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[LinksOcarina]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
You thought... warning Cullen was.... good? Have you done it with Anders in your party? That's an example of some of the bad writing.

It didn't have to change what happens ultimately, but it could've changed how it played out. You could've seen Templars in the place saying they need to get that person out, but are too late to succeed in their endeavor.

That would've been a good example of some decent writing.

I did not have Anders in the party, no. I presume, if you are citing bad writing, he said something and Cullen did nothing. 

As for it changing nothing, yeah, seeing someone try to get people out would have been good,  but I chalk that up to dev-time issues over bad writing honestly.

The horrificness of this sequence is made even worse when you realize that the Captain of the Guard who upholds the law is there, that the Elf who abhors Anders is there, and the fact that if the Champion is warning Cullen about Anders in the Gallows he's probably not liking Anders currently.

Meaning you've got an army of Templars and 3 people who would more then likely fight Anders if they had to.

Which really points to one thing: Why does Anders get to walk away? I mean if it caused him to run away, killing a few Templars here and there but he was gone from the party, that'd be something. And then he comes back and bada-bing, bada-boom the place still blows up.

But.... really Cullen?

Yeah...that is kinda bad. They should have had him arrested right there or have a mini-boss fight.

Still when I did without him he said the same thing...but I also did Anders stuff right at the end of the game, right before The Last Straw, so I didn't see the reprecusions.

[BloodyMays]

batlin wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I think I said this before elsewhere, but wasn't the point that Hawke was reactive to the storyline?

I mean, Cassandra thought he was the insitgator of the entire Revolution, and Varric basically tells her thats not true; and he was merely the guy in the middle of things because of everyone he knew, and his role for stopping Meredith, the Arishok, and finding the idol.

So if Hawke was more proactive, then Cassandra would have no reason to talk to Varric then, as the entire myth surrounding him would be, more or less, true and correct, and Cassandra just needs to find him. 

You're trying to justify poor writing with more the writing. Yes, Cassandra probably wouldn't have had to take the steps she did had Hawke been proactive, but that doesn't change the fact that Hawke is pretty irrelevent in his/her own legend.

A little off topic, but I just read the last 5 pages or so, to catch up with where this thread was at, and wanted to applaud you for thinking the story through so logically. There truly is no explaination as to why Hawke would be THE person the chantry is looking for. I think thats where people miss the point of your argument. 

There's no question that Hawke is significant, but seeing as how the SEEKER knew nearly nothing about him, why is he nessisary at all at this point? How could he possibly be important to the war if no one even truly knows who is he, where he came from, or what he's done? You truly summed it all up to perfection. 

I don't know what  Adanu was trying to get at, other than completely make an ass out of himself, but atleast through his circle logic / ad hominems, your explaination was more fleshed out. 

Modifié par BloodyMays, 08 mai 2012 - 02:52 .

[wsandista]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

My two cents here and I'll step out of the argument... if you have to argue oclver the course of multiple pages if the main character was important or even necessary, then there is possibly a deficiency in the story telling and character building in the narrative in question.

[dragonflight288]

A little off topic, but I just read the last 5 pages or so, to catch up with where this thread was at, and wanted to applaud you for thinking the story through so logically. There truly is no explaination as to why Hawke would be THE person the chantry is looking for. I think thats where people miss the point of your argument.

There's no question that Hawke is significant, but seeing as how the SEEKER knew nearly nothing about him, why is he nessisary at all at this point? How could he possibly be important to the war if no one even truly knows who is he, where he came from, or what he's done? You truly summed it all up to perfection.

I don't know what Adanu was trying to get at, other than completely make an ass out of himself, but atleast through his circle logic / ad hominems, your explaination was more fleshed out.

There are also a lot of stories about Hawke...most of them embellished by Varic and made larger than life. We even see him telling a group of people that Hawke burst down a door and proceeded to cut himself off when he noticed Hawke. Then there's the fact that legends grow in the telling.

By the time the story of Hawke reached Cassandra's ears, it was likely overly exaggerated and so full of far-fetched actions that she wanted the truth because (s)he was there, and a convenient target to blame everything on.

