1306 réponses à ce sujet

[jbrand2002uk]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Forget Bhelen, Petrice, etc; options are nice, but not required. In the narrative. There is no problem; some dialogue allows for more reason to doubt her veracity than others, but she lives.

But why?  Fropm Hawke's perspective, Hawke's own actions don't make any sense.

That's the problem.  If I'm roleplaying my character, I view the in-game events solely from his perspective.  Hawke doesn't know there's a story being told, so the demands of the narrative are unknown to him.

Why does Hawke never react to Petric?  What reasons does Hawke have never to do such a thing?

Exactly.   Hawke doesn't know there's "a story".  Hawke only knows what Hawke the character knows.  When Hawke isn't allowed to act on Hawke's knowledge because "it would hurt the story", you've created a large incongruity.

Actually Hawke can act he can choose to inform the Viscount of his suspicions and the Viscount says he will make enquiries, you have to look at it in context, Petrice is most certainly maniacal and Xenophobic and a religous extremist, However Wealthly or influencial Hawke may be even the Viscount could not take Accusations as fact especially against a sister in the chantry as fact In the same way that no person would walk up to the Pope and call him a child molester because some catholic priests have got too touchy feely with young children.

Even if you were to kill Petrice what would it solve someone would just take her place Petrice is nothing more than a symptom of the real cause which is the Chantry and its intolerance towards other faiths particualy towards any that bring the claims of the chantry into disrepute, very similar to how in RL a certain catholic scientist was ex comunicated when he discovered that contary to the church's beliefs that the Earth rotated around the Sun and not the other way around and that also contrary to catholic teachings at the time the earth was not flat. 

[Realmzmaster]

TheStrand221 wrote...

The infuriating thing about Petrice isn't even that you can't kill her, it's that you can't do anything. Try to convince the honest members of the chantry? Warn the Viscount (even if you have to wait until after the Deep Roads expedition)? You aren't given the option to even try and fail to do something about a woman who has not only tried to kill you but basically admitted to wanting to start a war on false pretenses and drown Kirkwall in an orgy of violence.

And people wonder why Hawke comes across as an impotent, feckless dolt.

Based on what evidence are you going to warn them? Hawke gets to warn the Viscount at a certain point and the accusation is dismissed. Not only that who are the honest members of the chantry? How does Hawke identify them from Petrice's people?

So Hawke kills Petrice and Varnell to what end? Now you are a wanted man/woman (to be hunted by the city guard and the templars) because you have zero evidence to support what you did.

[TheStrand221]

Realmzmaster wrote...

TheStrand221 wrote...

The infuriating thing about Petrice isn't even that you can't kill her, it's that you can't do anything. Try to convince the honest members of the chantry? Warn the Viscount (even if you have to wait until after the Deep Roads expedition)? You aren't given the option to even try and fail to do something about a woman who has not only tried to kill you but basically admitted to wanting to start a war on false pretenses and drown Kirkwall in an orgy of violence.

And people wonder why Hawke comes across as an impotent, feckless dolt.

Based on what evidence are you going to warn them? Hawke gets to warn the Viscount at a certain point and the accusation is dismissed. Not only that who are the honest members of the chantry? How does Hawke identify them from Petrice's people?

So Hawke kills Petrice and Varnell to what end? Now you are a wanted man/woman (to be hunted by the city guard and the templars) because you have zero evidence to support what you did.

I forgot about the Viscount.

Petrice just needs better plot armor than Hawke's passivity, that's the issue.  Others in this thread have already made substantial arguments as to why killing Petrice in Lowtown is not convincingly suicidal, especially given the reams of Templars you butcher.  There is no reason to believe Hawke and company would be hunted.

[Realmzmaster]

TheStrand221 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

TheStrand221 wrote...

The infuriating thing about Petrice isn't even that you can't kill her, it's that you can't do anything. Try to convince the honest members of the chantry? Warn the Viscount (even if you have to wait until after the Deep Roads expedition)? You aren't given the option to even try and fail to do something about a woman who has not only tried to kill you but basically admitted to wanting to start a war on false pretenses and drown Kirkwall in an orgy of violence.

