1306 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Hawke on the other hand has to earn his/her respect the hard way its not given by default and that what makes Hawke a more regular hero and then there's Hawke title granted by the Arishok basalit aan or similar given to Hawke because he earned it so its says quite alot that Hawke is respected immensely by the one person in the city that is hardest to please and cares nothing for money or social class

Except he doesn't have to earn it.  As the gaime progresses, people defer to him and treat him like a valued member of the community even if he's never expressed any interest in Kirkwall's welfare.  The Viscount calls upon his aid for no reason I can fathom.

DA2's plot progresses - and that plot requires that the people of Kirkwall respect him - without Hawke having to do anything worthy of their respect.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 04 juin 2012 - 11:30 .

[batlin]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

But you used the word "preferred." Again, preference of one game over the other is something that can be measued after a person has played both games to some capacity. It would be unfair for someone to say "I prefer DA:O to DA2" when that person has not played DA2. No research has been done. The only things that might
be accurate or applicable in that scenario could be "I preferred the DA:O trailer to DA2's" or "I prefer the box art of DA:O to DA2." In which case, a person is not really talking about the game itself - the gameplay, mechanics, characters, quests, etc. And I don't see how someone can fairly say that they prefer one thing over the other if he/she has not at least tried both.

So you're saying you think a good amount of people who bought DA:O may not have bought DA2 and vice-versa? I doubt that's the case; typically games within one series see the same customers between sequels. As far as what the preference specifically between each game is, I couldn't know, but it's fair to say that overall more people preferred DA:O assuming the majority of the customers between each game are the same.

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Batlin I may be wrong on this but what robert seems to be alluding to as the difference between The Warden and Hawke is that the Warden's respect is granted to him/her from others automatically on account that he's a Grey Warden unless of course you paranoid like Loghain and think they're working for the Orlesians to take back Ferelden.

Hawke on the other hand has to earn his/her respect the hard way its not given by default and that what makes Hawke a more regular hero and then there's Hawke title granted by the Arishok basalit aan or similar given to Hawke because he earned it so its says quite alot that Hawke is respected immensely by the one person in the city that is hardest to please and cares nothing for money or social class

I don't think he meant it had to do with respect, but even in that case the Warden too had to prove his worth in order to become a grey warden same as Hawke had to prove his worth to become the Champion (though being the Champion of a city like Kirkwall seems to carry far more respect than any single member of the grey wardens).

And another note, throughout the majority of DA:O grey wardens are hunted down as enemies of Ferelden. So I would hesitate to say that becoming a warden earned the Warden all that much respect.

Modifié par batlin, 04 juin 2012 - 11:38 .

[jbrand2002uk]

I would agree with whykikyyouwhy the only way you could present your assertion that a sales graph shows that DAO was prefered by most over DA2 would be a graph showing results of a "customer satisfaction survey" collated from every single user worldwide who bought both games and played them both to completion at least 3 times each(once per class).

Also you make the assumption that most of DA2's sales could be accounted for as sales to customers who bought and enjoyed DAO and it would be a safe bet to guess that I'm not the only one who bought DAO on release played it thoroughly and hated it threw it in the bin then bought DA2 on release absoloutley loved it and decided in hindsight to give DAO another chance.

@MissOuJ As I have DAO on a high end PC capable of running Skyrim on Ultra Settings I can honestly say DAO on the PC isn't really any better than your experience and in some cases its worse its alot more crash and freeze prone. Graphics wise even on the highest settings it really shows it age and if anything I've seen better looking games on the N64 and heck that was back in the 90's and this whole isometric camera people rave about is a gimmick at best with minimal value.

[batlin]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Also you make the assumption that most of DA2's sales could be accounted for as sales to customers who bought and enjoyed DAO and it would be a safe bet to guess that I'm not the only one who bought DAO on release played it thoroughly and hated it threw it in the bin then bought DA2 on release absoloutley loved it and decided in hindsight to give DAO another chance.

If so many people didn't like DA:O, why then does it have such a high user metascore and why would the week 1 sales for DA2 be so high? If DA:O was thought to be so bad, why would those people who didn't like it have bought DA2?

@MissOuJ As I have DAO on a high end PC capable of running Skyrim on Ultra Settings I can honestly say DAO on the PC isn't really any better than your experience and in some cases its worse its alot more crash and freeze prone. Graphics wise even on the highest settings it really shows it age and if anything I've seen better looking games on the N64 and heck that was back in the 90's and this whole isometric camera people rave about is a gimmick at best with minimal value.

