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[batlin]

lx_theo wrote...

Hawke's large, symbolic, and reputation of being involved in the beginning of the Mage Revolution gives him the POTENTIAL to be very important in it during the coming parts. His competency in battle and general ability to get things done give him the ability to get things done with that potential.

I'd like to emphasize the point that his importance going forward isn't so much because of his influence in causing it, but because of how people see and perceive his involvement. It garners the respect and reputation to create the potential to get stuff done.

Now whether he has any real relevancy to any part of the Revolution but the beginning is not up for debate. Why? We haven't seen if he even has any involvement in it to come. We haven't seen the story for DA3 yet. We can only see he has the potential to make a difference in it, not that he will.

A couple things:

Firstly, Anders too is known by the Chantry as indicated by the Seeker being familiar with him what Varric brings him up, and the public at large as indicated by that book the Seeker has that chronicles Hawke's story. And Anders had true relevance to the war and, like Hawke, is also competent in battle. Unlike Hawke, Anders was well-known by the mages living underground in Kirkwall and for years was their protector. By all accounts Anders seems like the more logical choice to search for than Hawke.

Secondly, it is entirely possible that Hawke has some relevance to ending the war that we are just not aware of yet.

HOWEVER

This discussion of Hawke's relevance came about because it was suggested that the reason for the disjointed story was to unravel the purpose of Hawke is being sought after by the chantry. If we are to accept that yes, Hawke's relevence simply is not made clear yet, then we must accept that there is no purpose for the story to be disjointed. My point here is that either we accept that the story structure is flawed or we accept that there are a lot of plot holes in the chantry's motivations.

Modifié par batlin, 05 avril 2012 - 02:39 .

[lx_theo]

batlin wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Hawke's large, symbolic, and reputation of being involved in the beginning of the Mage Revolution gives him the POTENTIAL to be very important in it during the coming parts. His competency in battle and general ability to get things done give him the ability to get things done with that potential.

I'd like to emphasize the point that his importance going forward isn't so much because of his influence in causing it, but because of how people see and perceive his involvement. It garners the respect and reputation to create the potential to get stuff done.

Now whether he has any real relevancy to any part of the Revolution but the beginning is not up for debate. Why? We haven't seen if he even has any involvement in it to come. We haven't seen the story for DA3 yet. We can only see he has the potential to make a difference in it, not that he will.

A couple things:

Firstly, Anders too is known by the Chantry as indicated by the Seeker being familiar with him what Varric brings him up, and the public at large as indicated by that book the Seeker has that chronicles Hawke's story. And Anders had true relevance to the war and, like Hawke, is also competent in battle. Unlike Hawke, Anders was well-known by the mages living underground in Kirkwall and for years was their protector. By all accounts Anders seems like the more logical choice to search for than Hawke.

Secondly, it is entirely possible that Hawke has some relevance to ending the war that we are just not aware of yet.

HOWEVER

This discussion of Hawke's relevance came about because it was suggested that the reason for the disjointed story was to unravel the purpose of Hawke is being sought after by the chantry. If we are to accept that yes, Hawke's relevence simply is not made clear yet, then we must accept that there is no purpose for the story to be disjointed. My point here is that either we accept that the story structure is flawed or we accept that there are a lot of plot holes in the chantry's motivations.

Anders being known as an underground helper doesn't make much of a difference. Remember how the last fight ended. Meredith became superpowered and Hawke does an defeats her. As they left, you could see the awe and fear all the templars showed on their face. Obviously the intention here, in context with the rest of the game, is that a legend was born of the event.

Varric also played a huge role in developing this legend. He constantly created and spread tales of Hawke's exaggerated heroics throughout Kirkwall, which spread moreso after that. Overall, whether another person had more to do with influencing doesn't matter, because Hawke had, through Varric's stories and the ending of DA2, developed into such a legend that Cassandra would be foolish to look for someone else.



As for the disjointedness...

The reason the story is disjointed is because Cassandra was searching for answers on why the Revolution happened and where to fins Hawke. Varric told the story of everything relevant to the question at hand. The expedition, his defeat/appeasement of the Qunari, and the final event all help tell the reality of how and why it started. The companion's stories tell of both their involvement in causing the events, as well as their relationship with Hawke to give clues as to where he may be. The game focused on the important story moment to answer those two questions.

[batlin]

lx_theo wrote...

Anders being known as an underground helper doesn't make much of a difference. Remember how the last fight ended. Meredith became superpowered and Hawke does an defeats her. As they left, you could see the awe and fear all the templars showed on their face. Obviously the intention here, in context with the rest of the game, is that a legend was born of the event.

If there was a legend that the Knight Commander of Kirkwall went insane with power and Hawke killed her then surely the Seeker would be aware of that part of the story, right?

