of frustration? ...And gaudy colors, and leveling up, as some kind of dutiful formality, which never changes anything about the gameplay's character? Is that it?

#38
Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut

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bEVEsthda wrote...

What is very worrying is that some "flaws" of DA2 (like reused environments) have got a lot of attention. My greatest fear is that Bioware concludes that they just have to fix those and add polish. This is why I have repeatedly tried to warn about listening only to those complaints which DA2-defenders/fans agree with. Is that it?


This is a good point. Reused environments are a very small problem next to writing that simply wasn't final-draft quality.

Although to be fair most of the bad design decisions in DA2 come off (to me, at least) as the result of the game being rushed, not as the result of a bad concept. Even the biggest weaknesses of the game (the storytelling method, the combat system, Merrill, etc.) are good ideas on paper.

#39
JeeWeeJ

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First off, very good post bEVEsthda, my compliments!Image IPB

bEVEsthda wrote...

Whether Bioware have accepted that DA2 went into the wrong direction, is something that would/should be very hard to discern, simply from how companies think they have to behave, by PR perspective, in situations like these.

I don't think this question will be fully answered until DA3 is released.

Lets just hope that PAX panel sheds some light in the darkness about that...

bEVEsthda wrote...
My own view is that already DA:O went about 50 degrees off into the wrong direction. It should have been much more like Baldur's Gate. More strategic tie-ins. More affinity to simulation than some simple, formulaic console-platformer-gameplay paradigm. DA:O was still the most enjoyable game to come from Bioware since the mentioned BG. My opinion of DA2, is that many changes from DA:O were despicable, many of them game-breaking, so yes, definitely "wrong direction".

Totally agree, DAO wasnt perfect, it had many flaws indeed, but you could still recognise parts of the BG heritage in it. Which was awesome.

bEVEsthda wrote...
Bioware can recognize that their concept wasn't as successful as they had convinced themselves it would be, and that many "old fans" were disgruntled, without admitting or accepting that the new direction was a mistake. They can reason that they only have to fix a few things, improve some things, add some new things, and then they will regain the favor of their "old fans".

Personally, I cannot say in advance that I won't find such a game enjoyable enough. Certainly, it's possible for a game to contain features which I find very unattractive, and still entertain me enough. It wouldn't be the game I really want, but I cannot say in advance that it wouldn't be "good enough". It might be.
But from the outset, a concept like the "best of DA2 and DA:O" is scary. What is "the best of DA2"? There is nothing.

What is very worrying is that some "flaws" of DA2 (like reused environments) have got a lot of attention. My greatest fear is that Bioware concludes that they just have to fix those and add polish. This is why I have repeatedly tried to warn about listening only to those complaints which DA2-defenders/fans agree with. Surely, it seems logical enough that such actions won't fix anything at all, with the issues DA2 had with the DA2-haters. Which is really the main problem DA2 had.
Yet, I cannot read in anything between the lines, of whatever feedback we have got from Bioware, that hints that Bioware is doing anything but just that: Listening only to the complaints DA2-fans agree with, and still listening to whatever "vision" originally caused the DA2 disaster. They may feel they have no choice. That they have to use ready assets developed for DA2.

You hit the nail on the head here, and this is what scares me the most. I love the Dragon Age universe, although I loathed DA2. But of everything that came out of Bioware since, nothing has even taken a little bit of that fear away. The mention of Skyrim also struck me as odd. Skyrim is a completely different kind of RPG. Its a sandbox where the Bioware RPG's of old were like novels. You had a clearly defined beginning and end, and you could mess around a bit in the middle. And absolutely nothing has even hinted at that Bioware took the bigger issues the old fans had with DA2 to heart. I would rather have Bioware say  "sorry guys, we're not making old style RPG's any more and only do action-RPGs now" than have another DA2.5 which pleases as much people as it displeases.

Hybrids between the two just don't work IMHO.

bEVEsthda wrote...
It's as if the mediocre market performance of every game that goes in this general direction (there are others, like KoA, and soon ME3) means nothing. And as if the spectacular market performance of games which don't, like TES and Witcher, also means nothing.
 
As if someone thinks it's just flukes, that he knows better. The real quality of the game is how "kewl" and "fun" it's supposed to be perceived as? All we gamers want is compartmentalized, simplistic, spectacular combat so we can feel awesome, and then be told a story on the side? And no chance, ever, of frustration? ...And gaudy colors, and leveling up, as some kind of dutiful formality, which never changes anything about the gameplay's character? Is that it?

Don't forget the awesome-button.. Games of today can't work without one anymore. But I totally agree. It's like saying that the market only wants Transformer movies now with lots of explosions and boobs and that movies like the Lord of the Rings or Inception with complexer stories just won't sell anymore.

Modifié par JeeWeeJ, 03 mars 2012 - 12:56 .


#40
Uccio

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^ Well said guys.

#41
Das Tentakel

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Well...

The repetitive environments were a big issue for me, but they already were, to a lesser extent, in DA:O.
But I also regard them as a symptom, rather than a cause, of real structural problems in how Bioware approached DA, and maybe ME as well. The 'problems' are probably more than just environments.

