1306 réponses à ce sujet

[DarkAmaranth1966]

LOL even Microsoft Word wants to do it in English - type Arishock and it wants to make it Artichoke.

Google Chrome (my web browser gives me Aristotle, Aristocratic, Shocking or, Aristarchus for "proper" spelling of the word. LOL)

[Pasquale1234]

Okay, I just choked on my beverage. Funniest thing I've seen in a very long while.

Honestly, I'm always impressed at how well non-native speakers in these forums do with English.

And I'm imagining a statue of Hawke Championing over an artichoke.

[Elhanan]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Okay, I just choked on my beverage. Funniest thing I've seen in a very long while.

Honestly, I'm always impressed at how well non-native speakers in these forums do with English.

And I'm imagining a statue of Hawke Championing over an artichoke.

Might be the sprouts growing from his head causing confusion....

[batlin]

Elhanan wrote...
Hmmm....

http://en.wikipedia....erary_technique

style

Part of Speech:
noun

Definition:
fashion, manner

Synonyms:
appearance, approach, bearing, behavior, carriage, characteristic, cup of tea, custom, cut*, description, design, druthers, flash*, form, genre, groove*, habit, hand, idiosyncrasy, kind, method, mode, number, pattern, peculiarity, rage*, sort, spirit, strain, technique, tenor, thing*, tone, trait, trend, type, variety, vein, vogue, way
* = informal/non-formal usage


Break me off a piece of that Kit-Kat bar....

Thanks for the vocabulary lesson. I know what "style" means, I'm pointing out that having a consistent story structure is fundamental. DA2 plays like it's an episodic TV show where even the plots of each show aren't focused on entirely.

Also I like how you're gradually condceding more and more of my posts. Like just now you completely side-stepped my response to your Perry Mason analogy.

Modifié par batlin, 19 mars 2012 - 12:04 .

[Das Tentakel]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

I have to agree on that batlin. I'm just a girl with two brainparts in constant conflict of each other but there are things that do not add up in DA2. A lot of things are thrown at you but are not explaned or are tossed aside intirely. (do not know if I spelled that right)

DA2 misses that little something that gives answers where needed and throws a bone to make you more curious of the rest of the story. The scale isn't set right. There are to many unanswered questions. The plots are introduced but not ended. Just like you say its an episodic TV show. Allthough maybe a bit harsh but it feels like the writers sometimes didn't punt the dods to the i (puntjes op de i zetten). It's Dutch do not know how to translate it into english.

You mean 'Dot your i's and cross your t's'. 
Did know that saying, but had to check first 

Yes, could be that they really needed some additional time, at every phase of the project.

But what they set out to do may not have been very wise either, not in combination with a short dev cycle.
For one thing, Bioware, at least post-Baldur's Gate, just is not very good at creating the large, varied and somewhat dynamic kind of city that was needed for DA2. I don't want to diss DA:O, but its settlements were also pretty static and lifeless - they just seem more lively and 'lived-in' than Kirkwall and the DA2 Dalish camp because, well, Kirkwall really is a low point in RPG city design.

And while I think that Bioware is usually pretty good at characterization and dialog, I am not so sure about their ability to do a really complex tale. DA:O, ME2, ME3 all use a simple overall framework ('gather allies and beat the Great Enemy') to connect a number of more interesting, but smaller-scale (character-based or location-based) stories.
Connecting all those stories in another way, weaving a complex narrative web, that's a very different kettle of fish. One that perhaps requires both skill in/experience at this kind of thing, and above all sufficient development time.
A more complex set-up is much easier to screw up<_<

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 19 mars 2012 - 01:30 .

[batlin]

I have to point this out too.

TjM78 wrote...

Sales?


By that logic  Britney Spears>>>Social Distortion

Britney Spears and Social Distortion cater to completely different demographics. DA:O and DA2 cater to the same demographic, and of that demographic, it's clear from the sales that twice as many preferred DA:O over DA2.

[Sylvius the Mad]

batlin wrote...

DA:O and DA2 cater to the same demographic

Given the games themselves, that's hard to believe.  They're two very different games.

[Vaeliorin]

batlin wrote...
I have to point this out too.

TjM78 wrote...
Sales?


By that logic  Britney Spears>>>Social Distortion

Britney Spears and Social Distortion cater to completely different demographics. DA:O and DA2 cater to the same demographic, and of that demographic, it's clear from the sales that twice as many preferred DA:O over DA2.

I think you could claim that DA and DA2 purport to cater to the same demographic.  Whether they do or not, of course, depends on how strictly you define your demographics.

[Elhanan]

batlin wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Hmmm....

http://en.wikipedia....erary_technique

Thanks for the vocabulary lesson. I know what "style" means, I'm pointing out that having a consistent story structure is fundamental. DA2 plays like it's an episodic TV show where even the plots of each show aren't focused on entirely.

Also I like how you're gradually condceding more and more of my posts. Like just now you completely side-stepped my response to your Perry Mason analogy.