Varric also played a huge role in developing this legend. He constantly created and spread tales of Hawke's exaggerated heroics throughout Kirkwall, which spread moreso after that. Overall, whether another person had more to do with influencing doesn't matter, because Hawke had, through Varric's stories and the ending of DA2, developed into such a legend that Cassandra would be foolish to look for someone else.

And we're back to saying Hawke being important simply because he/she's a legend. Well there are other legends around that are more readily available than Hawke. Alistair, for one. If the ending of DA2 told us anything it's that Hawke had absolutely nothing to do with the events than transpired and how he/she resolved it is equally irrelevant since the cirlcles all turn on the Chantry no matter what. Is Hawke a legend? Yes, but that's made clear from the very beginning. If indeed the point of the story is to find out why, that hardly has any relevance to why the Chantry wants Hawke since all you claim they care about is the legend, NOT what factually transpired.

So even if we're to accept that the chantry only cares about Hawke's legend, that still doesn't justify having a disjointed story.

As for the disjointedness...

The reason the story is disjointed is because Cassandra was searching for answers on why the Revolution happened and where to fins Hawke. Varric told the story of everything relevant to the question at hand. The expedition, his defeat/appeasement of the Qunari, and the final event all help tell the reality of how and why it started. The companion's stories tell of both their involvement in causing the events, as well as their relationship with Hawke to give clues as to where he may be. The game focused on the important story moment to answer those two questions.

Well no, according to the intro and the interim in Act 1 it's clear that Cassandra is searching for Hawke's whereabouts because she thinks Hawke did was in actuality Anders did. And the Deeproads expedition and Qunari occupation are only relevant in getting the idol into Meredeth's hands; ultimately they're entirely irrelevant to the information Cassandra wants.

Modifié par batlin, 05 avril 2012 - 03:45 .

[lx_theo]

batlin wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Anders being known as an underground helper doesn't make much of a difference. Remember how the last fight ended. Meredith became superpowered and Hawke does an defeats her. As they left, you could see the awe and fear all the templars showed on their face. Obviously the intention here, in context with the rest of the game, is that a legend was born of the event.

If there was a legend that the Knight Commander of Kirkwall went insane with power and Hawke killed her then surely the Seeker would be aware of that part of the story, right?

Yes, it was made pretty obvious there was a legend and story the Seeker knew. She only knew there must be more to it (But she still didn't know anymore than that). This was made obvious by the beginning with the legend opening.

Varric also played a huge role in developing this legend. He constantly created and spread tales of Hawke's exaggerated heroics throughout Kirkwall, which spread moreso after that. Overall, whether another person had more to do with influencing doesn't matter, because Hawke had, through Varric's stories and the ending of DA2, developed into such a legend that Cassandra would be foolish to look for someone else.

And we're back to saying Hawke being important simply because he/she's a legend. Well there are other legends around that are more readily available than Hawke. Alistair, for one. If the ending of DA2 told us anything it's that Hawke had absolutely nothing to do with the events than transpired and how he/she resolved it is equally irrelevant since the cirlcles all turn on the Chantry no matter what. Is Hawke a legend? Yes, but that's made clear from the very beginning. If indeed the point of the story is to find out why, that hardly has any relevance to why the Chantry wants Hawke since all you claim they care about is the legend, NOT was factually transpired.

So even if we're to accept that the chantry only cares about Hawke's legend, that still doesn't justify having a disjointed story.

Alistair is a king. Chances are he's not available or doing his own thing. They already said they couldn't find the Warden. 

Hawke being irrelevent is not made clear at any point in the game, only that Hawke did not purposely caused or influenced the events like on purpose.

As for why they are looking for him, its exactly what Cassandra said, Hawke's action led to a legend that was respected by either the Mages or Templars. Hawke has enough clout because of this to make a difference. they don't only care about the legend, but its very relevant in terms of why he's needed and why they would seek out Hawke before learning the truth.

As for the disjointedness...



The reason the story is disjointed is because Cassandra was searching for answers on why the Revolution happened and where to fins Hawke. Varric told the story of everything relevant to the question at hand. The expedition, his defeat/appeasement of the Qunari, and the final event all help tell the reality of how and why it started. The companion's stories tell of both their involvement in causing the events, as well as their relationship with Hawke to give clues as to where he may be. The game focused on the important story moment to answer those two questions.

[
Well no, according to the intro and the interim in Act 1 it's clear that Cassandra is searching for Hawke's whereabouts because she thinks Hawke did was in actuality Anders did. And the Deeproads expedition and Qunari occupation are only relevant in getting the idol into Meredeth's hands; ultimately they're entirely irrelevant to the information Cassandra wants.