Not only are you claiming that targeting on the PC is bad even though you have a mouse, but you also claim that DA:O looks like N64 graphics? Even the worst troll on these forums isn't THAT obvious.

[jbrand2002uk]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Hawke on the other hand has to earn his/her respect the hard way its not given by default and that what makes Hawke a more regular hero and then there's Hawke title granted by the Arishok basalit aan or similar given to Hawke because he earned it so its says quite alot that Hawke is respected immensely by the one person in the city that is hardest to please and cares nothing for money or social class

Except he doesn't have to earn it.  As the gaime progresses, people defer to him and treat him like a valued member of the community even if he's never expressed any interest in Kirkwall's welfare.  The Viscount calls upon his aid for no reason I can fathom.

DA2's plot progresses - and that plot requires that the people of Kirkwall respect him - without Hawke having to do anything worthy of their respect.

Actually the reason the Viscount calls for Hawkes aid is simple and quite clearly stated in the Dialogue, The Viscount had tried and failed numerous times to negotiate with the Arishok and failed part of His reasoning was due to Hawke's success at bringing back the viscount's son alive and unharmed but the main and most important reason was because and here's the punchline: The Arishok sent a letter to the Viscount asking for Hawke by name and only Hawke.This was due to Hawke eliminating that group of Tal-Vashoth a task the Arishok clearly stated he thought an outsider( i.e Non Qunari)would not be capable of therefore the Arishok began to respect Hawke as capable individual.

[eroeru]

^^
Do you hurt for expressing such a painfully subjective opinion?

Try to sugar-coat it, at least. I do my best as for DA2, and expect that to be a basis of normal discussion. Your statements, on the other hand, are flame-and-troll-bait. It's "trollish" by nature even, whatever that may exactly mean.

[jbrand2002uk]

batlin wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Also you make the assumption that most of DA2's sales could be accounted for as sales to customers who bought and enjoyed DAO and it would be a safe bet to guess that I'm not the only one who bought DAO on release played it thoroughly and hated it threw it in the bin then bought DA2 on release absoloutley loved it and decided in hindsight to give DAO another chance.

If so many people didn't like DA:O, why then does it have such a high user metascore and why would the week 1 sales for DA2 be so high? If DA:O was thought to be so bad, why would those people who didn't like it have bought DA2?

@MissOuJ As I have DAO on a high end PC capable of running Skyrim on Ultra Settings I can honestly say DAO on the PC isn't really any better than your experience and in some cases its worse its alot more crash and freeze prone. Graphics wise even on the highest settings it really shows it age and if anything I've seen better looking games on the N64 and heck that was back in the 90's and this whole isometric camera people rave about is a gimmick at best with minimal value.

Not only are you claiming that targeting on the PC is bad even though you have a mouse, but you also claim that DA:O looks like N64 graphics? Even the worst troll on these forums isn't THAT obvious.

most sensible people dont take metascore's seriously as they only account for a very small percentage of the total number of buyers and yes the graphics really are that bad however graphics are not what bugs me about DAO its the badly broken UI and the combat mechanics along with the cliched story thats been done to death and the cheap nad tacky slides you get for an ending if I were to rate it out of 10 i'd give it a 5 its ok however its far from the best RPG I've played hell Jade Empire is a more enjoyable RPG than DAO.

The cliched generic story I could overlook if the combat was any good but alas its not it slow, jerky and repetitive mods do make it more playable however a game should'nt have to depend on mods to make it fun it should be fun straight out of the box 

[MissOuJ]

batlin wrote...

I'm positive you're exaggerating. The first time I played DA:O it was on the 360 and I had minimal problems targeting enemies. You know you can always pause the action and zero-in on any character, right? Targeting, even on consoles, is a non-issue. I don;t know how you can justify your problem unless you refused to pause the acion and/or use the tactical menu.

For the love of... NO. I use tactical menu almost obsessively, even on the lower difficulties. If I hadn't figured that out I'd probably not have been able to beat the game at all. And it's not just in combat: just picking up plot items when there are several "clickables" nearby (companions, merchants etc) is problematic - I actually had problems picking up one of the poison vials in the Amaranthine Merchant's board quest because the UI wouldn't let me target one bottle which was near a merchant, a random comment spouting NPC and a couple of my companions - I entered the traiding screen about five times, heard a hundred times over how the dirty refuges were ruining Amaranthine and about 10 "Should we get a move on?" comments from Anders. I had to actually enter the tactical menu out of combat to pick up a god**** vile of poison, and even then it was really finicky. And my reflexes and hand-to-eye coordination can't be that bad - I'm over halfway through Outland, for crying out loud.