And people wonder why Hawke comes across as an impotent, feckless dolt.

Based on what evidence are you going to warn them? Hawke gets to warn the Viscount at a certain point and the accusation is dismissed. Not only that who are the honest members of the chantry? How does Hawke identify them from Petrice's people?

So Hawke kills Petrice and Varnell to what end? Now you are a wanted man/woman (to be hunted by the city guard and the templars) because you have zero evidence to support what you did.

I forgot about the Viscount.

Petrice just needs better plot armor than Hawke's passivity, that's the issue.  Others in this thread have already made substantial arguments as to why killing Petrice in Lowtown is not convincingly suicidal, especially given the reams of Templars you butcher.  There is no reason to believe Hawke and company would be hunted.

You have butchered no templars up to this point. Only after Shepharding Wolves do you get that opportunity. So at this point Hawke would become a hunted man/woman especially considereing you have no proof for  your reason to kill Petrice and Varnell.  What evidence does Hawke have of anything Petrice and Varnell are doing?

[TheStrand221]

Read the thread man, people have already pointed out that killing Petrice and her underling would probably be neither difficult, nor connectable to Hawke in anyway. It doesn't matter if you haven't already killed Templars at that point, the fact is you can kill waves of them INSIDE THE CHANTRY and nobody connects it to you. Can't you see why people are a little incredulous that killing Petrice in her secret Lowtown hovel that almost nobody knows about when you're a complete unknown inside Kirkwall would somehow trigger a massive manhunt for you?

Proof is irrelevant if your intent is just to kill her yourself.

Modifié par TheStrand221, 16 mars 2012 - 10:57 .

[TEWR]

Realmzmaster wrote...

You have butchered no templars up to this point.

I'm pretty sure that Shepherding Wolves doesn't affect any of the Templar oriented quests of Act 1.

I mean, hell you kill Templars in Tranquility. In the Chantry. Where Karl was at for when Anders showed up. No one links that to Hawke.

Probably because they link it more to Anders since he was the target of the quest, but still... you do kill Templars prior to Shepherding Wolves.

Only after Shepharding Wolves do you get that opportunity. So at this point Hawke would become a hunted man/woman especially considereing you have no proof for your reason to kill Petrice and Varnell. What evidence does Hawke have of anything Petrice and Varnell are doing?

Well, she did say she was operating outside of Chantry authority. And she was adamant that Varnell dispose of any evidence in the hovel implicating her. So that means that the evidence was there.

[TheStrand221]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Well, she did say she was operating outside of Chantry authority. And she was adamant that Varnell dispose of any evidence in the hovel implicating her. So that means that the evidence was there.

Good point, I forgot about that.

[maxernst]

Realmzmaster wrote...

TheStrand221 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

TheStrand221 wrote...

I forgot about the Viscount.

You have butchered no templars up to this point. Only after Shepharding Wolves do you get that opportunity. So at this point Hawke would become a hunted man/woman especially considereing you have no proof for  your reason to kill Petrice and Varnell.  What evidence does Hawke have of anything Petrice and Varnell are doing?

Actually, I butchered plenty of Templars before encountering Petrice--I completed Act of Mercy before Shepherding wolves (granted with Thrask's help, but still...I have no evidence that it was self-defense other than his say-so).  And as far as proof, wouldn't the statement of the Captain of the Guard count for something?  I found it rather jarring that a Chantry sister would be so sure that her word would carry so much more in weight than Aveline's.  I left Sheparding Wolves till nearly the end of Act 1 because  I had my 100 gold, I couldn't see any motivation for my Hawke to investigate a chantry sister flashing money in Lowtown.

But my biggest problem with the Petrice plotline is that my Hawke inexplicably decides to walk into an obvious trap rather than talk to Elthina.  What posesses him to follow the instructions of someone who doesn't even attempt to hide her hostility?  And does it really make sense to you that a nobleman with the ear of the Viscount can't get an appointment or even send a letter to Elthina without Petrice's consent.  How did she get to be Elthina's keeper?