No, its not made clear. The only things they say is that she thinks that Hawke was the ringleader that caused much of it by being the mastermind of everything. Nothing suggest that she thinks Hawke actually did it. 

The Deep Roads is relevant because it clears up why the Idol even came about adn for what reasons, and Qunari occupation was relevant because it shows a step into the role of Champion for Hawke, explaining the reason Hawke had the influence to sway the final events the way he did. While these aren't extremely important, Cassandra asked for the full story, meaning anything relevant enough to paint a clearer picture.



As fo why, like i already said, she said herself that she wants to find Hawke because he can help find a path to peace. This is, for the reason she also said, because he has enough respect and clout with the mages/templars to influence them going forward. This respect adn clout come from, as I've said, the legends that developed around Hawke.

[Adanu]

batlin wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Don't take me leaving your talking to a brick wall debate as me conceding anything. I debate happily with people who are open to others points of view. You, are not.

You constantly seek strawmen and have your own twisted variants of definitions and only look at things at face value in regards to this subject. YOu and Sylvius both have that in common, which makes it impossible to have a decent debate with you.

If you are willing to listen and not just hear, I'm happy to talk about it. SO far, you haven't shown yourself capable of that.

Oh the animosity. Everything I've responded to you with has been a direct response to what you post. I haven't been reiterating things unless you post the same thing over and over. Who's the brick wall here? Who keeps saying "Hawke is important and if you can't see that I can't help you" over and over?

Adanu wrote...

Ok... I'll just point this bit out for you, and *maybe* you'll get it.

Without Hawke, Varric would never have gotten the deep roads journey going, and the idol down there would never have left the Thaig.

Regardless of anything else, if you actually think that through, you'll see how Hawke was directly involved in starting the war.

Well by that logic, isn't Bartrand far more important than Hawke since he is the one who organized and funded the majority of the expedition, AND is the one who took the idol from the thaig? And even if Hawke were key to locating the idol, so what? does Hawke have unique knowledge of the idol? Is knowledge of the idol relevant to ending the war? doubtful on both accounts.

At best, Hawke is very, very indirectly responsible for starting the war. Directly? Not at all. Meredeth and Anders directly instigated the war since they were actively seeking it and took actions specifically to make it happen. Hawke unwittingly assisted in getting an artifact that drove Meredeth over the edge sooner. That's hardly direct involvement.

That's it, yet another point twisted to your 'logic' and bias. Barttrand was not going to get the journey going at all without Hawkes funding. If you can't even bother to understand this, then no amount of debate is going to get anywhere with you. I'm done.

Have fun with your biased arrogance.

[batlin]

lx_theo wrote...

Yes, it was made pretty obvious there was a legend and story the Seeker knew. She only knew there must be more to it (But she still didn't know anymore than that). This was made obvious by the beginning with the legend opening.

I have a pretty good memory but I can't recall any scene where the Seeker let on that she knew that Meredeth went insane and turned on the templars, who was then killed by Hawke.

Alistair is a king. Chances are he's not available or doing his own thing. They already said they couldn't find the Warden.

All the Circles turning on the Chantry and causing war between two extremely powerful factions definitely seems like something the king of Ferelden should be concerned about, especially Alistair himself who used to be a templar.

Hawke being irrelevent is not made clear at any point in the game, only that Hawke did not purposely caused or influenced the events like on purpose.

Yeah. That's my point. There were others who had far more of an effect on the war than Hawke did and therefore are more relevant.

As for why they are looking for him, its exactly what Cassandra said, Hawke's action led to a legend that was respected by either the Mages or Templars. Hawke has enough clout because of this to make a difference. they don't only care about the legend, but its very relevant in terms of why he's needed and why they would seek out Hawke before learning the truth.

But again, if they only wanted Hawke because they believe his/her legend will provide enough clout to influence the war, why do they care about the details? What would knowing what Hawke did change?

No, its not made clear. The only things they say is that she thinks that Hawke was the ringleader that caused much of it by being the mastermind of everything. Nothing suggest that she thinks Hawke actually did it.

Semantics. She believed Hawke was behind it.

The Deep Roads is relevant because it clears up why the Idol even came about adn for what reasons, and Qunari occupation was relevant because it shows a step into the role of Champion for Hawke, explaining the reason Hawke had the influence to sway the final events the way he did. While these aren't extremely important, Cassandra asked for the full story, meaning anything relevant enough to paint a clearer picture.

But since you agree that on the whole it isn't relevant to the mage/templar war then you must also agree that the Qunari plot also had no reason to be so insular, yes?

As fo why, like i already said, she said herself that she wants to find Hawke because he can help find a path to peace. This is, for the reason she also said, because he has enough respect and clout with the mages/templars to influence them going forward. This respect adn clout come from, as I've said, the legends that developed around Hawke.