I don't know if this is just Sony/PS3 issue or if I just have really, really bad luck and the patches have installed themselves incorrectly or there's something wrong with the disk or something, but that's just how my DA:O experience is/was/is probably going to be in the future. Sucks to be me. And even if the targeting worked perfectly I'd still find DA:O combat too slow for my tastes.

batlin wrote...
That's fine, and I agree that you shouldn't have to settle for less (even though consoles are effectively 8 year-old PCs) just because you don't have a PC

How nice to have your approval

batlin wrote...
however my POINT is that, given the reason you claim you prefer DA2 over DA:O, you would prefer the PC version of DA:O way more than you do any version of DA2.

Impossible to know: haven't tried it on PC - and I probably won't in the near future. Still, I know I enjoy DA2 combat more: I enjoy the visuals of the fights, the speed, the energy, and frankly find DA:O combat tedious in comparison. I play DA:O in spite of the combat mechanics - it's something I try to actively get past while I'm playing, because I enjoy the Dragon Age universe so much. In DA2 I actively seek out fights because Mark of Death/Death Hex + Brittle + upgraded Archer's Lance never, ever stops being awesome. In DA2 I love messing around with the builds, trying to find new party builds to try out and bid against the next gang boss who tries to ambush me - I can't see how traiding away something I really like for better graphics and fluent UI which shouldn't be a problem in the first place is gonna make me like DA:O more.

batlin wrote...

You blatantly ignored all my points against your assertion for why DA2's plot is better than DA:O's. If you want to keep arguing that, refer back to my last post about those.

You say that like it's an objective, quantifiable truth. Newsflash - it isn't. I am bored with the classical hero's journey style power fantasy protagonists - you might not be. I actually like the way Hawke is presented and how his/her story unfolds: the whole Kirkwall incident is the metaphorical perfect storm and s/he is the eye of the hurricane. I don't mind the railroading in DA2, just like I don't really mind it in DA:O either. If I did, I'd be playing Skyrim (or not, apparently its PS3 port had some serious technical issues as well). I love how the personal tragedies Hawke goes through shape him/her (in my mind if not directly in the game world - roleplaying here), how the slow boil finally comes to head and how it all plays out in the end. Playing DA2 is a bit like watching a game of Jenga: the situation starts to crumble, one block at the time, until it all comes crashing down. I find it absolutely facinating in an "how do the puzzle pieces fit" kind of way. It's an absolutely subjective opinnion, but that doesn't make it wrong or any less true or valid than yours.

It's meant to prove exactly one thing: Most people preferred DA:O over DA2. And unless you or anyone can prove otherwise, as a metric of whether DA2 went the right direction, it shows that it did not.

I know many people have actually said this already, but sales only indicate how many individual copies were sold. I'd imagine used sales, for example, aren't included. Second, the graph cannot in any way, shape or form include the amount of people who bought DA:O but didn't like it and so didn't buy DA2. The best you can get out of this metric data of yours regarding to which people prefered more, DA:O or DA2, is speculation. You also make baseless assumptions, such as that all people have played both games all the way through to even make that judgement, or that all people who played DA2 also played DA:O and vice versa.

But if you ask "did the most vocal majority prefer DA:O to DA2" then you might be right, but even then we'd run into the 90-9-1 problem.

Anyway, there's really no point arguing about this, because I have my very subjective experiences regarding both of these games and no matter how hard you try to "convince" me with "objective evidence" that DA:O is the better game won't really change anyhing, because it comes down to the emotions I felt when stuff went down in DA2, which were far more powerful than anything that happened in DA:O made me feel. The end.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 05 juin 2012 - 12:13 .

[jbrand2002uk]

eroeru wrote...

^^
Do you hurt for expressing such a painfully subjective opinion?

Try to sugar-coat it, at least. I do my best as for DA2, and expect that to be a basis of normal discussion. Your statements, on the other hand, are flame-and-troll-bait. It's "trollish" by nature even, whatever that may exactly mean.

if an opinion is sugar coated its not an opinion its a lie and lies are Baaaaaaaaaaad what is important about an opinion is honesty now if people to to call people who are honest with their opinions flamers and trolls well thats their problem since last time i checked we have this little privellage called freedom of speech or have we become a communist state overnight

[batlin]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

most sensible people dont take metascore's seriously as they only account for a very small percentage of the total number of buyers

Protip: most surveys don't actually take a majority consensus into account . The fact that DA:O's user metascore is 8/10 while DA2's is 4/10 is very telling. Even the professional critic reviews, rife with people who inist on giving out good scores no matter what in order to stay on publishers' good sides, rank DA2 10 points less overall than DA:O. Also there's the matter of how DA2 actually outsold DA:O to begin with, but then fell like a rock afterward. This is a good indicator that the majority of people who bought it initially were not happy with what they got.

and yes the graphics really are that bad however graphics are not what bugs me about DAO its the badly broken UI and the combat mechanics

What precisely about the PC's UI is so bad? Please, I must know.

along with the cliched story thats been done to death

Yeah, right? I mean the hero's journey story has been done to death almost as much as the rags-to-riches story has!