Edited to add: And yes, I killed the Templars in the Chantry long before Shepherding Wolves, too.

Modifié par maxernst, 16 mars 2012 - 11:11 .

[maxernst]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But why?  Fropm Hawke's perspective, Hawke's own actions don't make any sense.

That's the problem.  If I'm roleplaying my character, I view the in-game events solely from his perspective.  Hawke doesn't know there's a story being told, so the demands of the narrative are unknown to him.

Why does Hawke never react to Petric?  What reasons does Hawke have never to do such a thing?

Exactly.   Hawke doesn't know there's "a story".  Hawke only knows what Hawke the character knows.  When Hawke isn't allowed to act on Hawke's knowledge because "it would hurt the story", you've created a large incongruity.

Actually Hawke can act he can choose to inform the Viscount of his suspicions and the Viscount says he will make enquiries, you have to look at it in context, Petrice is most certainly maniacal and Xenophobic and a religous extremist, However Wealthly or influencial Hawke may be even the Viscount could not take Accusations as fact especially against a sister in the chantry as fact In the same way that no person would walk up to the Pope and call him a child molester because some catholic priests have got too touchy feely with young children.

Even if you were to kill Petrice what would it solve someone would just take her place Petrice is nothing more than a symptom of the real cause which is the Chantry and its intolerance towards other faiths particualy towards any that bring the claims of the chantry into disrepute, very similar to how in RL a certain catholic scientist was ex comunicated when he discovered that contary to the church's beliefs that the Earth rotated around the Sun and not the other way around and that also contrary to catholic teachings at the time the earth was not flat. 

Petrice is hardly comparable to the pope.  She's not the Divine.  She's not even the supreme religious authority in Kirkwall.  Do you really think that a police chief in RL couldn't attempt to arrest a parish priest--or even a bishop--whom she has personally witnessed trying to cause major conflict in the city?

It might not solve the problem, but this is what frustrates me about those defending DA2's story:  it's always assumed that those of us dissatisfied with the game expect to be able to solve all problems  What I would like is to be able to roleplay a Hawke who really tries to solve them , even if he must ultimately fail.

Modifié par maxernst, 16 mars 2012 - 11:31 .

[schalafi]

I got a new quest this time I played the game, it was the one where I was invited to meet someone at midnight in Hightown, and they were all Templars. I had to kill them all, or be killed. I still don't understand the significance of that meeting, other than they must have hated mages, and my pc was a mage, as well as Anders and Merrill being in my party..

[Realmzmaster]

TheStrand221 wrote...

Read the thread man, people have already pointed out that killing Petrice and her underling would probably be neither difficult, nor connectable to Hawke in anyway. It doesn't matter if you haven't already killed Templars at that point, the fact is you can kill waves of them INSIDE THE CHANTRY and nobody connects it to you. Can't you see why people are a little incredulous that killing Petrice in her secret Lowtown hovel that almost nobody knows about when you're a complete unknown inside Kirkwall would somehow trigger a massive manhunt for you?

Proof is irrelevant if your intent is just to kill her yourself.

Yes, I am sure that dead templars and sisters are found in a Lowtown hovel everyday.   I am sure that an investigation would happen. Now whether someone saw Hawke in company with Petrice would be another matter.
But I doubt anything goes down in LowTown without someone knowing it. I have read the thread from beginning to end. 
Yes, the evidence was there (the operative word being was) but is now all gone by the time Hawke gets back to Petrice.

If all Hawke was to do is kill Petrice then no evidence or proof of her wrong doing is necessary. If you want protection from possible imprisonment  then evidence/proof is necessary.

Killing waves of templars inside the Chantry during the quest for the map is incedulous. Even more so when no mention of it is made later. It is like it never happened. The same with the Arl of Denerim estate in DAO except Loghain does mention it sometime later at the Landsmeet, but no one cares.

There are enough plot holes in both DAO and DA2 to steer battleships through.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 16 mars 2012 - 11:47 .

