1306 réponses à ce sujet

[T764]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Over-the-top combat was the wrong direction. Also unrealistic weapons that belong in FFXIII.

Fix this for the next game.

edit::  I should add that the archer and mage use of their weapons in combat was a good addition.

That's funny i don't remember seeing combat gloves, spears, boomerangs, guns or gunswords in Dragon Age and since that's five of the six FFXIII party members covered, i think you're talking out of your arse.

Of course nothing comes close to the realism of the DAO saw sword, the great maul, the giant axes, the cricket bat longswords or the lady armours with the saucepan boob protectors, leaping six feet vertically while in full plate, magical size adjusting armour, combat animations that look like geriatrics fighting underwater, characters who are too dumb to walk around small rocks, watching "trained" soldiers stabbing people in the belly with maces, Qunari with greatswords fighting in the same style as Dwarves with axes, the complete lack of spears and i shouldn't  forget old an old lady that can transform into a bloody dragon.

And that's before we talk about a world filled with idiots and lazy bastards all so that you can have control in an empowerment fantasy. Realism and Dragon age don't mix.

[Jerrybnsn]

T764 wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Over-the-top combat was the wrong direction. Also unrealistic weapons that belong in FFXIII.

Fix this for the next game.

edit::  I should add that the archer and mage use of their weapons in combat was a good addition.

That's funny i don't remember seeing combat gloves, spears, boomerangs, guns or gunswords in Dragon Age and since that's five of the six FFXIII party members covered, i think you're talking out of your arse.

http://t0.gstatic.co...QIqKDHTYXfpM98c


hmmmmmm

[eroeru]

Though I really like Japanese games, I've got to say as Dragon Age represented the Western RPG at its purest and greatest, I cannot fathom why the idea to "mix it up" (uggh... blagh!) got into the heads of Laidlaw and co.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

@T764: Don't be disingenuous.

@R0vena: Difficulty settings, mang.

@Fast Jimmy: Niiice.

Let's add this to it: I want combat to be an option when solving problems, not the option. I want the ways for players to interact with the game and systems to be greatly enhanced. Basically, open gameplay that allows for multiple solutions to problems based on character build or story choices.

Not in the sense of discrete and mutually exclusive (linear) pathways (MotA) but through more naturalist means that are based on interaction, mechanics, level design and/or lateral thinking.

Silence as a stealth tactic, interactive environments and traps to actually trap (not just damage) enemies in a single location, factional systems that determine how NPCs feel about you (possibility for disguises and unique events i.e guards wailing on 1 party member but leaving everyone else alone), splitting up the party to take different pathways in levels, leaving a single party member as a sacrifice to let everyone else progress, etc.

It would encourage more tactical thinking without overloading players with numbers and would just lead to more interesting encounters without spending the time and resources to specifically script them.

The mix of story elements and pure game mechanics at work is far better than any cinematic in giving the player a story tailored to them. Pissing into the wind, I know, but it'd be something nice to think about.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 11 juin 2012 - 03:54 .

[Fast Jimmy]

R0vena wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

What I'd love to see in future DA games is no rapid-recharge mana, no auto-heal health and, to top it off, a form of roaming or respawning enemies, so the swath of enemies you cut a line through in a dungeon doesn't always stay an open road of escape. You should be capable of beating your average fight without fear of death, but FEAR fighting over the long term, as the damage and wounds collected can weaken you and leave you trapped.

But I'm the kind of guy who likes to lose, because I know then that true victory will seem that much sweeter.

oh, no.... I don't play Bioware games for challenge in fighting. Less hack&slash, more story, please...

Strategic, well-thought out, resource-limited combat is the exact OPPOSITE of hack n' slash combat. 

How can story stand on its own merit when the gameplay of the combat allows you to slaughter countless enemies who get in your way without breaking a sweat?

[T764]

@ Jerrybnsn, Pedantic but that's FFXII hence the reason i picked it out, FFXIII's Sci-fi and doesn't feature any oversized weapons (that i recall) .

@CrustyBot, I meant everything i said, DAO is unrealistic and ridiculous but people accept it because of some notion of brown and slow = dark and realistic and because they want to be a big fish in a little pond, they want to make important decisions that affect the world, realistic or not.