With all the stories, Hawke likely became a symbol beyond the Mage/Templar conflict. Hawke also was a Ferelden refugee who worked his/her way up from rags to riches in a city pretty anti-Ferelden in some cases (manifestos openly calling for removing all Fereldens) and people saying the Blight was made up because it was so short, who then repelled the Qunari (epic duel, large-scale battle, or even a peace-offering by giving Isabella over as a gift) and became Champion.

The Chantry probably wants to control any sort of symbol that gives people hope, or just listened to the exaggerated tales and made their own conclusions.

[lyleoffmyspace]

The thing is...why didn't someone make Hawke the Viscount after Act 2? Why didn't they just appoint a new Viscount? Why is the City leaderless for 3 years after Act 2? What is going on?

[esper]

lyleoffmyspace wrote...

The thing is...why didn't someone make Hawke the Viscount after Act 2? Why didn't they just appoint a new Viscount? Why is the City leaderless for 3 years after Act 2? What is going on?

Because Meridith is blocking all the selections the noble wants, and Hawke is potentianally a mage.

[lyleoffmyspace]

esper wrote...

lyleoffmyspace wrote...

The thing is...why didn't someone make Hawke the Viscount after Act 2? Why didn't they just appoint a new Viscount? Why is the City leaderless for 3 years after Act 2? What is going on?

Because Meridith is blocking all the selections the noble wants, and Hawke is potentianally a mage.

So erm we're playing a Medieval fantasy game...and the nobles are being blocked, and Meredith is acting like a crazy dictator woman, and there is this power vacuum?

Why couldn't we manouvre ourselves to fill the vacuum, to take out Meredith? Or just use our influence to appoint/become leader. We're mates with the Captain of the Guard and the bloody Champion at this point, why can't we exert our influence and choose a new leader instead of Meredith blocking all the selections for 3 YEARS. She's being an idiot. In real life there is always a new leader ready to take over in case the President/Prime Minister dies...none of this in DA2. It's ridiculous.

I can't honestly believe that the city would go 3 years without a ruler, and the Champions/Nobles/Guard would've sat around whilst some Templar chick dictacted who could not be the ruler.

[esper]

lyleoffmyspace wrote...

esper wrote...

lyleoffmyspace wrote...

The thing is...why didn't someone make Hawke the Viscount after Act 2? Why didn't they just appoint a new Viscount? Why is the City leaderless for 3 years after Act 2? What is going on?

Because Meridith is blocking all the selections the noble wants, and Hawke is potentianally a mage.

So erm we're playing a Medieval fantasy game...and the nobles are being blocked, and Meredith is acting like a crazy dictator woman, and there is this power vacuum?

Why couldn't we manouvre ourselves to fill the vacuum, to take out Meredith? Or just use our influence to appoint/become leader. We're mates with the Captain of the Guard and the bloody Champion at this point, why can't we exert our influence and choose a new leader instead of Meredith blocking all the selections for 3 YEARS. She's being an idiot. In real life there is always a new leader ready to take over in case the President/Prime Minister dies...none of this in DA2. It's ridiculous.

I can't honestly believe that the city would go 3 years without a ruler, and the Champions/Nobles/Guard would've sat around whilst some Templar chick dictacted who could not be the ruler.

meridith has the city's only army (Aveline's guards are not enough to combat the templars) and it was more and less accepted already for act 1 that you needed Meridiths approval, beyond that some of the noble supported her for religious reasons and/or fear of magic, making it impossible for the nobles who wanted her gone to do something.

There is not a power vacuum in Kirkwall there is a dictator who were there already from pre-act 1 (remember who blocked the refugees.) All the vicount death did was to make it even more visible who really ran the city and place a person in a symbolic position which ended up threathning Meridith's grib of on the nobles. (She is not happy about Hawke becoming champion, just look at her face, no matter which side in the templar/mage conflict Hawke is on.)

When Meridith dies there is a power vacuum which is why Hawke can become vicount (with the templars blessing).

[Cantina]

Well you have to understand the Knight Commander has become very powerful in Kirkwall. It is possible the Grand Cleric and the Divine stepped in as they did with the Viscount before Dumar.