Modifié par batlin, 05 juin 2012 - 12:08 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

MissOuJ wrote...

I know I enjoy DA2 combat more: I enjoy the visuals of the fights, the speed, the energy, and frankly find DA:O combat tedious in comparison. I play DA:O in spite of the combat mechanics - it's something I try to actively get past while I'm playing, because I enjoy the Dragon Age universe so much.

That's how I responded to DA2's combat.  It was a chore to play, it was entirely unfun, and ultimately that's what stopped me from playing the game any more.

I have some ideas about how to play DA2 so that it would be fun from a roleplaying perspective, but the combat gameplay is so unpleasant that I just can't bring myself to do it.

[Anomaly-]

jbrand2002uk wrote...
@MissOuJ As I have DAO on a high end PC capable of running Skyrim on Ultra Settings I can honestly say DAO on the PC isn't really any better than your experience and in some cases its worse its alot more crash and freeze prone.

I've seen you state this as a fact numerous times, and it never ceases to annoy me. In order to complete DA2, I had to use the console to kill any enemy blood mages in my vicinity, because one of their skills would cause me to crash every single time. DA:O crashed on me once, and it was mostly my fault for having way too many things running in the background.

Graphics wise even on the highest settings it really shows it age and if anything I've seen better looking games on the N64 and heck that was back in the 90's and this whole isometric camera people rave about is a gimmick at best with minimal value.

You really have to be joking. I've made the N64 comparison numerous times, but in relation to DA2. Just look at the ears in DA2. Then look at ears and other similar features in N64 games. The resemblance is uncanny. The only environment that even approaches DA:O's environments for aesthetic (to say nothing of much worsened rail-roading) is the wounded coast. Also, the isometric camera is far from a gimmick.

[robertthebard]

batlin wrote...

Interesting how you can't answer a simple question, eh? And how you continue to ignore my points? But fine, take your ball and go home.

Ultimately the Warden and Hawke's stories are the same. The only difference is that while the Warden is proactively solving problems, Hawke sits around for years until they explode.

Let's take a look at your "points" shall we? Let's start here:

batlin wrote...

I mean, selling half as many copies in the first 10 weeks as DA:O is pretty telling. And half of those copies were bought in only the first week, likely due to fans of DA:O not knowing what they were getting. Yeah, there are those that prefer DA2 over DA:O but it's pretty obvious these people are in the minority.

Last I heard, Bioware is getting inspiration from Skyrim for DA3. Has there been any other news of what they'll do with it? Because taking pages out of Bethesda's book would definitely be a good thing for DA.

Lower sales may indeed be telling, but when reasons for lower sales are requested, what do you respond with?  Oh yeah, stuff like this, which people that didn't buy the game didn't see, couldn't see, since they came from different games, of course, your position is that the lower detailed pic is better, right?

batlin wrote...

Hurlocks in DA:O:



Hurlocks in DA2



lol yeah, WAAAAY better colors and lighting....

I guess my response, instead of being diplomatic about your choices here should have been:  Do you need to borrow my glasses, so that you can see the examples you provided here sucked to "prove your point".  The reason half your posts get ignored by me is that you didn't have a point.

"People didn't buy the game because people didn't like it.  Of course, when provided with reasons why people that have never played the game, and so can't know if they like it or not may not have bought it, you replied with this gem:

batlin wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I didn't buy it in the first week because I made the mistake of reading the forums first. It's a mistake because I should already know from MMO experience that the most vocal people on the forums are generally the ones that don't like it, and the ones that do, that may indeed use the forums are generally busy playing it. Lesson learned, or maybe relearned. Having purchased the game, and DLC, I can't say I'm disappointed with it.

Thank you hater community for making me miss out on a year and change of fun.

This is a horrible misconception that needs to die. No, the people who hate the game are NOT always the most vocal. Want me to prove it? Look at the DA:O board. Compared to DA2, how many topics are there about how much DA:O is bad? Few, if any. If you remember that board when DA:O came out, I saw nothing but praise for it. Same with Mass Effect. By the way, the only complaint you will ever see about Mass Effect 3 is the ending. People do not complain about games for no reason, and people who come to the boards do not do so only to complain.