Yeah, I get that they think Hawke is influential enough to end the war. My issues are A) They were looking for Hawke initially because they believend he was a criminal, not because they believed he was their savior.  Cassandra doesn't tell Leliana about her revelation of Hawke at the end and yet Leiana acts like she already knows what Cassandra learned. C) There are other legendary or prominent figures in Ferelden who are more likely to sway the war, like Alistair, Irving, both with greater ties to the templars and mages respectfully, unlike Hawke who no matter who he sides with the end result is the same (In fact in one ending Hawke ends up ruling Kirkwall and yet war still comes about; so there's a precedent against Hawke preventing the war) and D) Ultimately, Hawke did nothing an army of templars couldn't have. K?

Modifié par batlin, 05 avril 2012 - 11:14 .

[batlin]

Adanu wrote...

That's it, yet another point twisted to your 'logic' and bias. Barttrand was not going to get the journey going at all without Hawkes funding. If you can't even bother to understand this, then no amount of debate is going to get anywhere with you. I'm done.

Have fun with your biased arrogance.

I guess you didn't pay enough attention to my post to see this part:

Who's the brick wall here? Who keeps saying "Hawke is important and if you can't see that I can't help you" over and over?

Bartrand would have found an investor eventually. Hawke on the other hand would never have gotten the means to set up an excursion into the Deeproads before Bartrand could find the idol. If Hawke could, then he probably wouldn't have needed to bother Bartrand about letting him in on the expedition now, would he?

Even granting that Hawke was absolutely necessary for the expedition to happen, he's still only indirectly responsible for the idol driving meredeth insane.

Modifié par batlin, 05 avril 2012 - 11:39 .

[lx_theo]

[quote]batlin wrote...

[quote]lx_theo wrote...

Yes, it was made pretty obvious there was a legend and story the Seeker knew. She only knew there must be more to it (But she still didn't know anymore than that). This was made obvious by the beginning with the legend opening.[/quote]

I have a pretty good memory but I can't recall any scene where the Seeker let on that she knew that Meredeth went insane and turned on the templars, who was then killed by Hawke.[/quote]

Specifically that? I'm not sure it was mentioned, but it was implied heavily.

First of all, at the beginning, Varric says "Does that not match the story you've heard?" Which obviously implies she is aware the legend.

Laster, she gives her reason for wanting the truth being that Hawke was respected enough by Mages/Templars for his actions in helping the templars or the mages at the beginning of the revolution. Obviously she didn't need know the truth yet, so she must have been acting on the legend when decidinng to seek out Hawke.

[quote] 

[quote]Alistair is a king. Chances are he's not available or doing his own thing. They already said they couldn't find the Warden. [/quote]

All the Circles turning on the Chantry and causing war between two extremely powerful factions definitely seems like something the king of Ferelden should be concerned about, especially Alistair himself who used to be a templar.
[/quote]

Doesn't mean he's not concerned or doing something about it. It just means he's likely doing something else with it that doesn't involve the Seekers. Or better yet, he could already be working with them. Hawke was just another ally they were hoping to recruit to their cause.
[quote]
[quote]Hawke being irrelevent is not made clear at any point in the game, only that Hawke did not purposely caused or influenced the events like on purpose.[/quote]

Yeah. That's my point. There were others who had far more of an effect on the war than Hawke did and therefore are more relevant.
[/quote]
Relevancy has NOTHING to do with intention.

[quote]
[quote]As for why they are looking for him, its exactly what Cassandra said, Hawke's action led to a legend that was respected by either the Mages or Templars. Hawke has enough clout because of this to make a difference. they don't only care about the legend, but its very relevant in terms of why he's needed and why they would seek out Hawke before learning the truth.[/quote]

But again, if they only wanted Hawke because they believe his/her legend will provide enough clout to influence the war, why do they care about the details? What would knowing what Hawke did change?
[/quote]
Some details would help find Hawke.

Some details would clear up the reasoning and series of events that led up to the beginning of the Mage Revolution.

Some details are there simply because the Seekers of Truth are likely to prefer to be dealing with the reality of what happened when they try to interact with the actual person over a legend. Its only helpful.

[quote]
[quote]No, its not made clear. The only things they say is that she thinks that Hawke was the ringleader that caused much of it by being the mastermind of everything. Nothing suggest that she thinks Hawke actually did it.[/quote]

Semantics. She believed Hawke was behind it.
[/quote]

Which is irrelevant itself.