It still staggers me that video game fans appear to be a bunch of ignorant pop-culture educated morons who have no idea of influences outside of Asia. I was playing Warhammer, giant weapons and over the top well before i had ever played a jrpg or watched anime, but oversized weapons = FINAL FANTASY and this on a site that had a banner for a Warhammer game.

I have read books with things like this...
" A terrifying ungentle man was Ingcel: he had a single eye in his head that was as broad as an oxhide and as black as a beetle, and there were three pupils in it."

"Clamorous, sweated, hard-bodied, fierce dealing mighty blows that can slay nine hundred in battle.... A glittering red spear he had, fitted to his grip and resting on a powerful shaft; it extended from the floor to the cieling, Its iron point was dark and dripping....A full thirty feet from the dark point of his death-dealing sword to its iron hilt, and it emitted fiery sparks that lit up the house's mead circuit from floor to roof."

"So he went on shore; and it is the way he was, with a strong iron flail in his hand having seven balls of pure iron on it, and fifty iron chains, and fifty apples on each chain, and fifty deadly thorns on every apple. And he made a rush through the Fianna to break them up entirely and to tear them into strings, and they gave way before him."

"Then they raised Balor's eyelid, but Lugh made a cast of his red spear at him, that brought the eye through the back of his head, so that it was towards his own army it fell, and three times nine of the Fomor died when they looked at it. And if Lugh had not put out that eye when he did, the whole of Ireland would have been burned in one flash."

I have read stories of Cuchulain a man who's "body contorted itself horribly, blood spurted from his head in a great rush", of a knife that when used upon a bare bone cuts of the best meat would appear, a dog that would spew any type of liquid, four people cursed to live as swans for 900 years transformed with the touch of a druid's stick.
And that's a minor memorable selection from the stories of the Red branch of Ulster, the Tuatha De Danaan and the Fianna of Ireland.

It is impossible for some people to accept that something can be OTT and not be Asian, but you know, if it's before Tolkien or D&D or A song of fire and ice or the Witcher it doesn't exist.
That's mostly what my complaint is about, not about the dislike of OTT or oversized stuff but that it is always Asian influences and cannot be any thing else, it really, really pisses me off.

[R0vena]

Crusty Boot:

CrustyBot wrote...
@R0vena: Difficulty settings, mang.

Difficulty is no problem, I play on NM just fine.

Fast Jimmy,

The proposed system means - in my opinion - a lot of reloads to get out of the battles with minimum injuries and other losses (potions would be rather important, for example)  or/and spending a lot of time on strategizing the fights way ahead because otherwise you can face severe consequenses, and not even in a boss fight - just because you made a mistake early on. I understang that some players would enjoy it, but for me personally it is as far from fun as possible. 
Hack&Slash in my opinion is any game that pays attention to combat more than story and characters. No matter how strategic the combat is.

Edit: no, effortless slaying of some enemies doesn't bother me. Not every fight should be to the death, and the hero of the story is generally way above average in fighting skills. No problem here.

Modifié par R0vena, 11 juin 2012 - 06:53 .

[Fast Jimmy]

R0vena wrote...

Crusty Boot:

CrustyBot wrote...
@R0vena: Difficulty settings, mang.

Difficulty is no problem, I play on NM just fine.

Fast Jimmy,

The proposed system means - in my opinion - a lot of reloads to get out of the battles with minimum injuries and other losses (potions would be rather important, for example)  or/and spending a lot of time on strategizing the fights way ahead because otherwise you can face severe consequenses, and not even in a boss fight - just because you made a mistake early on. I understang that some players would enjoy it, but for me personally it is as far from fun as possible. 
Hack&Slash in my opinion is any game that pays attention to combat more than story and characters. No matter how strategic the combat is.

Edit: no, effortless slaying of some enemies doesn't bother me. Not every fight should be to the death, and the hero of the story is generally way above average in fighting skills. No problem here.

I would be all for having lots of ways around combat, too, if I was truly getting a Christmas List of game design.

For instance, I'd like a skill as a mage to scry ahead and see where enemies are and possibly take alternate routes. Or a sneak option that will let me scout ahead of my party (or have one of my NPCs do it for me) so I could do a similar side-step of combat. Or a speech skill that could get me lots of supplies before heading out... or even convince a small group of soldiers or mercernaries to go ahead of me in a dungeon and clean out some of the enemies, or protect my exit so I can run out and not worry about getting flanked. This would require somewhat randomized enemy positions, so you couldn't just memorize where the enemies were the first time and skirt combat every time after.