So your point here is that, put quite simply, the only reason people didn't like the game is just because?  You do allude to bad press being the reason, but vehemently deny one source of bad press.  Again, you have no point, it's either agree with you, or tolerate walls of text with things like this to support "People didn't like it, for no apparent reason, other than stuff in game they couldn't have seen:

batlin wrote...

Ok, so we're just going to ignore our debates about the lack of an antagonist in DA2 until late in the game and how in Awakenings you learn about the antagonist early on as well, how DA:O does not always give you an out, how Hawke is forced into inaction in situations that are obviously going to turn out for the worst, how All That Remains has next to nothing to do with the mages vs. templars, how there's little buildup to act 3, how even though the Archdemon metaplot in DA:O is constant there is no shortage of subplots within the world that are no less deep than acts 1 or 2 in DA2, how Hawke just sits around for 6 years while a very obvious tyrannical ruler is tightening her grip on the city, how elves are NOT considered second-class citizens "just because", and how the Warden has no less personal investment in mage oppression than Hawke would? Are we pretending how that your point this whole time that it's all subjective for whether DA2 went the wrong direction? Ok, I'll play.

Here's the sales numbers for DA:O vs. DA2



DA2 went the wrong direction. The same fanbase buying less of one than another does, in fact, prove that less people liked it than the original. So tell me: What evidence do you have to prove that it IS subjective other than your say so?

I really love this strawman.  A website that set out to prove a point, proved it, and of course my response to this graph got the brush off, since the logic was too much for the "they didn't buy it because they didn't like it" arguement.  Now, bring something to the table that shows where potential customers said the reason they didn't buy it was because they didn't like it as opposed to they didn't like what they were reading in whatever mediums, which would include these forums, and then we have a basis to discuss from.  So far, sales numbers meaning people that never played the game didn't like it is debunked by the simple fact that I didn't buy it until a few weeks ago, and I didn't buy because of bad press, and I regret the decision.  Now, unless you're going to tell me that I don't know what I do or don't like, you really have no point to respond to.  I really hope this is clear.

I'm not leaving this thread because you won an arguement on the internet.  I'm leaving this thread because you don't have any points to discuss.  It's not like you didn't buy the game, you did.  After buying it, and at least loading it, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt there, you didn't like it.  More power to you, I don't care what you do or do not like.  As I have said, repeatedly on these forums, and possibly even in this thread, too lazy to go look, this is not an MMO, and I don't have to worry about whether there's room for you on my ingame block list to keep from reading your constant whinging about the game.  If you are unhappy, go away.  It's far easier on everybody, instead of starting obvious, successful I might add, troll posts.

Damn quote tags...

Modifié par robertthebard, 05 juin 2012 - 12:19 .

[jbrand2002uk]

Well here the flaw in your logic of sales figures being used as an indicator of quality.What game franchise has held the most records for number of units sold? Yep you guessed right its Call of Duty so that must mean COD games are the best videogames in the world right? and Guess what many would actually disagree with statments like COD is for braindead nut scratchers etc.the only chart that could come close would be one charting sales of DA2 and DAO post DA2's release but again all that shows is number of units sold its not and indicator of quality unless you had a chart showing number of returns/ sales of used copies from games stores/online shops.

As I said the clichced story wouldnt matter if the combat was good enough to compensate for it but its not.

The problem with the PC's UI is it clearly wasnt designed with a PC user in mind its clearly a console based UI bodged to work on a PC however DA2 is also guilty of this but it works somewhat better though the improvement is marginal at best in short the game was designed to run on a console with their limited abilities due to console technology being at least one generation behind a average budget PC and several generations behind a mid range/high end games PC I could go into technical reasons however I'd like to avoid a wall of text

[Sacred_Fantasy]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
The only things that might be accurate or applicable in that scenario could be "I preferred the DA:O trailer to DA2's" or "I prefer the box art of DA:O to DA2." In which case, a person is not really talking about the game itself - the gameplay, mechanics, characters, quests, etc. And I don't see how someone can fairly say that they prefer one thing over the other if he/she has not at least tried both.

1 million downloaded demo version of DA 2  ( or  50 % of DA 2's sales ) before release show that a good number of people did indeed at least tried both. 

[WardenWade]

Faerunner wrote...

vallore wrote...



Well, I would be surprised if an elven rebellion did not play a major role in a future game, with Dalish and City-elves marching under one banner; I just would not expect it for the next game. Besides, an elven rebellion deserves the spotlight when it finally happens, without having to share it with another major event, so I’m in no hurry.

