1306 réponses à ce sujet

[maxernst]

Realmzmaster wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Of the hundreds of people Hawke has killed in Kirkwall - many of them in the open streets - why is he all of a sudden worried about getting caught or illegality w/ whacking Petrice out of sight in a Lowtown hovel?

Well, yeah, the lack of consequence for Hawke's mass murdering activities is problematic.  I really don't know why Bioware decided to set the entire game in a city when they appear to have wanted to remove almost all non-combat gameplay.  Cities shouldn't double as dungeons.  Where the hell are the guard patrols Aveline keeps talking about?

I remember thinking that when Meredith called me out on not killing the mage from the noble family.  How does she know he's not one of the dozens of exploded bodies I've left lying all over Kirkwall?

Hawke gets away with it because he/she is not killing innocents. Hawke kills gang members, Carta members, Qunari, Tal-Vashoth, slavers, assassins, dragons, undead, darkspawn, monsters, dangerous mages  and other lowlifes that are better removed from the streets and vicinty for the protection of the nobles and good folk of Kirkwall.

Hawke and company are removing the elements that decent folk do not want on the streets and they are willing to turn a blind eye to it when it is done. Maybe even reward Hawke for doing it.

And we prove that all these people are low-lifes, how, exactly?  Wouldn't somebody at least wonder why there are so many bodies lying all over the city?  We never face any quesitoning and Aveline never comments on our death toll.  And if everybody knows Hawke is doing this and turns a blind eye to it, why do all these people keep trying to kill him?  Shouldn't they be a wee bit afraid rather than psychotically attacking on sight?

They're not all low lifes, either.  Depending on your choices in Act of Mercy, you may end up butchering a large number of Templars.  It seems a bit odd that there's no investigation of a large number of dead Templars.

[Realmzmaster]

maxernst wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Of the hundreds of people Hawke has killed in Kirkwall - many of them in the open streets - why is he all of a sudden worried about getting caught or illegality w/ whacking Petrice out of sight in a Lowtown hovel?

Well, yeah, the lack of consequence for Hawke's mass murdering activities is problematic.  I really don't know why Bioware decided to set the entire game in a city when they appear to have wanted to remove almost all non-combat gameplay.  Cities shouldn't double as dungeons.  Where the hell are the guard patrols Aveline keeps talking about?

I remember thinking that when Meredith called me out on not killing the mage from the noble family.  How does she know he's not one of the dozens of exploded bodies I've left lying all over Kirkwall?

Hawke gets away with it because he/she is not killing innocents. Hawke kills gang members, Carta members, Qunari, Tal-Vashoth, slavers, assassins, dragons, undead, darkspawn, monsters, dangerous mages  and other lowlifes that are better removed from the streets and vicinty for the protection of the nobles and good folk of Kirkwall.

Hawke and company are removing the elements that decent folk do not want on the streets and they are willing to turn a blind eye to it when it is done. Maybe even reward Hawke for doing it.

And we prove that all these people are low-lifes, how, exactly?  Wouldn't somebody at least wonder why there are so many bodies lying all over the city?  We never face any quesitoning and Aveline never comments on our death toll.  And if everybody knows Hawke is doing this and turns a blind eye to it, why do all these people keep trying to kill him?  Shouldn't they be a wee bit afraid rather than psychotically attacking on sight?

They're not all low lifes, either.  Depending on your choices in Act of Mercy, you may end up butchering a large number of Templars.  It seems a bit odd that there's no investigation of a large number of dead Templars.

You are talking about a city where you can find corpses and skeletons lying all over the place.  Walk around in Darktown and Lowtown and stumble across skeletons. 

How do we know they are lowlifes? All Hawke has to do is walk up and say Hello. Hawke gets attacked. Hawke walks the street at night for a stroll and gets attacked. As you said depending on your choices in Act of Mercy or who you have with you templars die. But options are presented that avoid bloodshed. The player chooses to kill the templars or not.
The templar killing in the Chantry helping Anders could have been written better. Hawke should have had the option of surrending Anders to the templars and then ransacking his clinic to find the maps or surrendering Anders and then breaking him out with or without bloodshed. 

[Elhanan]

Plus Hawke is informed there are gangs hassling the common folk; reason he may collect bounties from a sponsor.

[maxernst]

maxernst wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...


