1306 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Hurbster wrote...

Blimey - how can any game with such a half-assed cut-down railroaded 3rd act be considered a step forward ?

Much like the anti-climatic final act of DAO IMHO.

DA:O didn't have an Act structure so... what are you referring to here, exactly?

For me, the "climax" of DA:O was the Landsmeet.  And  since DA:O was such a long game, a virtual roller-coaster ride through  different lands, cultures and conflicts of all types, everywhere, I was ready for the game to end after the Landsmeet.  That is to say, I neither wanted nor needed some grand Finale.  Instead, I just wanted to wrap things up.  And DA:O delivered that masterfully.  After the landsmeet,  it's just a matter of tying up  loose ends.    Aside from Morrigan's little plot twist,  the rest of the game was  a wind-down...as it should be.  No more high drama, no more Laborously meaningful dialogue....  Just  straight forward fighting to the end. Again, as it should be.

But that said, DA:O had an Epilogue even after that.   That alone scores about 10 bonus points in my book.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 18 juin 2012 - 12:42 .

[Realmzmaster]

Yrkoon wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Hurbster wrote...

Blimey - how can any game with such a half-assed cut-down railroaded 3rd act be considered a step forward ?

Much like the anti-climatic final act of DAO IMHO.

DA:O didn't have an Act structure so... what are you referring to here, exactly?

For me, the "climax" of DA:O was the Landsmeet.  And  since DA:O was such a long game, a virtual roller-coaster ride through  different lands, cultures and conflicts of all types, everywhere, I was ready for the game to end after the Landsmeet.  That is to say, I neither wanted nor needed some grand Finale.  Instead, I just wanted to wrap things up.  And DA:O delivered that masterfully.  After the landsmeet,  it's just a matter of tying up  loose ends.    Aside from Morrigan's little plot twist,  the rest of the game was  a wind-down...as it should be.  No more high drama, no more Laborously meaningful dialogue....  Just  straight forward fighting to the end. Again, as it should be.

But that said, DA:O had an Epilogue even after that.   That alone scores about 10 bonus points in my book.

Actually you can break DAO into three acts Before Ostagar, Ostagar to the Landsmeet and After the Landsmeet. I am talking about after the Landsmeet. Both final Acts in the DA games were anti-climatic.
The second acts in both were the highlight. DA2 had letters that acted as the epilogue for  quests. DA2 simply put them in game rather that putting them all at the end. Simply a different way of doing it with the same effect. The second Act in DA2 for me was as good as the Ostagar to Landsmeet in DAO. But, YMMV.

[Aulis Vaara]

Realmzmaster wrote...

DA2 had letters that acted as the epilogue for  quests. DA2 simply put them in game rather that putting them all at the end. Simply a different way of doing it with the same effect.

But it's clearly not the same effect, since so many people loved the ending of Dragon Age: Origins, yet so few people cared for the ending of Dragon Age 2...

[Aulis Vaara]

TonberryFeye wrote...

Dragon Age II has many faults. I've done two playthroughs and clocked up all the Trophies on it outside the DLC ones (which I will not buy - I don't want to play this game anymore).

For me, just some of its flaws are as follows:
1) Copy-paste environments.
That is lazy. I didn't mind it in DA:O when you re-used generic alleyways for, well, generic alleyways, but it was painfully noticable in DA2 that I was just running through the same slum house, town house, mine, sewer and 'ruin' over and over again.

2) False choice. First time through it wasn't so bad, but on the second run I found myself being beaten over the head with choices I did not want to make.

Part of the problem here is the framework of the game was screwed up. In Origins, you took sides in arguments because you NEED to. You NEED the aid of the Elves, Dwarves, Mages and Men to fight the Darkspawn. Thus, when you're told "the Dwarves won't come without a king" or "The Mages can't come unless the Abominations are slain" then you go in and fix it because you cannot proceed otherwise.

In DA2, 99% of the problems don't matter. 99% of the quests are pointless. When given a choice between sparing a mage or handing them to the Templars, there remains a third option, denied for no good reason - the option to walk away. I am not a Templar. I am not a (Circle) Mage. I am not the Viscount, nor his employee. I am not a Grey Warden trying to recruit men to fight a Blight. I am a Ferelden Refugee trying to make some coin. Your political scuffles don't matter to me unless I decide they matter... and yet if I decide they DON'T matter, I cannot opt out.

This is bad design, plain and simple.