I think that what I missed in DA2 (and already missed in DA:O to some extent) is a relentless drive for quality, not just 'widening the appeal' or 'improving obvious flaws'. It's not just a matter of a few months of extra development time or mere polish. It's the lack of a will (but maybe also the ability) to excel, a 'Wille zur Macht'  regarding the RPG genre.

Instead, I sense mainly a partly marketing-driven desire to increase sales by way of genre-blending and cinematics. Beyond a certain point, a dangerous course I feel...:blink:

Image IPB

#42
Jerrybnsn

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DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

 lower sales for DA2 may have been because those who bought and did not like DAO didn't buy DA2 at all.


Considering that DA2 had roughly seven hundred thousand pre-orders, it shows that Dragon Age Origins was very well liked.  Also, there was an article a couple of weeks after DA2's release that Bioware congratulated itself on DA2 outselling Origins in its first two weeks, but you have to admit that a large part of that was because of pre-sales based on Origins performance.  

No, DA2 only ended up selling a 1/3 of what Origins did because it was a bad game.

#43
K_Tabris

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Isn't it funny that if people enjoy an unpopular game, there opinions are wrong, and the company that made them 'went in a wrong direction'. Unfortunately, to appeal to the whining masses, the Dragon Age team may be forced to admit that DA2 wasn't an awesome game.

Jade Empire and Dragon Age 2 are in my top five games of all time. Jade Empire, particularly represents the best of Bioware, story, choice, characters (maybe not setting, but I disagree). Creating an rpg with a framed narrative was not a wrong or bad move, it was just a new way of story-telling, one that I think was pulled off nicely.

#44
Barrendall

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Story-wise I enjoyed DAII immensely. Yes, the recycled maps and the over-the-top melee animations were a little annoying but I didn't let it ruin my rpg experience. (The mage animations were an improvement however) I settled it in my head to enjoy the story and my choices as much as possible and ergo I wasn't disappointed.

#45
bEVEsthda

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NovinhaShepard wrote...

Isn't it funny that if people enjoy an unpopular game, there opinions are wrong, and the company that made them 'went in a wrong direction'. Unfortunately, to appeal to the whining masses, the Dragon Age team may be forced to admit that DA2 wasn't an awesome game.

Jade Empire and Dragon Age 2 are in my top five games of all time. Jade Empire, particularly represents the best of Bioware, story, choice, characters (maybe not setting, but I disagree). Creating an rpg with a framed narrative was not a wrong or bad move, it was just a new way of story-telling, one that I think was pulled off nicely.


Well, when you start to hang up on "wrong", I think you've lost the context?
"Wrong" doesn't come out of a vacuum and isn't something absolute by itself. The "new direction" that was chosen for DA2 had a very specific purpose: To increase the sales of DA2. Since the chosen direction actually accomplished the opposite of intended, it was obviously "wrong".

#46
AlexXIV

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Tbh I really think those vocal 'I love DA2' people are probably all about romances. Kind of funny how one relatively small portion of content can mean everything to some people. That said, yes, it is commonly accepted that they went too far, if not in the wrong direction. Of course if you expect that everyone here one the forums agrees on anything then you could not be more wrong, so yes, there will be alot of people defending DA2 to the last breath. But I think you don't need to be a genius or the most unbiased person in the world if you just look at the plain facts and know that DA2 suffered from a rushed development because obviously somehow there was not enough time/money to polish the game like a sequel of DA:O deserved.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 mars 2012 - 03:01 .


#47
zyntifox

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NovinhaShepard wrote...

Isn't it funny that if people enjoy an unpopular game, there opinions are wrong, and the company that made them 'went in a wrong direction'. Unfortunately, to appeal to the whining masses, the Dragon Age team may be forced to admit that DA2 wasn't an awesome game.

Jade Empire and Dragon Age 2 are in my top five games of all time. Jade Empire, particularly represents the best of Bioware, story, choice, characters (maybe not setting, but I disagree). Creating an rpg with a framed narrative was not a wrong or bad move, it was just a new way of story-telling, one that I think was pulled off nicely.


Well i defintly think that BioWare went the wrong way and that DA2 is no where near as good as the first one. Obviously wether a game is good or not is subjective. I don't think that people who enjoyed DA2 are wrong, i just think they enjoy other aspects of a game than i do. I haven't gotten the sense from the "DA2 haters" on these boards that they are so full of themselves that they can't understand some people enjoying the approach BioWare went with this game.

Modifié par Cstaf, 03 mars 2012 - 03:09 .


#48
Xilizhra

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2's direction was far more ambitious, innovative and interesting than Origins', and I salute that. It would have been a solidly far better game if it had actually had enough development time. So no, I don't agree with this at all.

#49
Meris

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Xilizhra wrote...innovative


On what scale do you say? On the franchise? Of course. On the genre? Certainly not. On the medium? Even less so.

OP:I believe Dragon Age II went on the wrong direction for a franchise originally meant as the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate.

Modifié par Meris, 03 mars 2012 - 03:32 .


#50
batlin

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Xilizhra wrote...

2's direction was far more ambitious, innovative and interesting than Origins', and I salute that. It would have been a solidly far better game if it had actually had enough development time. So no, I don't agree with this at all.


Tell me, in what ways did DA2 innovate?

I mean, I keep seeing people say that DA2 is innovative, but never once have I seen someone explain exactly what these innovations are.