The problem with the DA series is that combat is a must, and it is done all of the time. Instead of having varied ways to play the game, you have only one - button mash and slay all enemies until you get to the next conversation point. At least if combat required you to be a little more strategic, it would be more engrossing instead of just mindless button mashing until you can talk again.

[R0vena]

Fast Jimmy,

well, possibilities to avoid combat via stealth or diplomacy would be great, no arguments here. I would love them, too.

But exactly because fights are mostly unavoidable I would prefer to be done with them quickly to get to the good part - story, not prolong them. Battles for me are fun and I don't mostly mind them, but it is an entertainment on the side, not nearly as important as other parts of the game.
I see your point, however. But the problem I see in it will be that right now we have a system in which if the hero does badly in the fight we need to reload that particular fight. Well, maybe run to merchant/camp and change some equipment and get some extra potions, but let's face it - it is a rare case. But with absence of regenerating and strict limitation of resources if we do badly it could mean we need to reload not only that fight. Maybe not even the previous one - but possibly several hours of gameplay. I don't see it as much of fun, personally.

I am not sure about the "mindless button-smashing". At least on NM both DAO and DA 2 fights required from me to pay a very close attention to what I was doing (DA 2 more, actually) and certain degree of thinking ahead, too. Boss battles, especially.

Modifié par R0vena, 11 juin 2012 - 08:45 .

[Jerrybnsn]

T764 wrote...

@ Jerrybnsn, Pedantic but that's FFXII hence the reason i picked it out, FFXIII's Sci-fi and doesn't feature any oversized weapons (that i recall) .

Is this the FFXIII you were talking about?

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 11 juin 2012 - 08:30 .

[LinksOcarina]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

T764 wrote...

@ Jerrybnsn, Pedantic but that's FFXII hence the reason i picked it out, FFXIII's Sci-fi and doesn't feature any oversized weapons (that i recall) .

I don't be rude, but who gives a damn about this?

[T764]

If you look in the corner of that picture it says "Final Fantasy XIII-2". That makes it the sequel which makes it a different game, which matches with the DAO/DA2 discussion going on here. Also FFXIII-2 came out after DA2 so you're arse over ******.

[Jerrybnsn]

T764 wrote...

If you look in the corner of that picture it says "Final Fantasy XIII-2". That makes it the sequel which makes it a different game, which matches with the DAO/DA2 discussion going on here. Also FFXIII-2 came out after DA2 so you're arse over ******.

Final Fantasy has been known for their stylish, unrealistic weapons for the last twenty years not just 12 or 13 1/2.  Don't get nitpicky on me when I've been pointing out that Bioware shouldn't use that style in the Dragon Age games.  I've shown enough to prove my point of what direction they went with DAII.  A wrong direction imo.

[Jerrybnsn]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

T764 wrote...

@ Jerrybnsn, Pedantic but that's FFXII hence the reason i picked it out, FFXIII's Sci-fi and doesn't feature any oversized weapons (that i recall) .

I don't be rude, but who gives a damn about this?

Yeah, that's not rude at all.

[bEVEsthda]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

T764 wrote...

If you look in the corner of that picture it says "Final Fantasy XIII-2". That makes it the sequel which makes it a different game, which matches with the DAO/DA2 discussion going on here. Also FFXIII-2 came out after DA2 so you're arse over ******.

Final Fantasy has been known for their stylish, unrealistic weapons for the last twenty years not just 12 or 13 1/2.  Don't get nitpicky on me when I've been pointing out that Bioware shouldn't use that style in the Dragon Age games.  I've shown enough to prove my point of what direction they went with DAII.  A wrong direction imo.

Absolutely.
And the single one thing TW2 did really well, was precisely to get their world right, get the mood right, and take itself seriously. That is why TW2 felt so refreshing after DA2. In most other regards, TW2 actually went the wrong way, IMO. It's not the type of cRPG I want. I want a RPG as a 'toy'. Not as an interactive movie, with action combat and preset character, no thanks.

[bEVEsthda]

R0vena wrote...
The proposed system means - in my opinion - a lot of reloads to get out of the battles with minimum injuries and other losses (potions would be rather important, for example)  or/and spending a lot of time on strategizing the fights way ahead because otherwise you can face severe consequenses, and not even in a boss fight - just because you made a mistake early on. I understang that some players would enjoy it, but for me personally it is as far from fun as possible. 
Hack&Slash in my opinion is any game that pays attention to combat more than story and characters. No matter how strategic the combat is.