[TheStrand221]

maxernst wrote...
It might not solve the problem, but this is what frustrates me about those defending DA2's story:  it's always assumed that those of us dissatisfied with the game expect to be able to solve all problems  What I would like is to be able to roleplay a Hawke who really tries to solve them , even if he must ultimately fail.

Exactly.  Being able to get different outcomes, as with Ser Cauthrien, would just be gravy at this point.

[TheStrand221]

Realmzmaster wrote...
There are enough plot holes in both DAO and DA2 to steer battleships through.

On this, we agree.

[TEWR]

schalafi wrote...

I got a new quest this time I played the game, it was the one where I was invited to meet someone at midnight in Hightown, and they were all Templars. I had to kill them all, or be killed. I still don't understand the significance of that meeting, other than they must have hated mages, and my pc was a mage, as well as Anders and Merrill being in my party..

The woman you killed wanted to exact vengeance upon you for killing Ser Kerras.

[TEWR]

TheStrand221 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
There are enough plot holes in both DAO and DA2 to steer battleships through.

On this, we agree.

I agree with this as well.

[Realmzmaster]

maxernst wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

TheStrand221 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

TheStrand221 wrote...

I forgot about the Viscount.

You have butchered no templars up to this point. Only after Shepharding Wolves do you get that opportunity. So at this point Hawke would become a hunted man/woman especially considereing you have no proof for  your reason to kill Petrice and Varnell.  What evidence does Hawke have of anything Petrice and Varnell are doing?

Actually, I butchered plenty of Templars before encountering Petrice--I completed Act of Mercy before Shepherding wolves (granted with Thrask's help, but still...I have no evidence that it was self-defense other than his say-so).  And as far as proof, wouldn't the statement of the Captain of the Guard count for something?  I found it rather jarring that a Chantry sister would be so sure that her word would carry so much more in weight than Aveline's.  I left Sheparding Wolves till nearly the end of Act 1 because  I had my 100 gold, I couldn't see any motivation for my Hawke to investigate a chantry sister flashing money in Lowtown.

But my biggest problem with the Petrice plotline is that my Hawke inexplicably decides to walk into an obvious trap rather than talk to Elthina.  What posesses him to follow the instructions of someone who doesn't even attempt to hide her hostility?  And does it really make sense to you that a nobleman with the ear of the Viscount can't get an appointment or even send a letter to Elthina without Petrice's consent.  How did she get to be Elthina's keeper?

Edited to add: And yes, I killed the Templars in the Chantry long before Shepherding Wolves, too.

Actually I am afraid that Petrice's word would carry more weight than Aveline's even if she was Captain of the Guard. A statement from the Captain of the Guard does not mean squat without evidence. A RL chief of police will tell you an accusation without proof is just that an accusation
Petrice has the trust of the people due to her position and a following that she cultivates everyday at the Chantry. Aveline on the other hand does not have that influence. 

[dragonflight288]

And that is something Petrice mentions. She has influence over common people because of her status in the Chantry. Hawke doesn't get any real influence until Act 3. Even after Varnell kills the Qunari and we tell the viscount, he specifically asks if Petrice was involved and if we had proof (like did she fight with the people or help kill the Qunari.)

Hawke cannot honestly say yes. He can say he's suspicious, but without any proof, he can do nothing legally.

[TheStrand221]

Reasonable people are still unconvinced Hawke would be caught for killing her, or at the very least consider it rational for Hawke to think he could get away with it even if he'd eventually be caught. If it doesn't bother you or effect you suspension of disbelief, that's fine. It does for some people, and their feelings about it aren't unreasonable.

The "proof" issue can be argued, but doesn't affect the possibility of killing her if you don't think Hawke will be caught. Just because the action is stupid in your opinion doesn't make it an invalid course of action for certain Hawke's as people choose to play him/her.

[maxernst]

Realmzmaster wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Actually, I butchered plenty of Templars before encountering Petrice--I completed Act of Mercy before Shepherding wolves (granted with Thrask's help, but still...I have no evidence that it was self-defense other than his say-so).  And as far as proof, wouldn't the statement of the Captain of the Guard count for something?  I found it rather jarring that a Chantry sister would be so sure that her word would carry so much more in weight than Aveline's.  I left Sheparding Wolves till nearly the end of Act 1 because  I had my 100 gold, I couldn't see any motivation for my Hawke to investigate a chantry sister flashing money in Lowtown.