And we prove that all these people are low-lifes, how, exactly?  Wouldn't somebody at least wonder why there are so many bodies lying all over the city?  We never face any quesitoning and Aveline never comments on our death toll.  And if everybody knows Hawke is doing this and turns a blind eye to it, why do all these people keep trying to kill him?  Shouldn't they be a wee bit afraid rather than psychotically attacking on sight?

They're not all low lifes, either.  Depending on your choices in Act of Mercy, you may end up butchering a large number of Templars.  It seems a bit odd that there's no investigation of a large number of dead Templars.

You are talking about a city where you can find corpses and skeletons lying all over the place.  Walk around in Darktown and Lowtown and stumble across skeletons. 

How do we know they are lowlifes? All Hawke has to do is walk up and say Hello. Hawke gets attacked. Hawke walks the street at night for a stroll and gets attacked. As you said depending on your choices in Act of Mercy or who you have with you templars die. But options are presented that avoid bloodshed. The player chooses to kill the templars or not.
The templar killing in the Chantry helping Anders could have been written better. Hawke should have had the option of surrending Anders to the templars and then ransacking his clinic to find the maps or surrendering Anders and then breaking him out with or without bloodshed. 

I didn't ask how we know they're lowlifes, I asked how we prove it, after they're dead.  Are there witnesses who corroborate that it was self-defense?  And, frankly, the fact that you stumble over dead bodies all over the place just furthers my point that the level of violence in Kirkwall is unbelievable.  This might be plausible toward the end when we're supposed to believe that things are breaking down, but it's the same through the entire game, only the enemies change.  Refugees wouldn't be trying to get into Kirkwall, people would be fleeing the place in real life.

Besides, doesn't all this mayhem make it just a little improbable that one chantry sister and one templar killed inside a house in Lowtown will spark an investigation, when the deaths of a dozen templars in Hightown don't.  Especially since if there's a mage in your party, you can't even cry self-defense on that--they have a legal right to attack an apostate.

Modifié par maxernst, 17 mars 2012 - 02:59 .

[Realmzmaster]

maxernst wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...


And we prove that all these people are low-lifes, how, exactly?  Wouldn't somebody at least wonder why there are so many bodies lying all over the city?  We never face any quesitoning and Aveline never comments on our death toll.  And if everybody knows Hawke is doing this and turns a blind eye to it, why do all these people keep trying to kill him?  Shouldn't they be a wee bit afraid rather than psychotically attacking on sight?

They're not all low lifes, either.  Depending on your choices in Act of Mercy, you may end up butchering a large number of Templars.  It seems a bit odd that there's no investigation of a large number of dead Templars.

You are talking about a city where you can find corpses and skeletons lying all over the place.  Walk around in Darktown and Lowtown and stumble across skeletons. 

How do we know they are lowlifes? All Hawke has to do is walk up and say Hello. Hawke gets attacked. Hawke walks the street at night for a stroll and gets attacked. As you said depending on your choices in Act of Mercy or who you have with you templars die. But options are presented that avoid bloodshed. The player chooses to kill the templars or not.
The templar killing in the Chantry helping Anders could have been written better. Hawke should have had the option of surrending Anders to the templars and then ransacking his clinic to find the maps or surrendering Anders and then breaking him out with or without bloodshed. 

I didn't ask how we know they're lowlifes, I asked how we prove it, after they're dead.  Are there witnesses who corroborate that it was self-defense?  And, frankly, the fact that you stumble over dead bodies all over the place just furthers my point that the level of violence in Kirkwall is unbelievable.  This might be plausible toward the end when we're supposed to believe that things are breaking down, but it's the same through the entire game, only the enemies change.  Refugees wouldn't be trying to get into Kirkwall, people would be fleeing the place in real life.

Besides, doesn't all this mayhem make it just a little improbable that one chantry sister and one templar killed inside a house in Lowtown will spark an investigation, when the deaths of a dozen templars in Hightown don't.  Especially since if there's a mage in your party, you can't even cry self-defense on that--they have a legal right to attack an apostate.

No because you remember Emeric started investigating because one of the older female mages went missing. So just imagine if a sister and templar went missing or found murdered. Somebody will want to know why. It only takes one person to wonder and start digging.

[LinksOcarina]

maxernst wrote...