Edit: no, effortless slaying of some enemies doesn't bother me. Not every fight should be to the death, and the hero of the story is generally way above average in fighting skills. No problem here.

If you chooses to do it like that...
But the other side is worse. It means that I have to drudge through a lot of nonsensical 'bash-the-baddies' gameplay, reloading and doing it (the exact same) again until I get its meaningless, abstract, symbolic rules and patterns down right. And even when I don't reload, it's still the same **** over and over again. ...And then the retarded console "Bosses", to dodge around and whittle down a mountain. And all of it completely seperated from rest of gameplay (if there even is any), on the side.
...And unlike you, who chose to play so exploited and unimaginative, for whatever reason, - I never even had a choice.

[batlin]

R0vena wrote...

oh, no.... I don't play Bioware games for challenge in fighting. Less hack&slash, more story, please...

Then turn your difficulty down to very easy and let those of us who like good stories AND challenging and rewarding combat have our good gameplay.

Modifié par batlin, 11 juin 2012 - 09:31 .

[T764]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

T764 wrote...

If you look in the corner of that picture it says "Final Fantasy XIII-2". That makes it the sequel which makes it a different game, which matches with the DAO/DA2 discussion going on here. Also FFXIII-2 came out after DA2 so you're arse over ******.

Final Fantasy has been known for their stylish, unrealistic weapons for the last twenty years not just 12 or 13 1/2.  Don't get nitpicky on me when I've been pointing out that Bioware shouldn't use that style in the Dragon Age games.  I've shown enough to prove my point of what direction they went with DAII.  A wrong direction imo.

The point i was trying to make at first was that saying that FFXIII contains oversized fantasy weapons is like saying that ME1 contains oversized fantasy weapons, those two Final Fantasy games have different genres and settings. You were not illustrating your point at first, you were criticizing by spouting bollocks, you then continued by bringing up the sequel, you wouldn't accept me showing a picture of DA2 as proof of something being in DAO, the argument was about you being in error of the facts.

Honestly it's pointless to argue, even if Bioware were to faithfully incorporate the Oversized and OTT stuff from D&D or Warhammer it would still be criticized as a Japanese influence.

[Wozearly]

bEVEsthda wrote...

But the other side is worse. It means that I have to drudge through a lot of nonsensical 'bash-the-baddies' gameplay, reloading and doing it (the exact same) again until I get its meaningless, abstract, symbolic rules and patterns down right. And even when I don't reload, it's still the same **** over and over again. ...And then the retarded console "Bosses", to dodge around and whittle down a mountain. And all of it completely seperated from rest of gameplay (if there even is any), on the side.

Very much with you on this one.

I'm all for tactical gameplay, and for challenging encounters, but not meta-tactical gameplay. I don't mind the odd slap-to-the-face surprise when I completely foul up an encounter by misjudging it, but too frequently or too excessively and it becomes immersion breaking. When the proverbial hits the fan during an encounter, it should still be possible to rescue yourself from it, not go "Sod, I didn't dodge the first fireball of death and a missed the initial CCC opportunity, so now the RDPS is going to die at 3 minutes 20s and we won't be able to kill him before the enrage timer kicks in."

[TEWR]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

http://t0.gstatic.co...QIqKDHTYXfpM98c


hmmmmmm

To be fair the greatsword size isn't something DAII brought to the table. That was done in DAO as well. And the glowing is actually adhering to the lore about lyrium. It glows -- per Javaris and I believe DAO.

The only two things I take issue with about that.... object are 1) the design of the sword and 2) the lightsaber sound effects.

I don't mind the size of the greatswords so long as they don't look too bad in terms of overall design -- Hayder's Razor, I'm looking at you! Damn thing is absolutely.... absurd.

I mean, Meredith's sword wouldn't be that bad if it was both unique and looked better crafted. The lyrium running through the sword I don't mind. But strip that part away and there is something about the sword's design that.... really bothers me.

Over-the-top combat was the wrong direction. Also unrealistic weapons that belong in FFXIII

Agreed on the latter, I'd argue the former for a few reasons.