3) Stupid, ugly Darkspawn.
Darkspawn in Origins are aweosome. They look like men who've sold their souls to the Chaos Gods - corrupted from the inside out by unspeakable power that gives them unholy strength. The Hurlocks in particular look like they could take on a small squad alone and win.
Darkspawn in DA2 look like anorexic Goblins who are only dangerous if  you've never held a sword before in your life. Nothing about their design envokes fear. Nothing about them leaves me awestruck. I have no reason to respect them because I'm too busy laughing at how stupid they look.

Darkspawn are meant to be SCARY! Make them scary again - go back to their ORIGINS appearance!

4) We aren't a Grey Warden.
I don't know about the rest of you, but to me Dragon Age is ALL ABOUT THE WARDENS! It's about how they fight a terrible, inoxerable evil. It's about how they sacrifice themselves for the greater good. It's about how their sacrifice often goes understood by those they protect, and how sometimes the people who owe them so much will demonise and betray them.

Moreover, the Grey Wardens are heroes of the finest calibre... or not, as the player decides. They can be Paladins or Blackguards, noble and benevolent or malicious and self-serving. The fact that they often seem to be less than reputable people - outcasts and miscrients who have no place in their societies of origin - only makes the order more appealing to me.

I was seriously disappointed when I discovered Hawke was not a Grey Warden. I don't care how or why, but DA3 MUST BE ABOUT WARDENS! Ideally, I'd like the Hero of Ferelden back, but if we can't play as him/her then find us a new Warden to play as.

5) DA2 isn't about Darkspawn.
Mages vs Templars was a great idea... in Origins. As a subplot, it's a wonderful idea. It shows us more about the world, and lets us decide for ourselves which is right or wrong... or whether we actually care at all. The problem was that by Act 2 of DA2 I was getting impatient and asking "when do I get to fight Darkspawn again?"
The answer, of course, is "never". Instead, we get an endless repeat of Blood Mages, Demons and the Undead. I'm sorry, but is this Dragon Age or Warhammer, I'm starting to confuse the two...

Darkspawn are what make me want to keep playing Dragon Age. I find myself morbidly curious about them - I want to know more and more, yet the more I learn about them the more horrifying they become. The revelation of what the Broodmothers are... that is chilling. It was made that much worse that my first playthrough was as a female Mage. Imagine how she must have felt then when, in Awakening, the Darkspawn captured her...

Short and simple - more Darkspawn. Politicial conflicts are a great idea for something to help break up the acts and give us secondary factors to consider, but a Dragon Age worthy of the name should always be ready to clap its hands and say "have we made a decision? Good! Let's go kill some Darkspawn!"


In conclusion, Dragon Age 2 sucked because it wasn't more of Origins.

You have unlocked the "Hitting The Nail On The Head"-achievement. Congrats!

[Yrkoon]

I agree with all his/her points until the last two (4 & 5), I never saw the Dragon age franchise as being about Grey Wardens and Darkspawn specifically. It's about Thedas, and all the conflicts within it. And I can most certainly see a great Dragon age installment being done without them.

[Cyberarmy]

Wozearly wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That's how I see it, at least. I didn't want to get sidetracked in a conversation about the Crystal Skull, I just wanted to use it as an analogy.

I think it makes for a good analogy, not least because it was another case where the film was loved by professional critics but received a distinct 'meh' from viewers.

Replicating some of the same styles and themes was expected, but the suspension of disbelief required went up a few notches too far - surviving a nuclear explosion in a fridge, for example. The action sequences were given much greater prominence, with the actual story development being incredibly linear. The use of aliens rather than the supernatural caused an unwelcome break from a series which, up to that point, had avoided sci-fi entirely.

...and attempting to artificially inject emotion with "Oh, by the way Indy, that's your son" on the most dull and uninspiring actor on the set was as false as, I don't know, killing off someone's brother or sister in the first five minutes and having their mother say "I'll never forget you...".

Spot on! Especially the bolded part!

[Fast Jimmy]

Aulis Vaara wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

DA2 had letters that acted as the epilogue for  quests. DA2 simply put them in game rather that putting them all at the end. Simply a different way of doing it with the same effect.

But it's clearly not the same effect, since so many people loved the ending of Dragon Age: Origins, yet so few people cared for the ending of Dragon Age 2...

I despised the letter format for wrapping up quest lines in both ME and in DA2. It feels so forced and trite. 