[quote]

[quote]The Deep Roads is relevant because it clears up why the Idol even came about adn for what reasons, and Qunari occupation was relevant because it shows a step into the role of Champion for Hawke, explaining the reason Hawke had the influence to sway the final events the way he did. While these aren't extremely important, Cassandra asked for the full story, meaning anything relevant enough to paint a clearer picture.[/quote]

But since you agree that on the whole it isn't relevant to the mage/templar war then you must also agree that the Qunari plot also had no reason to be so insular, yes?
[/quote]
Events happened over time. It'd be less realistic to assume the build up to the Revolution happened almost all at once. Its not like they have internet or anything like that. The Qunari plot being distinctly seperate time wise is simply there - like the others - to show the passage of time as the situation grew more and more towards its boiling point.

[quote]

[quote]As fo why, like i already said, she said herself that she wants to find Hawke because he can help find a path to peace. This is, for the reason she also said, because he has enough respect and clout with the mages/templars to influence them going forward. This respect adn clout come from, as I've said, the legends that developed around Hawke.[/quote]

Yeah, I get that they think Hawke is influential enough to end the war. My issues are A) They were looking for Hawke initially because they believend he was a criminal, not because they believed he was their savior.  Cassandra doesn't tell Leliana about her revelation of Hawke at the end and yet Leiana acts like she already knows what Cassandra learned. C) There are other legendary or prominent figures in Ferelden who are more likely to sway the war, like Alistair, Irving, both with greater ties to the templars and mages respectfully, unlike Hawke who no matter who he sides with the end result is the same (In fact in one ending Hawke ends up ruling Kirkwall and yet war still comes about; so there's a precedent against Hawke preventing the war) and D) Ultimately, Hawke did nothing an army of templars couldn't have. K?

[/quote]
A) No... they were not. They thought he was to blame by masterminding it, but they seemed to be more concerned with getting his help. The impression I took from it was that they intended to try and convince an extremely capable person who may well be against their cause to join them, in whatever way they would have planned to try it.

Just a story telling mechanic. More dramatic than her stopping adn recounting it all. Not to mention, I went back and rewatched it on youtube. She doesn't really act like she knows anything specific about the truth.

C) No, this is a WORLD WIDE rebellion. Aliostair and Irving would have so much less clout than the legend that acts as the rallying cry for the mages/templars.

Him not stopping it at the beginning means nothing to what he can do in the future. If you want to argue precedent, then I can say that even siding with the Templars means that you still weren't trying to stop a revolution at the time. If he really wanted to stop it, he could have tried just that. He wasn't trying that. He was dealing with the City's problem, not trying to stop a revolution.

D) The Templars rebelled. They are a nonfactor for the Seekers in terms of helping.

[batlin]

[quote]lx_theo wrote...

Specifically that? I'm not sure it was mentioned, but it was implied heavily.

First of all, at the beginning, Varric says "Does that not match the story you've heard?" Which obviously implies she is aware the legend.[/quote]

No, that implies the legends about Hawke involve him/her to be a dragon-slaying hero who slaughters darkspawn by the hundreds. There's nothing in there to imply the Seeker knew anything about Meredeth.

[quote]Laster, she gives her reason for wanting the truth being that Hawke was respected enough by Mages/Templars for his actions in helping the templars or the mages at the beginning of the revolution. Obviously she didn't need know the truth yet, so she must have been acting on the legend when decidinng to seek out Hawke.[/quote]

How would Hawke be respected by the Templars if they all thought he/she was a terrorist who blew up their most holy sanctum

[quote]Doesn't mean he's not concerned or doing something about it. It just means he's likely doing something else with it that doesn't involve the Seekers. Or better yet, he could already be working with them. Hawke was just another ally they were hoping to recruit to their cause.
[/quote]

But then if Alistair is involved in the conflict, why would they need another legendary figure whom at first they didn't even know would have the respect of the templars and mages? 

[quote]Relevancy has NOTHING to do with intention.[/quote]

What? Hawke is not relevent in the templar/mage conflict, nor is Hawke uniquely-abled to stop it. Hawke is just a really famous figure from one city who most people aren't even aware of the specific deeds he/she did. I'd say that's pretty significant information that probably should factor into the Seeker's intentions.

[quote]Some details would help find Hawke.

Some details would clear up the reasoning and series of events that led up to the beginning of the Mage Revolution.

Some details are there simply because the Seekers of Truth are likely to prefer to be dealing with the reality of what happened when they try to interact with the actual person over a legend. Its only helpful.[/quote]

That would all make sense, if she weren't simply looking for Hawke because she thought he was a terrorist.

[quote]
Which is irrelevant itself.[/quote]

It's not irrelevant if it's the whole reason she's looking for him to begin with.