On top of that, the city of Kirkwall is the Templar power in the east. They may have chosen not to appoint a Viscount in the past three years to strengthen their power due to the mage issues piling up or simply an excuse to hold their power.

Then you have to factor in the previous Viscount tried to remove the Templars. They probably are being cautious as to who should rule and Meredith may feel the only way to keep this from happening again is by taking the job herself.

[lyleoffmyspace]

DA2 should've had more politics and stuff in it. Like this. There should've been political manoeuvring, trying to oust Meredith, become Viscount yourself, get different Nobles on your side, that kind of thing, proper Game of Thrones style politics.

Then the whole Mage-Templar thing could've been going on in the background. Certain nobles could've been pro-Templar, others pro-Mage, therefore allowing Hawke to take a side in the conflict. Then it should've all come to a boil in the final few quests as the war erupts as Hawke makes his vow to be Viscount against Meredith. Would've been a proper rise to power and made Hawke more pro-active as opposed to reactive as the complaint is right now.

Modifié par lyleoffmyspace, 08 mai 2012 - 04:53 .

[Draythe]

My thoughts on Dragon Age 2's development:

http://www.gatheryou...-modernization/

Modifié par Draythe, 08 mai 2012 - 06:34 .

[bEVEsthda]

Draythe wrote...

My thoughts on Dragon Age 2's development:

http://www.gatheryou...-modernization/

I sit mute, melancholy nodding the article.

...and I even belong to the Call of Duty horde...

[wsandista]

Draythe wrote...

My thoughts on Dragon Age 2's development:

http://www.gatheryou...-modernization/

.

I remember a friend of a friend(well hes really just "that guy" if you know what i mean) who loved that action call of duty crap said he liked DA2, he said something that really bugged me. He had this dumb look of someone who spends hours mindlessly killing people with "da gunz" on his face and said "Its an RPG, (pause) a role-playing game". That is when I knew that DA2 really sucked, becuase a guy who can't play Skyrim because it is too complicated thought that DA2 was a great example of an RPG.

Pretty much sumed up by the picture at the bottom of the article.

[Cantina]

Draythe wrote...

My thoughts on Dragon Age 2's development:

http://www.gatheryou...-modernization/

That pretty much sums up my thoughts.

You know, my husband is not much of a PC/Console gamer, he prefers pen and paper. However when Dragon Age Origins came out, we were practically fighting over who gets to play-it was funny.

When we got Dragon Age 2, my husband played almost all of Act 1 and gave up. He said quote "I cannot believe they went from Origins to this sh!t" He has not bothered to play DA2 again.

[Ariella]

Accepted by whom? I didn't find it dumbed down in the least. Did some people not like it: yes, but that is neither across the board nor a legitimate consensus. Can we please stop stating opinions as fact? And yes, I liked the game, and am looking forward to what comes next.

[wsandista]

Ariella wrote...

Accepted by whom? I didn't find it dumbed down in the least. Did some people not like it: yes, but that is neither across the board nor a legitimate consensus. Can we please stop stating opinions as fact? And yes, I liked the game, and am looking forward to what comes next.

These People

And these people

Modifié par wsandista, 10 mai 2012 - 04:05 .

[slashthedragon]

lyleoffmyspace wrote...

DA2 should've had more politics and stuff in it. Like this. There should've been political manoeuvring, trying to oust Meredith, become Viscount yourself, get different Nobles on your side, that kind of thing, proper Game of Thrones style politics.

Then the whole Mage-Templar thing could've been going on in the background. Certain nobles could've been pro-Templar, others pro-Mage, therefore allowing Hawke to take a side in the conflict. Then it should've all come to a boil in the final few quests as the war erupts as Hawke makes his vow to be Viscount against Meredith. Would've been a proper rise to power and made Hawke more pro-active as opposed to reactive as the complaint is right now.

Valkyrie Profile:CotP had something similar to political manoeuvering, but it was in the background.  Also, being on the Nintendo DS it didn't play out as grandly as it could have.  In the game you could choose which prince to support while taking on the other.  Also, the House Haughn scenario was interesting; you have a family who have been warriors in each generation and the choice as to which prince they'd back was of extreme importance.
I like thigs like this

[Morroian]

Draythe wrote...