I didn't ask how we know they're lowlifes, I asked how we prove it, after they're dead.  Are there witnesses who corroborate that it was self-defense?  And, frankly, the fact that you stumble over dead bodies all over the place just furthers my point that the level of violence in Kirkwall is unbelievable.  This might be plausible toward the end when we're supposed to believe that things are breaking down, but it's the same through the entire game, only the enemies change.  Refugees wouldn't be trying to get into Kirkwall, people would be fleeing the place in real life.

Besides, doesn't all this mayhem make it just a little improbable that one chantry sister and one templar killed inside a house in Lowtown will spark an investigation, when the deaths of a dozen templars in Hightown don't.  Especially since if there's a mage in your party, you can't even cry self-defense on that--they have a legal right to attack an apostate.

Well for one, they attack you at night. 

I thought was pretty clear proof of them being the bad guys.

As for the templars, its more of a "I don't see them using Magic in front of me" thing. The only difference is that they carry staves, but thats more of a gameplay mechanic over a story thing. Its not good game design in that regard, but its a typical gameplay mechanic now a days to make things easy.

[maxernst]

Realmzmaster wrote...

maxernst wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Besides, doesn't all this mayhem make it just a little improbable that one chantry sister and one templar killed inside a house in Lowtown will spark an investigation, when the deaths of a dozen templars in Hightown don't.  Especially since if there's a mage in your party, you can't even cry self-defense on that--they have a legal right to attack an apostate.

No because you remember Emeric started investigating because one of the older female mages went missing. So just imagine if a sister and templar went missing or found murdered. Somebody will want to know why. It only takes one person to wonder and start digging.

A mage is an entirely different matter.  It's the Templars job to track down mages. They're not supposed to "vanish".  Again, lots of tTemplars are found murdered in the chantry, then possibly a bunch more found murdered in the street and nobody ever asks any questions.  Lots of people get murdered in Kirkwall and she was in a dangerous neighborhood for unknown reasons.  If she gets found, they'll probably think somebody just wanted to steal her stuff.

[maxernst]

LinksOcarina wrote...

maxernst wrote...

I didn't ask how we know they're lowlifes, I asked how we prove it, after they're dead.  Are there witnesses who corroborate that it was self-defense?  And, frankly, the fact that you stumble over dead bodies all over the place just furthers my point that the level of violence in Kirkwall is unbelievable.  This might be plausible toward the end when we're supposed to believe that things are breaking down, but it's the same through the entire game, only the enemies change.  Refugees wouldn't be trying to get into Kirkwall, people would be fleeing the place in real life.

Besides, doesn't all this mayhem make it just a little improbable that one chantry sister and one templar killed inside a house in Lowtown will spark an investigation, when the deaths of a dozen templars in Hightown don't.  Especially since if there's a mage in your party, you can't even cry self-defense on that--they have a legal right to attack an apostate.

Well for one, they attack you at night. 

Who says?  Maybe you attacked them.  What were you doing wandering around at night? Honestly, if I were a guard who was frequently cleaning up a whole lot of corpses, and the same guy repeatedly cries "self-defense" every time, I'd be a wee bit suspicious.

[TEWR]

maxernst wrote...

Who says? Maybe you attacked them. What were you doing wandering around at night? Honestly, if I were a guard who was frequently cleaning up a whole lot of corpses, and the same guy repeatedly cries "self-defense" every time, I'd be a wee bit suspicious.

I wouldn't use the crime gangs of Kirkwall as proof of Hawke's plot armor. Those guys were known to be trouble in the city.

My issue is how it isn't really tied to Aveline and the City Guard. It would've been far better had it been tied to the City Guards as a quest chain along with the Friends of Red Jenny.

But I don't want to create that TL;DR again. Because... well... you know, it's a TL;DR.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 mars 2012 - 04:04 .

[Elhanan]

Well at least one of the gangs was wearing false guard uniforms; that would concern Aveline.

[TEWR]

True, but the quests aren't actually linked to the City guard in a meaningful way -- and a realistic one at that if we want to believe Kirkwall's Guards are... well... Guardsmen.

The only time I've seen the Guardsmen doing their job was in the "prologue", in Act 2 for Fell Ordon and in Act 3 when Aveline was accused of being soft on her charges. But other then that, nothing.

[TheStrand221]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The only time I've seen the Guardsmen doing their job was in the "prologue", in Act 2 for Fell Ordon and in Act 3 when Aveline was accused of being soft on her charges. But other then that, nothing.