Reason I even mentioned Perry Mason is that I am no expert of literature, and did not know what style is used in these tales; thus the link to Literary Technique.

DA2 does not spell out every little thing; no need to do so as the avg gamer in the genre does not require basics on magic, demons, possession, etc. But it certainly does not take a genius to follow Hawke in the story by Varric. The mystery is why Varric is being questioned, and was told to go to the beginning. It is later that we discover the artifact/ Boss combo; both shown seperately earlier with their own indv quirks.

And I concede nothing other than I will not respond to all the strawmen examples you continue to build; so get used to the silence and possible disappointment.

[Morroian]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

I'm still waiting for an explanation of demographic to detemine if that matters or not. To be continued

A sector of the population with similar tastes.

[Realmzmaster]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Pardon me, I am just a simple girl. Please explane demographic? If I knew what it is then I could respond to it.

Demographic is a section of the population sharing common characteristics, such as age, sex, class, etc.

What is being stated is those who bought DAO and DA2 are in the same demographic. The group shares similar tastes and desires in their gaming perference.

This is an assumption. The assumption would have to be tested by gathering enough statistical data on those who bought DAO and DA2  to arrive at a conclusion.

[batlin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Given the games themselves, that's hard to believe.  They're two very different games.

They are both swords-and-sorcery fantasy RPGs, they have the same general gameplay, and they are in the same series and continuity. You really can't get much closer to the same demographic than that.

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Sylvius, I agree with you that they are two very different gamens.

The thought behind them to begin with. DAO took place in a vast enviroment while DA2 took place in a city and its surroundings.

DAO is about the bligt

DA2 is about Kirkwall : templar/mages conflict

these are the basics.

If you want to discuss the matter off appearence ok. Buth these are the basics. You like it/like it not.

I'm still waiting for an explanation of demographic to detemine if that matters or not. To be continued

Actually, DA2 is also about Hawke's rise to nobility and the Qunari occupation. They all take up a third of the story and have little to nothing to do with each other, hence the issue of the fragmented plot in DA2.

And a "demographic" is a part of the population with similar interests. For example, fans of RPGs are one demographic. Men above age 21 are one demographic. Rish people are a demographic. I'm sayng that since DA:O and DA2 (presumably) both cater to fantasy RPG fans, the fact that DA2 has half the sales DA:O has is not a case of a difference in target audience like Britney Spears vs. Social Distortion is.

Elhanan wrote...

Reason I even mentioned Perry Mason is that I am no expert of literature, and did not know what style is used in these tales; thus the link to Literary Technique.

DA2 does not spell out every little thing; no need to do so as the avg gamer in the genre does not require basics on magic, demons, possession, etc. But it certainly does not take a genius to follow Hawke in the story by Varric. The mystery is why Varric is being questioned, and was told to go to the beginning. It is later that we discover the artifact/ Boss combo; both shown seperately earlier with their own indv quirks.

And I concede nothing other than I will not respond to all the strawmen examples you continue to build; so get used to the silence and possible disappointment.

I'm not sure you know what a "strawman" is. It certainly has nothing do do with, say, how all the primary quests in DA:O are directly related to the blight and that fact is clear from the beginning as opposed to how in DA2 there are three plots and nothing is built up until the act the event takes place in. The mystery in DA2 isn't why Varric is being questioned, it's why any of the crap with the deeproads or the Qunari matters if the only reason he is recounting those parts is to explain how the idol got into Meredeth's possession, and why any of that is necessary to explain Anders' actions. The answer to those mysteries? Not given. Yet another problem with the segmeted stories.

Modifié par batlin, 19 mars 2012 - 09:14 .

[Elhanan]

batlin wrote...

I'm not sure you know what a "strawman" is. It certainly has nothing do do with, say, how all the primary quests in DA:O are directly related to the blight and that fact is clear from the beginning as opposed to how in DA2 there are three plots and nothing is built up until the act the event takes place in. The mystery in DA2 isn't why Varric is being questioned, it's why any of the crap with the deeproads or the Qunari matters if the only reason he is recounting those parts is to explain how the idol got into Meredeth's possession, and why any of that is necessary to explain Anders' actions. The answer to those mysteries? Not given. Yet another problem with the segmeted stories.

Because the expedition is the How & Where the idol was found, and the Qunari explains How and Why Hawke became Champion w/ large statue at the Docks. The Who is in the intro, the What is placing the idol with Merdeith, and When are the events over that past decade that led to the War.

Easy Peasy!

[Wulfram]

It's not Hawke's statue. Well, if it is then my Female Mage hawke would feel rather offended.

Varric does seem unnecessarily longwinded.

"The **** we just randomly picked up on an expedition to the **** *****. My ******* swiped it and flogged it to ********. Hawke killed the ******* and everyone thought that made him the ******** for some reason, but he had ****** all to do with blowing up the *******, or the **** rebellion.  That was all ******'s fault."

No need to rabbit on about all the other stuff, since it's not really relevant.

edit: realised this is a non spoiler forum.