[quote]Events happened over time. It'd be less realistic to assume the build up to the Revolution happened almost all at once. Its not like they have internet or anything like that. The Qunari plot being distinctly seperate time wise is simply there - like the others - to show the passage of time as the situation grew more and more towards its boiling point.[/quote]

There are jumps in time between each act. What's the point of Varric detailing the events those specific couple days? Did he think the Seeker needed an intermission between the relevant information?

[quote]
A) No... they were not. They thought he was to blame by masterminding it, but they seemed to be more concerned with getting his help. The impression I took from it was that they intended to try and convince an extremely capable person who may well be against their cause to join them, in whatever way they would have planned to try it.[/quote]

Why then would Cassandra only bring up that she wanted Hawke to help them in the conflict after Varric finished his story? Wouldn't Varric have been far more willing to help if he knew they weren't looking for his friend so they could execute him/her? Again we come to a situation where either we have a plot hole or that the Seeker is just really stupid.

[quote] Just a story telling mechanic. More dramatic than her stopping adn recounting it all. Not to mention, I went back and rewatched it on youtube. She doesn't really act like she knows anything specific about the truth.[/quote]

Cassandra asks Leliana if they proceed witht he plan or keep looking. Tell me, why would she ask Leliana that unless she knew about all the relevant information she just learned? And it's not a storytelling mechanic, it's a failure of the narrative. If they can't pull off a flashback story without issues, why did they even do it that way to begin with?

[quote]C) No, this is a WORLD WIDE rebellion. Aliostair and Irving would have so much less clout than the legend that acts as the rallying cry for the mages/templars.[/quote]

And Hawke's actions were isolated to one single city whereas Alistair's accomplishments spanned across all of Ferelden and has clout with Denerim, the Dawrves, the ferelden mages, and the Dalish. Irving is the First Enchanter, a position that gives him a lot of respect throughout all the Circles. So why would Hawke, a person who is really famous for actions in one city, have more clout worldwide than figures who's actions and positions already ARE respected worldwide?

[quote]D) The Templars rebelled. They are a nonfactor for the Seekers in terms of helping.[/quote]

Then who are all those soldiers the Seeker has under her command?

Modifié par batlin, 24 avril 2012 - 10:19 .

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Zanallen wrote...

Filament wrote...

Djoxy wrote...
I just want DA:O2...

No you don't, stop being ridiculous. No one wanted that. The naysayers have assured me of this many times.

Damn straight. No one wanted DAO2. They just wanted a "good game" and that misalignment of expectations talk is all nonsense.

Spot on. That's why the process of eliminating roleplaying elements was essential for creating a sequel that would not be Origins. Dragon Age 2 succeeded in that the design process did away with as many features tied to Origins, and thus roleplaying, as possible, as the only (or easiest) way to ensure that the game would not be Origins 2 was to cut out as many features related to roleplaying as necessary.

Modifié par Fisto The Sexbot, 25 avril 2012 - 12:27 .

[Fast Jimmy]

My two cents here and I'll step out of the argument... if you have to argue oclver the course of multiple pages if the main character was important or even necessary, then there is possibly a deficiency in the story telling and character building in the narrative in question.

[batlin]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

My two cents here and I'll step out of the argument... if you have to argue oclver the course of multiple pages if the main character was important or even necessary, then there is possibly a deficiency in the story telling and character building in the narrative in question.

Yeah, good point

[Reznik23]

Honestly, I applaud Bioware for trying new things with DA:2.

Modifying the combat for example I think would be a good example of them actually listening to player feedback, same with the graphics.

Now I'm not saying that the changes pleased everyone, as we well know, but you've got to give them credit for not simply rehashing the same game over again, as is very common in the gaming world.

I thought that DA:2 was really one step up & two steps back from DA:O. While it wasn't a great Dragon Age sequel (I only played it through once, as opposed to 10 or 12 times through Origins), it was a good game. Certainly better than most of the crap getting around these days...

[Lamepro]

Reznik23 wrote...

Honestly, I applaud Bioware for trying new things with DA:2.

Modifying the combat for example I think would be a good example of them actually listening to player feedback, same with the graphics.

Now I'm not saying that the changes pleased everyone, as we well know, but you've got to give them credit for not simply rehashing the same game over again, as is very common in the gaming world.

I thought that DA:2 was really one step up & two steps back from DA:O. While it wasn't a great Dragon Age sequel (I only played it through once, as opposed to 10 or 12 times through Origins), it was a good game. Certainly better than most of the crap getting around these days...

Whatever Game Engine they were using in DA2 I like combat and the animation . The problem was they kept re-using the Wounded Coast and other locations in the game when your doing quest.

[hussey 92]

Reznik23 wrote...

Honestly, I applaud Bioware for trying new things with DA:2.