Heh, on some level I do agree with you, and I can see where you're coming from, but to be honest I find it hard to believe that city elves at the very least aren't getting involved with this conflict. Even if they don't start a rebellion of their own, I would find it extremely unrealistic for elves not to join the upcoming civil wars along with everyone else. Mages and elves are both suppressed by non-magic humans, and many mages are elves.
 Now that the mages are rebelling, I don't see why elves wouldn't join in or at least start realizing that the status quo is not eternal; that since other minorities aren't putting up with oppression anymore, then they shouldn't have to either. If the next gave doesn't include city elves at the very least starting to sow the seeds of rebellion worldwide, or start building up tension that'll realistically depict a rebellion in future games (the way DA2 built up the mage tension) then I'll lose a lot of faith in the Bioware writting team.
 I agree that I want Bioware to take their time and give the elven rebellion the time and attention that it deserves, but at the same time I don't feel that they should dedicate a 40hr game to one simple bipartisan conflict at a time (like DA2) and I don't want to wait fifty years for them to decide that elves are finally important enough to start acknowledging, never mind focus on. DAO included many conflicts that made for an interesting, flavourful game. Even  if  they never make a game like that again, I would still like future games to include more variety than "x vs. x" and I would like for them to start including  elves too. ,

These are good points!   For my part, in general it has always struck me as noteworthy that

<SPOILERS>

Anders will comment in ambient dialogue if you take him to the alienage that the elves should join the mages in rebellion as they too suffer, yet this is never built on that I am aware of.  Furthermore, in Act II we see numerous city elves fighting alongside the qunari during the invasion, yet no further information is ever given as to the city elves' feelings on it beyond the opinions of the two viddethari (which IMO is, poignantly, the Tabris origin all over again) and the elven zealot.  And in Act III IIRC there is no word of the revolt's effects, if any, in Kirkwall at large.  It is IMO too easy to simply say that city elves in particular are relatively happy in their lot and don't wish to buck their circumstances when we have this evidence, in addition to the elven uprising in DA:O, that not all are content.

<END SPOILERS>

It would be interesting to see an elven rebellion in a future game, as you both mention, and I agree if it ever comes to pass it deserves a great deal of attention and time to develop properly.  As does the mage situation, and as would a casteless revolt should that ever come to pass as well.  The city elves could be an interesting fifth column in a pan-elven rebellion, or even one led from the alienages themselves.  To that end I gather communication between alienages is probably sketchy but possible, as Cyrion sends a matchmaker to Highever in the Tabris origin, and though weapons and training are an issue in the city the elves under Shartan and Andraste rebelled with little more than, essentially, determination, broken bottles and boards with nails in them.   

Should such a thing be successful, it would be depressing yet intriguing to see whether the elves--ruling themselves again--would revert to a similar social stratification as in human societies (ie, city elves might return to servitude for fellow elves and Dalish might conceivably return to their noble roots as rulers) or work to bring everyone together.

Faerunner, I agree that the elves in their own right have a connection to the current conflict due to their possibility, it seems, for a higher number of mage children.  Likewise, there is their aforementioned mysterious affinity for magic waiting to be explored...I would love to learn more about that myself.

I would like elves to have the same consideration as mages, as well...and dwarves, kossith and so on.  This is one of the many reasons I personally continue to support full race options in future DA games, incidentally...these momentous times are IMO best experienced as different kinds of peoples and races, with their unique perspectives in each situation.

Modifié par WardenWade, 05 juin 2012 - 01:58 .

[eroeru]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

eroeru wrote...

^^
Do you hurt for expressing such a painfully subjective opinion?

Try to sugar-coat it, at least. I do my best as for DA2, and expect that to be a basis of normal discussion. Your statements, on the other hand, are flame-and-troll-bait. It's "trollish" by nature even, whatever that may exactly mean.

if an opinion is sugar coated its not an opinion its a lie and lies are Baaaaaaaaaaad what is important about an opinion is honesty now if people to to call people who are honest with their opinions flamers and trolls well thats their problem since last time i checked we have this little privellage called freedom of speech or have we become a communist state overnight

Who's "we"?

Anyway, disrespectful and annoying conversation may be allowed by law, as law has more important functions to uphold, but this "flame-bait" may very easily be not respected among peers. They have every right to report you to admins, who have the right to remove your comment or ban you. Though in this case, I wouldn't. : )

Your opinion will be respected more, that's all. And making an opinion sound less radical will not defer from honesty. Voila - "I radically dislike DA2 and the values it upholds". Not "the game is crap to throw in the garbage can, everybody with a normal mind can see it".