But my biggest problem with the Petrice plotline is that my Hawke inexplicably decides to walk into an obvious trap rather than talk to Elthina.  What posesses him to follow the instructions of someone who doesn't even attempt to hide her hostility?  And does it really make sense to you that a nobleman with the ear of the Viscount can't get an appointment or even send a letter to Elthina without Petrice's consent.  How did she get to be Elthina's keeper?

Edited to add: And yes, I killed the Templars in the Chantry long before Shepherding Wolves, too.

Actually I am afraid that Petrice's word would carry more weight than Aveline's even if she was Captain of the Guard. A statement from the Captain of the Guard does not mean squat without evidence. A RL chief of police will tell you an accusation without proof is just that an accusation
Petrice has the trust of the people due to her position and a following that she cultivates everyday at the Chantry. Aveline on the other hand does not have that influence. 

Three years later, perhaps (though by that time Hawke has plenty of influence of his own).  But in Act One, there's no evidence she has any followers at all, other than Varnell.  She's just one of many chantry sisters. The notion that she has the trust of large numbers of people is speculative, whereas I know that Aveline has the trust of the Guards and the Viscount.  For that matter, the Viscount trusts me, too, since I retrieved his son, and the Viscount as a character witness ought to count for something,.   I also have the good will of Thrask, Cullen and Emeric, so I may have as many Templar Knight-Commanders on my side as she does.  Witnesses are usually considered to have some weight as evidence in a court of law and I have several whereas she has only one, and the need
to come up with a story to explain what the hell she's doing in a lowtown hovel with a bag of gold and a captive Qunari to begin with. 

And if I do wish to kill her, who is it that's going to investigate?  Aveline's guards?  Her statement might count for something there.  Emeric who seems to do that sort of thing for the Templars?  I've probably made a pretty positive impression there,too.  Somebody under the Viscount's direction?  Aveline and I both have an in there.  A Seeker from the Chantry is the only outside investigator that I don't have any influence with.  And the evidence thing goes both ways.  What evidence could anybody find to connect me with the crime?  At most, there could be eyewitnesses who saw me following her, but I doubt lowtown residents are going to be seen as more reliable witnesses than Aveline, and they may not be all that inclined to cooperate with authorities anyway, especially if Varric's spreading around a little coin.

Her confidence that I'm just a lowtown thug who can't threaten her might
make sense if you do the quest early in Act one, but if you do it close
to the end, Hawke's position is quite a bit stronger.

Modifié par maxernst, 17 mars 2012 - 12:35 .

[Realmzmaster]

TheStrand221 wrote...

Reasonable people are still unconvinced Hawke would be caught for killing her, or at the very least consider it rational for Hawke to think he could get away with it even if he'd eventually be caught. If it doesn't bother you or effect you suspension of disbelief, that's fine. It does for some people, and their feelings about it aren't unreasonable.

The "proof" issue can be argued, but doesn't affect the possibility of killing her if you don't think Hawke will be caught. Just because the action is stupid in your opinion doesn't make it an invalid course of action for certain Hawke's as people choose to play him/her.

I have no problem with it if gamers feel that Hawke will not get caught. If Bioware had allowed Hawke to kill Petrice I would also like to see a chance that Hawke could get caught. Hawke would then have to produce evidence or proof to Petrice's wrongdoing. to stay out of prison. If Hawke could not all of Hawke's holdings (all the gold collected would be seized) and Hawke sent to prison. A breakout from prison would occur and Hawke would have to accept the offer from Dougal (upped to 50 gold) to get to the Deep Roads. The treasure from the Deep Roads would then be used to buy Hawke out of trouble by greasing the necessary palms

[Realmzmaster]

@maxernst,

You raised the interesting point of when the quests are done. The later you do the quest the more influence Hawke will have , but the earlier it is done the less influence Hawke or any of the party will have including Aveline. Also if Aveline is in the party would she allow you to kill Petrice and Varnell or demand you had them over to the authorities. The party would then have to search the hovel for proof.