Except they didn't really try new things with DA2.  They more so copied the changes they put into Mass Effect 2.

[TEWR]

I liked the concepts of DAII's story. I feel that another year of development -- maybe two -- could've helped bring it to its full glory.

You want a proactive Hawke? You might've been able to play that.

You want a reactive Hawke? You could play that.

Sadly, the rushed dev cycle really killed it for me and all we got was a reactive Hawke.

The combat animations the party utilizes I like, but the combat itself is far from perfect. And paratrooping waves were the least important thing about that for me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mai 2012 - 04:16 .

[hussey 92]

I hated the combat in DA2. It looked cool but it defiantly wasn't at the same level as Origins. There was no auto-attack on the console versions so you would spend most of the fights button mashing instead of strategizing.

[LinksOcarina]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I liked the concepts of DAII's story. I feel that another year of development -- maybe two -- could've helped bring it to its full glory.

You want a proactive Hawke? You might've been able to play that.

You want a reactive Hawke? You could play that.

Sadly, the rushed dev cycle really killed it for me and all we got was a reactive Hawke.

The combat animations the party utilizes I like, but the combat itself is far from perfect. And paratrooping waves were the least important thing about that for me.

I think I said this before elsewhere, but wasn't the point that Hawke was reactive to the storyline?

I mean, Cassandra thought he was the insitgator of the entire Revolution, and Varric basically tells her thats not true; and he was merely the guy in the middle of things because of everyone he knew, and his role for stopping Meredith, the Arishok, and finding the idol.

So if Hawke was more proactive, then Cassandra would have no reason to talk to Varric then, as the entire myth surrounding him would be, more or less, true and correct, and Cassandra just needs to find him. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 03 mai 2012 - 02:20 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I think I said this before elsewhere, but wasn't the point that Hawke was reactive to the storyline?

I mean, Cassandra thought he was the insitgator of the entire Revolution, and Varric basically tells her thats not true; and he was merely the guy in the middle of things because of everyone he knew, and his role for stopping Meredith, the Arishok, and finding the idol.

So if Hawke was more proactive, then Cassandra would have no reason to talk to Varric then, as the entire myth surrounding him would be, more or less, true and correct, and Cassandra just needs to find him. 

But the things Hawke needs to do to become that guy aren't left in the player's hands.  Hawke is forced to hold opinions and take actions without any justification offered to the player at all, simply because he needs to have done so in order for the story to work at the end.

The only way I was able to wrap my head around it was to assume Varric was making it all up, and Hawke in fact never did most of those things.  But as soon as the gameplay stopped being relevant to my character, I stopped playing the game.

[LinksOcarina]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I think I said this before elsewhere, but wasn't the point that Hawke was reactive to the storyline?

I mean, Cassandra thought he was the insitgator of the entire Revolution, and Varric basically tells her thats not true; and he was merely the guy in the middle of things because of everyone he knew, and his role for stopping Meredith, the Arishok, and finding the idol.

So if Hawke was more proactive, then Cassandra would have no reason to talk to Varric then, as the entire myth surrounding him would be, more or less, true and correct, and Cassandra just needs to find him. 

But the things Hawke needs to do to become that guy aren't left in the player's hands.  Hawke is forced to hold opinions and take actions without any justification offered to the player at all, simply because he needs to have done so in order for the story to work at the end.

The only way I was able to wrap my head around it was to assume Varric was making it all up, and Hawke in fact never did most of those things.  But as soon as the gameplay stopped being relevant to my character, I stopped playing the game.

Well Varric is an unreliable narrator...but that said I feel you are wrong about Hawke needing to become that guy, when he was that guy. He never is forced to hold opinions back, he shares his opinions with everyone around him, he tries to stop people from doing the wrong thing. So you can choose to attempt to warn people, to stop them from doing things you think are wrong. Anders is a good example of this, I love the scenes in chapter 3 where you plead with him to try and stop his behavior, and even moreso when you can warn Cullen about it. Does it change what happens? No. But you did what you could to stop it, so you being reactive to Anders behavior.

So  to say that he never shared his opinions is not true at all, it is left in the player's hand because it is up to the player to decide if they do that or not. That is the basic definition of having choice with the consequences, the only difference here is you don't control the outcome, which actually makes sense, because of the given plot. So it fits the game properly, if you ask me.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 03 mai 2012 - 09:46 .

[batlin]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I think I said this before elsewhere, but wasn't the point that Hawke was reactive to the storyline?

I mean, Cassandra thought he was the insitgator of the entire Revolution, and Varric basically tells her thats not true; and he was merely the guy in the middle of things because of everyone he knew, and his role for stopping Meredith, the Arishok, and finding the idol.