[pmac_tk421]

I really enjoyed DA2 and I truly felt that it was better than DAO. Moving past my issues with the gameplay/level design in DAO(I stopped playing my second playthrough when I reached the fade) I really felt that DA2 had a more interesting plot. In DAO, it was simple you get screwed, go and save the day plot, whereas in DA2, things were more complex. Everyone met by happenstance due to the fact that their world is slowing deteriorating due to uncontrable elements of society, and everyone is angry due to their inability to change things, but in end they chose to fight to alter the way things are and generally change the fate of the world and end up provoking greater consequences that eventually leave their control.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

I would agree with whykikyyouwhy the only way you could present your assertion that a sales graph shows that DAO was prefered by most over DA2 would be a graph showing results of a "customer satisfaction survey" collated from every single user worldwide who bought both games and played them both to completion at least 3 times each(once per class).

Also you make the assumption that most of DA2's sales could be accounted for as sales to customers who bought and enjoyed DAO and it would be a safe bet to guess that I'm not the only one who bought DAO on release played it thoroughly and hated it threw it in the bin then bought DA2 on release absoloutley loved it and decided in hindsight to give DAO another chance.

You don't have to. Mark Darrah comment on DA 2 ultimate edition is sufficient to inform you a lot of things. "At the moment, no retailers is interested to take it. " In other word, there is no demand for DA 2 ultimate edition. An issue that doesn't occur for BioWare other top selling titles like DAO and ME 2.  

jbrand2002uk wrote...

@MissOuJ As I have DAO on a high end PC capable of running Skyrim on Ultra Settings I can honestly say DAO on the PC isn't really any better than your experience and in some cases its worse its alot more crash and freeze prone. Graphics wise even on the highest settings it really shows it age and if anything I've seen better looking games on the N64 and heck that was back in the 90's and this whole isometric camera people rave about is a gimmick at best with minimal value.

I play on Intel duo core 2.0 GHZ 2GB DDR 2 RAM PC. The only reason DAO crash in my playthrough is due to MOD. Other than that, I just hate DAO's slow loading time. Therefore, I have no idea how on earth your high end pc could be such a nuance.  

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 05 juin 2012 - 12:52 .

[jbrand2002uk]

eroeru wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

eroeru wrote...

^^
Do you hurt for expressing such a painfully subjective opinion?

Try to sugar-coat it, at least. I do my best as for DA2, and expect that to be a basis of normal discussion. Your statements, on the other hand, are flame-and-troll-bait. It's "trollish" by nature even, whatever that may exactly mean.

if an opinion is sugar coated its not an opinion its a lie and lies are Baaaaaaaaaaad what is important about an opinion is honesty now if people to to call people who are honest with their opinions flamers and trolls well thats their problem since last time i checked we have this little privellage called freedom of speech or have we become a communist state overnight

Who's "we"?

Anyway, disrespectful and annoying conversation may be allowed by law, as law has more important functions to uphold, but this "flame-bait" may very easily be not respected among peers. They have every right to report you to admins, who have the right to remove your comment or ban you. Though in this case, I wouldn't. : )

Your opinion will be respected more, that's all. And making an opinion sound less radical will not defer from honesty. Voila - "I radically dislike DA2 and the values it upholds". Not "the game is crap to throw in the garbage can, everybody with a normal mind can see it".

Heres my post to which you originally responded:

I would agree with whykikyyouwhy the only way you could present your assertion that a sales graph shows that DAO was prefered by most over DA2 would be a graph showing results of a "customer satisfaction survey" collated from every single user worldwide who bought both games and played them both to completion at least 3 times each(once per class).

Also you make the assumption that most of DA2's sales could be accounted for as sales to customers who bought and enjoyed DAO and it would be a safe bet to guess that I'm not the only one who bought DAO on release played it thoroughly and hated it threw it in the bin then bought DA2 on release absoloutley loved it and decided in hindsight to give DAO another chance.

@MissOuJ As I have DAO on a high end PC capable of running Skyrim on Ultra Settings I can honestly say DAO on the PC isn't really any better than your experience and in some cases its worse its alot more crash and freeze prone. Graphics wise even on the highest settings it really shows it age and if anything I've seen better looking games on the N64 and heck that was back in the 90's and this whole isometric camera people rave about is a gimmick at best with minimal value. 

evrything expressed here was a personal opinion based on my personal experiance with the game nowhere in this statement is it claimed that it is an absoloute truth or that others are blind if they disagree.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

MissOuJ wrote...
I know many people have actually said this already, but sales only indicate how many individual copies were sold.