Damn guards will watch you fight waves of bandits in High Town without lifting a finger, I don't think they ever do their job.

Little help, bro?

Modifié par TheStrand221, 17 mars 2012 - 04:11 .

[Realmzmaster]

TheStrand221 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The only time I've seen the Guardsmen doing their job was in the "prologue", in Act 2 for Fell Ordon and in Act 3 when Aveline was accused of being soft on her charges. But other then that, nothing.

Damn guards will watch you fight waves of bandits in High Town without lifting a finger, I don't think they ever do their job.

Little help, bro?

The only time a Guardsmen jumps in is if Donnic is in the Hanged Man during the Long Road quest since he is waiting for Hawke. Isabela will also jump in during fights in the Hanged man if present.

[Das Tentakel]

TheStrand221 wrote...

By the way, as this is somewhat germane to the topic of Dragon Age's "direction", were there ever any threads or information put out about the development process for the series after the 2004 E3 preview?

pc.ign.com/articles/514/514514p1.html

I'm just curious about the development of the series and lore in general, and a lot seemed to have change from that early point.  Even with DA2 I know there was supposedly a lot of discussion about Hawke being a lycanthrope that was ultimately abandoned.

Interesting look back! Dragon Age was always very vaguely on my radar until 2008, when it neared completion and the PR engine started to hum.
I am afraid I can't help here, though I did read in a long thread on a Dutch forum dedicated to DA (going back to 2006) that precious little information came out except for the occasional reassurance that it was coming.
I do remember that Brent Knowles, in his blog, mentions that there were considerable problems during development, in the sense that people were constantly coming and going, developing a new engine etc.
But as an example, the Dutch thread had excerpts from a German article, which mentioned that the devs were envisaging (and this was 2006 I think) a more interactive environment, with the ability push over tables, use them as cover etc. Almost certainly a LOT was scrapped in terms of gameplay.

That the original setting idea did not envisage Elves and Dwarves, just functionally equivalent races, was an interesting bit of information. It reminds me strongly of Summoner by Volition, which was a decidedly unTolkienian setting under the initial generic surface. No Elves or Dwarves, but the Khosani race was similar - short and living underground, but looking and 'feeling' clearly different from standard Dwarves.

It is a good guess this got ditched for reasons of recognisability (marketing...) but I fear we're not going to find out until somebody like Brent Knowles spills the beans in, say, 10 years' time.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 17 mars 2012 - 10:48 .

[Joy Divison]

Wow.

Now people are arguing that vigilantism is perfectly acceptable in a prominent city with an established government and a law enforcement that has some standards as far as who it takes (we know it rejected Carver).

And they're all lowlifes and slavers? I don't exactly have the highest opinion of the Templars, but I'd imagine the ruling establishment might have a different opinion when it comes to them. I can;t say I'm an expert in Thedas jurisprudence, but I suspect gang members still have basic rights. If they don't, well, Petrice is a lowlife so Hawke shouldn't worry about whacking her...

[Pasquale1234]

Joy Divison wrote...

Wow.

Now people are arguing that vigilantism is perfectly acceptable in a prominent city with an established government and a law enforcement that has some standards as far as who it takes (we know it rejected Carver).

And they're all lowlifes and slavers? I don't exactly have the highest opinion of the Templars, but I'd imagine the ruling establishment might have a different opinion when it comes to them. I can;t say I'm an expert in Thedas jurisprudence, but I suspect gang members still have basic rights. If they don't, well, Petrice is a lowlife so Hawke shouldn't worry about whacking her...

Good point.

OTOH, it's not like Hawke & Co. was given a choice as to whether to slaughter them or let them be.  Whenever Hawke encounters them, it is insta-battle - kill 'em all or your journey ends.

Which is kinda related to the topic under discussion over the last few pages - lack of player agency in deciding who to kill...

[DarkAmaranth1966]

The impression I get of Kirkwall is that you basically only have rights if you can afford them. You have to pay to get in to the city, elves don't get justice (No one helps Lia or the elves that went to the Qunari, Gamelen tells Leandra she would need coin and status to even see the viscount.) So, in Kirkwall, no money and/or no status = no rights.

In such a situation, yes I would say being a vigilante is perfectly fine - only law you have if you lack the coin and/or status to actually make the city laws apply to you if you are wronged.