So if Hawke was more proactive, then Cassandra would have no reason to talk to Varric then, as the entire myth surrounding him would be, more or less, true and correct, and Cassandra just needs to find him. 

You're trying to justify poor writing with more the writing. Yes, Cassandra probably wouldn't have had to take the steps she did had Hawke been proactive, but that doesn't change the fact that Hawke is pretty irrelevent in his/her own legend.

[TEWR]

LinksOcarina wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I liked the concepts of DAII's story. I feel that another year of development -- maybe two -- could've helped bring it to its full glory.

You want a proactive Hawke? You might've been able to play that.

You want a reactive Hawke? You could play that.

Sadly, the rushed dev cycle really killed it for me and all we got was a reactive Hawke.

The combat animations the party utilizes I like, but the combat itself is far from perfect. And paratrooping waves were the least important thing about that for me.

I think I said this before elsewhere, but wasn't the point that Hawke was reactive to the storyline?

I mean, Cassandra thought he was the insitgator of the entire Revolution, and Varric basically tells her thats not true; and he was merely the guy in the middle of things because of everyone he knew, and his role for stopping Meredith, the Arishok, and finding the idol.

So if Hawke was more proactive, then Cassandra would have no reason to talk to Varric then, as the entire myth surrounding him would be, more or less, true and correct, and Cassandra just needs to find him. 

It's always a good idea to find out what people who were actually there have to say on the matter, despite the fact that a legend may be true.

Forcing the player to always play the same type of protagonist kills replay value and cheapens a storyline. On subsequent playthroughs, Hawke will still be reactive. In the same way, to the same events, in every scenario. Nothing changes.

And I've said this before and I'll say it again, even had Hawke been proactive he wouldn't have proved Cassandra right. Helping the Mage Underground does not mean he instigated anything, because the Mage Underground had already been active in Kirkwall. Even had he joined, he wouldn't have started anything because the Mage-Templar War had been going on for centuries behind closed doors.

You can be proactive and fail to achieve your goal. That could've been Hawke. Had the story been done right -- IMO -- Hawke wouldn't have had any sense of proving Cassandra right that he caused the endgame conflict to happen, but he would've had a definite importance as to why he needs to be sought out, because the player could've given him one.

LinksOcarina wrote...

Anders is a good example of this, I love the scenes in chapter 3 where you plead with him to try and stop his behavior, and even moreso when you can warn Cullen about it. Does it change what happens? No. But you did what you could to stop it, so you being reactive to Anders behavior.

You thought... warning Cullen was.... good? Have you done it with Anders in your party? That's an example of some of the bad writing.

It didn't have to change what happens ultimately, but it could've changed how it played out. You could've seen Templars in the place saying they need to get that person out, but are too late to succeed in their endeavor.

That would've been a good example of some decent writing.

[LinksOcarina]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You thought... warning Cullen was.... good? Have you done it with Anders in your party? That's an example of some of the bad writing.

It didn't have to change what happens ultimately, but it could've changed how it played out. You could've seen Templars in the place saying they need to get that person out, but are too late to succeed in their endeavor.

That would've been a good example of some decent writing.

I did not have Anders in the party, no. I presume, if you are citing bad writing, he said something and Cullen did nothing. 

As for it changing nothing, yeah, seeing someone try to get people out would have been good,  but I chalk that up to dev-time issues over bad writing honestly.

[Sejborg]

I am not really sure what Bioware thinks about DA2 or Origins anymore. And that makes me uncertain about what direction they will take the franchise.

As much as I have gathered it seems they will make a mix of Origins and DA2. I fear it will be an abomination.

[TEWR]

LinksOcarina wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You thought... warning Cullen was.... good? Have you done it with Anders in your party? That's an example of some of the bad writing.

It didn't have to change what happens ultimately, but it could've changed how it played out. You could've seen Templars in the place saying they need to get that person out, but are too late to succeed in their endeavor.

That would've been a good example of some decent writing.

I did not have Anders in the party, no. I presume, if you are citing bad writing, he said something and Cullen did nothing. 

As for it changing nothing, yeah, seeing someone try to get people out would have been good,  but I chalk that up to dev-time issues over bad writing honestly.

The horrificness of this sequence is made even worse when you realize that the Captain of the Guard who upholds the law is there, that the Elf who abhors Anders is there, and the fact that if the Champion is warning Cullen about Anders in the Gallows he's probably not liking Anders currently.

Meaning you've got an army of Templars and 3 people who would more then likely fight Anders if they had to.

Which really points to one thing: Why does Anders get to walk away? I mean if it caused him to run away, killing a few Templars here and there but he was gone from the party, that'd be something. And then he comes back and bada-bing, bada-boom the place still blows up.

But.... really Cullen?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 mai 2012 - 12:29 .