Since this quest happens in Act 1 Hawke does not have to worry about a reaction from Sebastian who I suspect would also object. Varric may object because it bad business to go about killing Chantry folks. But we will never know because of the way it is written.

[maxernst]

Realmzmaster wrote...

@maxernst,

You raised the interesting point of when the quests are done. The later you do the quest the more influence Hawke will have , but the earlier it is done the less influence Hawke or any of the party will have including Aveline. Also if Aveline is in the party would she allow you to kill Petrice and Varnell or demand you had them over to the authorities. The party would then have to search the hovel for proof.

Since this quest happens in Act 1 Hawke does not have to worry about a reaction from Sebastian who I suspect would also object. Varric may object because it bad business to go about killing Chantry folks. But we will never know because of the way it is written.

How Aveline would react if you want to kill Petrice is an interesting question.  She certainly shows a willingness to take the law into her own hands at times, though.  Of course, my suspicion (not because it makes sense but because it's how Bioware tends to do things) is that if you did try to capture them and take them to the authorities, they'd probably attack despite the suicidal odds.  And I'm not so sure that the bodies would be found if we did.  We could stuff them down in the tunnel, try to clean up the blood.  They're not supposed to be here, after all, so when they disappear, the authorities wouldn't necessarily know where to look.

I realize that Bioware can't plan for every possible action, but as somebody suggested earlier better plot armor--like more Templars or lots of ordinary people milling around outside the hovel, would have made the scenario work a lot better.  I felt the same way about the Cullen taking Bethany away at the beginning of Act 2-wait, they sent just ONE templar?  I don't expect to "get away with it", but it's not hard to imagine Hawke's who would choose to flee Kirkwall, rather than let Bethany be taken. 

[Joy Divison]

Of the hundreds of people Hawke has killed in Kirkwall - many of them in the open streets - why is he all of a sudden worried about getting caught or illegality w/ whacking Petrice out of sight in a Lowtown hovel?

[maxernst]

Joy Divison wrote...

Of the hundreds of people Hawke has killed in Kirkwall - many of them in the open streets - why is he all of a sudden worried about getting caught or illegality w/ whacking Petrice out of sight in a Lowtown hovel?

Well, yeah, the lack of consequence for Hawke's mass murdering activities is problematic.  I really don't know why Bioware decided to set the entire game in a city when they appear to have wanted to remove almost all non-combat gameplay.  Cities shouldn't double as dungeons.  Where the hell are the guard patrols Aveline keeps talking about?

I remember thinking that when Meredith called me out on not killing the mage from the noble family.  How does she know he's not one of the dozens of exploded bodies I've left lying all over Kirkwall?

Modifié par maxernst, 17 mars 2012 - 01:47 .

[Realmzmaster]

maxernst wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Of the hundreds of people Hawke has killed in Kirkwall - many of them in the open streets - why is he all of a sudden worried about getting caught or illegality w/ whacking Petrice out of sight in a Lowtown hovel?

Well, yeah, the lack of consequence for Hawke's mass murdering activities is problematic.  I really don't know why Bioware decided to set the entire game in a city when they appear to have wanted to remove almost all non-combat gameplay.  Cities shouldn't double as dungeons.  Where the hell are the guard patrols Aveline keeps talking about?

I remember thinking that when Meredith called me out on not killing the mage from the noble family.  How does she know he's not one of the dozens of exploded bodies I've left lying all over Kirkwall?

Hawke gets away with it because he/she is not killing innocents. Hawke kills gang members, Carta members, Qunari, Tal-Vashoth, slavers, assassins, dragons, undead, darkspawn, monsters, dangerous mages  and other lowlifes that are better removed from the streets and vicinty for the protection of the nobles and good folk of Kirkwall.

Hawke and company are removing the elements that decent folk do not want on the streets and they are willing to turn a blind eye to it when it is done. Maybe even reward Hawke for doing it.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 17 mars 2012 - 02:02 .