Modifié par Wulfram, 19 mars 2012 - 12:27 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Forget Bhelen, Petrice, etc; options are nice, but not required. In the narrative. There is no problem; some dialogue allows for more reason to doubt her veracity than others, but she lives.

But why?  Fropm Hawke's perspective, Hawke's own actions don't make any sense.

That's the problem.  If I'm roleplaying my character, I view the in-game events solely from his perspective.  Hawke doesn't know there's a story being told, so the demands of the narrative are unknown to him.

Why does Hawke never react to Petric?  What reasons does Hawke have never to do such a thing?

Exactly.   Hawke doesn't know there's "a story".  Hawke only knows what Hawke the character knows.  When Hawke isn't allowed to act on Hawke's knowledge because "it would hurt the story", you've created a large incongruity.

Actually Hawke can act he can choose to inform the Viscount of his suspicions and the Viscount says he will make enquiries, you have to look at it in context, Petrice is most certainly maniacal and Xenophobic and a religous extremist, However Wealthly or influencial Hawke may be even the Viscount could not take Accusations as fact especially against a sister in the chantry as fact In the same way that no person would walk up to the Pope and call him a child molester because some catholic priests have got too touchy feely with young children.

Even if you were to kill Petrice what would it solve someone would just take her place Petrice is nothing more than a symptom of the real cause which is the Chantry and its intolerance towards other faiths particualy towards any that bring the claims of the chantry into disrepute, very similar to how in RL a certain catholic scientist was ex comunicated when he discovered that contary to the church's beliefs that the Earth rotated around the Sun and not the other way around and that also contrary to catholic teachings at the time the earth was not flat. 

That's not the point. 

The way Hawke plays out in the game, typically, people who try to kill Hawke end up dead. 

Unless, like Petrice, they're "needed for the story".  Then, mysteriously, you have no choice, she gets to walk away.
If someone else takes her place, that would be fine -- if it weren't for the fact that it would be just another instance in DA2 of nothing you can do making any difference.  

 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Realmzmaster wrote...

TheStrand221 wrote...

I forgot about the Viscount.

Petrice just needs better plot armor than Hawke's passivity, that's the issue.  Others in this thread have already made substantial arguments as to why killing Petrice in Lowtown is not convincingly suicidal, especially given the reams of Templars you butcher.  There is no reason to believe Hawke and company would be hunted.

You have butchered no templars up to this point. Only after Shepharding Wolves do you get that opportunity. So at this point Hawke would become a hunted man/woman especially considereing you have no proof for  your reason to kill Petrice and Varnell.  What evidence does Hawke have of anything Petrice and Varnell are doing?

As opposed to how they're able to ID and arrest Hawke after all the other slaughters Hawke is involved in? 



Compared to all the bloody street massacres Hawke is involved in, killing Petrice and Varnell in a Lowtown hovell, after the pair have gone to great lengths to make sure it's secret... the idea that any consequences would follow for Hawke is laughable. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

maxernst wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

Of the hundreds of people Hawke has killed in Kirkwall - many of them in the open streets - why is he all of a sudden worried about getting caught or illegality w/ whacking Petrice out of sight in a Lowtown hovel?

Well, yeah, the lack of consequence for Hawke's mass murdering activities is problematic.  I really don't know why Bioware decided to set the entire game in a city when they appear to have wanted to remove almost all non-combat gameplay.  Cities shouldn't double as dungeons.  Where the hell are the guard patrols Aveline keeps talking about?

I remember thinking that when Meredith called me out on not killing the mage from the noble family.  How does she know he's not one of the dozens of exploded bodies I've left lying all over Kirkwall?

Like the civilians of Kirkwall, those guards are often standing around as scene dressing within plain view of Hawke being attacked by various fanatics, thugs, lowlives, and slavers all over the streets of Kirkwall, night and day.

[Killjoy Cutter]

maxernst wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

No because you remember Emeric started investigating because one of the older female mages went missing. So just imagine if a sister and templar went missing or found murdered. Somebody will want to know why. It only takes one person to wonder and start digging.

A mage is an entirely different matter.  It's the Templars job to track down mages. They're not supposed to "vanish".  Again, lots of tTemplars are found murdered in the chantry, then possibly a bunch more found murdered in the street and nobody ever asks any questions.  Lots of people get murdered in Kirkwall and she was in a dangerous neighborhood for unknown reasons.  If she gets found, they'll probably think somebody just wanted to steal her stuff.

And what were a sister and a templar doing alone, together, at night, in a Lowtown hovell? 

Huh?  Huh? 

[Elhanan]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Like the civilians of Kirkwall, those guards are often standing around as scene dressing within plain view of Hawke being attacked by various fanatics, thugs, lowlives, and slavers all over the streets of Kirkwall, night and day.

Seeing as the guards have actually asked for help, the captain has his full support, the Viscount's office is for hiring mercs, etc; no trouble trouncing offenders that prowl the streets around the city. And the guards are protecting the civilians from the carnage....