Yes. It indicates how long a game can survive. Regardless of one's preference, poor sales = game dies. It's not subjective.. It's a fact. If you want to play the franchise again, you need to pay attention to it's sale figure. Because poor sale = poor demand = no more franchise. And that's what trouble most people who love DA franchise. 

Edit: DAO is the one of best BioWare selling title up-to-date. http://www.ea.com/ne...-platinum-sales
The formula is already there. The only thing remain is, the question whether you want to do it again or not.  

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 05 juin 2012 - 01:22 .

[wsandista]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

eroeru wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

eroeru wrote...

^^
Do you hurt for expressing such a painfully subjective opinion?

Try to sugar-coat it, at least. I do my best as for DA2, and expect that to be a basis of normal discussion. Your statements, on the other hand, are flame-and-troll-bait. It's "trollish" by nature even, whatever that may exactly mean.

if an opinion is sugar coated its not an opinion its a lie and lies are Baaaaaaaaaaad what is important about an opinion is honesty now if people to to call people who are honest with their opinions flamers and trolls well thats their problem since last time i checked we have this little privellage called freedom of speech or have we become a communist state overnight

Who's "we"?

Anyway, disrespectful and annoying conversation may be allowed by law, as law has more important functions to uphold, but this "flame-bait" may very easily be not respected among peers. They have every right to report you to admins, who have the right to remove your comment or ban you. Though in this case, I wouldn't. : )

Your opinion will be respected more, that's all. And making an opinion sound less radical will not defer from honesty. Voila - "I radically dislike DA2 and the values it upholds". Not "the game is crap to throw in the garbage can, everybody with a normal mind can see it".

Heres my post to which you originally responded:

I would agree with whykikyyouwhy the only way you could present your assertion that a sales graph shows that DAO was prefered by most over DA2 would be a graph showing results of a "customer satisfaction survey" collated from every single user worldwide who bought both games and played them both to completion at least 3 times each(once per class).

Also you make the assumption that most of DA2's sales could be accounted for as sales to customers who bought and enjoyed DAO and it would be a safe bet to guess that I'm not the only one who bought DAO on release played it thoroughly and hated it threw it in the bin then bought DA2 on release absoloutley loved it and decided in hindsight to give DAO another chance.

@MissOuJ As I have DAO on a high end PC capable of running Skyrim on Ultra Settings I can honestly say DAO on the PC isn't really any better than your experience and in some cases its worse its alot more crash and freeze prone. Graphics wise even on the highest settings it really shows it age and if anything I've seen better looking games on the N64 and heck that was back in the 90's and this whole isometric camera people rave about is a gimmick at best with minimal value. 

evrything expressed here was a personal opinion based on my personal experiance with the game nowhere in this statement is it claimed that it is an absoloute truth or that others are blind if they disagree.

Didn't you once say that anyone who liked DAO needs to see a shrink? That seems to be a bit condescending to those who believe that DA2 was the inferior game.

@eroeru
I wouldn't try to reason with this person, aside from his horrid gramar, he really can't accept any evidence that DA2 preformed worse than DAO, whether it be in the marketplace or with critics.

[wsandista]

Filament wrote...

wsandista wrote...
he really can't accept any evidence that DA2 preformed worse than DAO, whether it be in the marketplace or with critics.

If only that was the only assumption being made about the numbers given.

What do you infer about the lower sales and worse critical reception then?
There has to be some explanation for DA2 preforming worse than DAO.

[LinksOcarina]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...
I know many people have actually said this already, but sales only indicate how many individual copies were sold.

Yes. It indicates how long a game can survive. Regardless of one's preference, poor sales = game dies. It's not subjective.. It's a fact. If you want to play the franchise again, you need to pay attention to it's sale figure. Because poor sale = poor demand = no more franchise. And that's what trouble most people who love DA franchise. 

Edit: DAO is the one of best BioWare selling title up-to-date. http://www.ea.com/ne...-platinum-sales
The formula is already there. The only thing remain is, the question whether you want to do it again or not.  

Well now here is a question then. Did anyone here play A Game of Thrones by Cyanide Studios?

The reason I ask is because the combat and RPG mechanics are a throwback of sorts to that type of game Origns was. But, the game is not that good. 

So, is it really a winning formula, or is Dragon Age just an exception to the rule regarding its mechanics, which, like it or not, are fairly archaic by modern standards? That, if you ask me, is a more important question.

Also, regardless of sales in this case, Dragon Age is not going anywhere. This is a multimedia franchise now, not just a game series. Even if the sales tank, the games will still come out, like Final Fantasy. So again, it becomes an exception to the rule because the comics, the novels, hell the anime, are all proof of its own success.