My thoughts on Dragon Age 2's development:

http://www.gatheryou...-modernization/

Hmm no offence but quite a number of things in that blog are flat out wrong.

[seraphymon]

Morroian wrote...

Draythe wrote...

My thoughts on Dragon Age 2's development:

http://www.gatheryou...-modernization/

Hmm no offence but quite a number of things in that blog are flat out wrong.

That blog was posted on another thread, and it is dead on about DA2.

[Morroian]

seraphymon wrote...

That blog was posted on another thread, and it is dead on about DA2.

3 options on the dialogue wheel: wrong
Being unable to create our own character: we couldn't in DAO either
Hawke having a pre-determined history: wrong and again he had nothing more than any of the backgrounds in DAO
Practical armor and weapon designs in DAO: wrong
Competent writing gone: wrong, the issues with the game are not in the writing.

[wsandista]

Morroian wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

That blog was posted on another thread, and it is dead on about DA2.

3 options on the dialogue wheel: wrong
Being unable to create our own character: we couldn't in DAO either
Hawke having a pre-determined history: wrong and again he had nothing more than any of the backgrounds in DAO
Practical armor and weapon designs in DAO: wrong
Competent writing gone: wrong, the issues with the game are not in the writing.

3 options on dialogue wheel, in almost every situation there are 3 choices, occasionally you get the pleasure of option 4
Being unable to create our own character: I could in DAO, the warden could be many different people. In DA2 there was only Hawke thanks to the voiced PC
Hawkes history was predetermined, the Warden could have 6 different basic backgrounds and by playing through those backgrounds, you got to build a narrative of who the Warden was, in DA2 you don't get that.
Practical equipment. Maybe not exactly practical, but DAO gear was much more realistic than DA2 gear
Competent writing gone: party members more shallow, less interactions with NPCs, plot that trainwrecks

[Jitter]

Do dumb people ever think they are dumb ?

Kinda makes the dumbed down argument hard to prove ...

Really who is going to say ... "Hell yeah i'm stupid, I couldn't pour ****** out of a boot if the instructions were written on the bottom . And i thought it was great!!! "

Modifié par Jitter, 10 mai 2012 - 06:28 .

[tankdogg937]

I like the story better than the typical "save the world" angle of DAO. You actually end up aiding and helping the chaos along instead of preventing it. A refreshing change of pace

From the mechanics aspect of it I'd agree that it went the wrong direction.

[seraphymon]

Morroian wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

That blog was posted on another thread, and it is dead on about DA2.

3 options on the dialogue wheel: wrong
Being unable to create our own character: we couldn't in DAO either
Hawke having a pre-determined history: wrong and again he had nothing more than any of the backgrounds in DAO
Practical armor and weapon designs in DAO: wrong
Competent writing gone: wrong, the issues with the game are not in the writing.

3options to the dialogue wheel is actually true. most of the convos thats all you choose, now granted your have an invesitgate, but that does not count as it does not move the conversation forward, it always comes down to red blue or green. Very few time did you actually have more, when you actually got maybe a star option, or a flirt option.

being unable to create our own character: i guess it comes down to how you interpret that, because in DAo i very well could, yes i had an origin, but i felt i was the one in control of my own character saying more accurately and making choices that i actually wanted, not be a puppet  in a story told by varric. Origin is different from history, as we already knew hawke would be the champion and do this or that, because of the narration. Almost like reading the story of a character, and not actually being the character.
Pratical  armor and weapon designs in DAO: subjective but i feel they were actually better in DAo because of the artistic design, it just felt out of place and way over the top in DA2.
Competent writing, again another subjective, and no  real right or wrong.

However the writing goes hand in hand with the story, and i felt the story in how it was excecuted was poor, too disjointed, with a horrible ending. Being rushed to write a good story i feel just wont do.

Somethings he wrote are subjective, but he is not wrong. and you can disagree and be justified in the disagreements and thats fine.