The more OTT elements could be ascribed to Varric embellishing -- like Mighty Blow, for instance. It makes the most sense in the context of the game (Varric likes to embellish), and I choose to see it as such.

Of course, many people also want to ascribe a lot of DAII's flaws to Varric, which brings up a conundrum: What is really due to Varric's storytelling, and what isn't?

I imagine that if DAIII has more realistic combat talents -- say Mighty Blow is changed to the Warrior slamming their greatsword into the ground, without jumping, creating a shockwave -- the people that saw DAII's combat as OTT and as a great flaw would then say...

"Huh... looks like it was Varric that made that."

I'm divided on what talents/spells/animations I find to be OTT and realistic, so I just want to say that I'm not defending DAII entirely.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 juin 2012 - 04:47 .

[R0vena]

bEVEsthda wrote...
...And unlike you, who chose to play so exploited and unimaginative, for whatever reason, - I never even had a choice.

Excuse me? How I am playing, again?

I think there is a lot of possibilities of imaginative combat in DA. Playing with different group. Choosing the different skills or spells. Exploring different CCC.  How about two two-handed warriors in the same group on NM? How about ony rogues? I played through DA 2 about 10 times - all my battles were different. Depending on my party some were more easy, some more difficult than in previous times, but they were rarely the same.

batlin,

I repeat - it is not difficulty. I prefer to play NM. It is personal preference of the certain feature and I am not sure why mine should be any less important than anybody else's. I prefer NWN rest system to BG rest system despite adoring BG as a game. It is my right, you know. You voice your opinion in hopes that developers will hear it? So do I.

I remembered suddenly why I rarely post on this forum. I guess I'll just remove myself from the discussion now. 

[wsandista]

batlin wrote...

R0vena wrote...

oh, no.... I don't play Bioware games for challenge in fighting. Less hack&slash, more story, please...

Then turn your difficulty down to very easy and let those of us who like good stories AND challenging and rewarding combat have our good gameplay.

+1

Damn batlin, you've been top game all week.

[batlin]

R0vena wrote...

batlin,

I repeat - it is not difficulty. I prefer to play NM. It is personal preference of the certain feature and I am not sure why mine should be any less important than anybody else's. I prefer NWN rest system to BG rest system despite adoring BG as a game. It is my right, you know. You voice your opinion in hopes that developers will hear it? So do I.

You said you don't play Bioware games for challenging fights. I pointed out that that's why the difficulty slider exists. What's the problem?

Modifié par batlin, 11 juin 2012 - 10:47 .

[Fast Jimmy]

batlin wrote...

R0vena wrote...

batlin,

I repeat - it is not difficulty. I prefer to play NM. It is personal preference of the certain feature and I am not sure why mine should be any less important than anybody else's. I prefer NWN rest system to BG rest system despite adoring BG as a game. It is my right, you know. You voice your opinion in hopes that developers will hear it? So do I.

You said you don't play Bioware games for challenging fights. I pointed out that that's why the difficulty slider exists. What's the problem?

To be fair, R0vena was stating she didn't mind difficult combat, but was against non-regenerating health and mama after every fight. That requires a bit of strategy outside of combat, in the form of resource management. 

Granted, the difficulty of this could be managed with changing the difficulty slider down as well, but I don't think that's what the point of contention is. 

[Melca36]

R0vena wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...
...And unlike you, who chose to play so exploited and unimaginative, for whatever reason, - I never even had a choice.

Excuse me? How I am playing, again?

I think there is a lot of possibilities of imaginative combat in DA. Playing with different group. Choosing the different skills or spells. Exploring different CCC.  How about two two-handed warriors in the same group on NM? How about ony rogues? I played through DA 2 about 10 times - all my battles were different. Depending on my party some were more easy, some more difficult than in previous times, but they were rarely the same.

batlin,

I repeat - it is not difficulty. I prefer to play NM. It is personal preference of the certain feature and I am not sure why mine should be any less important than anybody else's. I prefer NWN rest system to BG rest system despite adoring BG as a game. It is my right, you know. You voice your opinion in hopes that developers will hear it? So do I.

I remembered suddenly why I rarely post on this forum. I guess I'll just remove myself from the discussion now. 

The battles were all the same.

 And I hope you realize the developers have stated the combat would be changing for DA:3 because most of the people didnt like how it was for DA:2. 

And DA:2 was Hack and Slash....sorry but it was.