[Elhanan]

Joy Divison wrote...

Wow.

Now people are arguing that vigilantism is perfectly acceptable in a prominent city with an established government and a law enforcement that has some standards as far as who it takes (we know it rejected Carver).

And they're all lowlifes and slavers? I don't exactly have the highest opinion of the Templars, but I'd imagine the ruling establishment might have a different opinion when it comes to them. I can;t say I'm an expert in Thedas jurisprudence, but I suspect gang members still have basic rights. If they don't, well, Petrice is a lowlife so Hawke shouldn't worry about whacking her...

What vigilantism? The authorities appear to know they are overwhelmed, and continue to ask Hawke for help. Plus I have the Captain of the Guard as a witness; they slipped in their own blood. One should not run with swords or scissors....

[Das Tentakel]

Joy Divison wrote...

Wow.

Now people are arguing that vigilantism is perfectly acceptable in a prominent city with an established government and a law enforcement that has some standards as far as who it takes (we know it rejected Carver).

And they're all lowlifes and slavers? I don't exactly have the highest opinion of the Templars, but I'd imagine the ruling establishment might have a different opinion when it comes to them. I can;t say I'm an expert in Thedas jurisprudence, but I suspect gang members still have basic rights. If they don't, well, Petrice is a lowlife so Hawke shouldn't worry about whacking her...

That is assuming that the city actually has an effective established government.

Kirkwall doesn't so much resemble a city-state taken from history or fantasy, but rather looks suspiciously like the setup of a movie 'wild west town', or a Depression-era American metropolis: The so-called authorities (Mayor/Viscount, Sheriff/Police/The Guard) are basically unable to control the criminal elements, and there's a constant risk of the situation spiralling out of control and outside powers (Federal Government/FBI/Army/Templars/Qunari) stepping in, upsetting the whole fragile applecart.

In such a situation, influence, connections and money are more important than such minutiae as 'basic rights', which may not even exist as a concept in Kirkwall. And above all, you have to get caught.
Time and again the narrative underscores how little control the so-called authorities actually have. 

One recurring plot element was Avelline's sincere attempt to reform the Guard as an instrument of law and order, with some help from her friend Hawke - but that in a way underlined the precariousness of the existing situation.

Welcome to Kirkwall, a city where the ruler and his Guard can not protect you from the Qunari, the Templars, the various criminal elements or Ferelden refugees with cliché fantasy surnames;)

[TEWR]

TheStrand221 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The only time I've seen the Guardsmen doing their job was in the "prologue", in Act 2 for Fell Ordon and in Act 3 when Aveline was accused of being soft on her charges. But other then that, nothing.

Damn guards will watch you fight waves of bandits in High Town without lifting a finger, I don't think they ever do their job.

Little help, bro?

DAO was better in this regard. You had Sergeant Kylon who actually hired the Warden to help clean up the city -- from directly talking to him and the Chanter's Board quest --, the Mages in Wynne's area who help you against Shah Wyrd, and you had the Templar at Lake Calenhad that would aid the Warden in any fight he/she got in.

With his fists.

I want that Templar as a party member for DA3.

That said, DAO wasn't perfect either. You can fight the Harrowmont/Bhelen fanatics in Orzammar but the Orzammar Guard won't assist you. But still, DAO was better.

[Das Tentakel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

...you had the Templar at Lake Calenhad that would aid the Warden in any fight he/she got in.

With his fists.

I want that Templar as a party member for DA3.

Be careful what you wish for. He´s probably going to get infected with the Taint 1 hour into the game, or dies while trying to become a Grey Warden:(
But maybe you´ll get a meaningful choice (player agency, yay!)  in the form of the colour of the gravestone (grey, brown or an outrageous shade of pink).

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 17 mars 2012 - 05:33 .

[Das Tentakel]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

What do you think Hawke of this pestilent of a city? askes the artishok.

Wait...artishok?

 sjplaakgeblek? or just a spelling mistake?

[Das Tentakel]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

What do you think Hawke of this pestilent of a city? askes the artishok.

Wait...artishok?

 sjplaakgeblek? or just a spelling mistake?

spellingmistake not a sjplaakgeblek.

I turned a behemoth into a vegetable...........

Behold, the Artishok. Tremble and despair, ye Templars!



(artisjok in Dutch, artishok in Bulgarian )

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 17 mars 2012 - 08:17 .