Not to mention I have yet to see a letter/email conclusion to a quest that didn't end in EXACTLY the same way as one would expect. While, on the other hand, we have seen epilogue slides that have DRAMATICALLY variant outcomes, many of which you did not expect. Choosing "good guy" Harrowmont turns out to be a bit of a disasater in the epilogue slide, as does destroying the Anvil (although that ends badly no matter what). Meanwhile, letters are written with 90% of the content "Oh, thank you Shepherd/Hawke! You are amazing and have changed my life for the better! I owe everything to you, blah blah blah... oh, here's two sentences about what I'm actually doing... nothing surprising or exciting at all! Goodbye!"

No more letters. If they aren't going to do epilogue slides (which have a long tradition of delivering great endings with lots of variety at a minimum of expense) then they need to figure out something else. People like having their resolution at the END of the game, not in the middle of it.

[TonberryFeye]

I agree that Origins Epilogues were a great way to tie up loose ends. The letters I didn't care about at all (in fact, I don't even remember what any of them said). The only one I actually gave a damn about was the letter from Bethany saying she was a Grey Warden now... and then she never wrote to me again. I was expecting regular letters from her, telling me about whether she was glad I'd saved her, or hated my guts for it.

I also agree entirely with the Harrowmont / Bhelin epilogue being one of the best; Harrowmont seems a great guy, but ultimately harms the Dwarf race due to being to focused on 'preserving the old ways'. I really didn't expect that.

I also liked how little things could blow up out of all proportion, like helping the Chantry in Orzammar could result in the Divine considering an Exalted March against the Dwarfs when the priest there is killed.

That kind of thing is what I like about Dragon Age - your actions have consequences, and you often don't learn of them until much further down the road.

[batlin]

Filament wrote...

How it's defined likely depends on the person using the term, and which aspects of DAO they valued which didn't carry over into DA2 like they wanted. Voiceless protagonist, art style, origins, the Warden, crafting, skills, etc etc.

Now, in honesty here, I've agreed with you that to summarize all of the dissatisfaction with DA2 as "just wanted more DAO" is not a fair assessment, but I still find it .. questionable when people insist the sentiment is altogether some kind of myth, when it so evidently exists.

Another DA:O would have been fine, but to say that DA2 is so hated only because it isn't DA:O is just wrong. What people want is improvements on the old, not stripping the old game's content bare and replacing it with shoddy button-mashing and less options all-around.

[wsandista]

batlin wrote...

Filament wrote...

How it's defined likely depends on the person using the term, and which aspects of DAO they valued which didn't carry over into DA2 like they wanted. Voiceless protagonist, art style, origins, the Warden, crafting, skills, etc etc.

Now, in honesty here, I've agreed with you that to summarize all of the dissatisfaction with DA2 as "just wanted more DAO" is not a fair assessment, but I still find it .. questionable when people insist the sentiment is altogether some kind of myth, when it so evidently exists.

Another DA:O would have been fine, but to say that DA2 is so hated only because it isn't DA:O is just wrong. What people want is improvements on the old, not stripping the old game's content bare and replacing it with shoddy button-mashing and less options all-around.

It depends on what is meant by "another DAO". If you mean mechanics, then yes, a sequel should play similarly to its predecessor. If you mean story-wise, then that's bull****.

Anyways, DA2 failed because it wasn't a good product. Too RPGish for an action game, and too actiony for an RPG.

[batlin]

wsandista wrote...

It depends on what is meant by "another DAO". If you mean mechanics, then yes, a sequel should play similarly to its predecessor. If you mean story-wise, then that's bull****.

Story-wise? If you mean that i shouldn't be about a Blight and killing the Archdemon then yes, obviously is shouldn't be that. If you mean having a clear goal throughout the game, no, that's just a matter of consistent storytelling. It's not samey by any means.

Anyways, DA2 failed because it wasn't a good product. Too RPGish for an action game, and too actiony for an RPG.

No, it failed as both an RPG and an action game. Good action games don;t just have you mashing one button over and over again with little rhyme or reason and have waves of enemies charging head-first into you. Good RPGs don't lock your allies' equipment and give you unreasonably limited choices.

[wsandista]

batlin wrote...

Story-wise? If you mean that i shouldn't be about a Blight and killing the Archdemon then yes, obviously is shouldn't be that. If you mean having a clear goal throughout the game, no, that's just a matter of consistent storytelling. It's not samey by any means.

I meant about stopping the Blight. DA2 didn't give the PC anything truly epic to do, and forced the PC to sit on their ass for three years t a time while everything went to hell. I still don't see how it is an improvement than DAO like some claim.

No, it failed as both an RPG and an action game. Good action games don;t just have you mashing one button over and over again with little rhyme or reason and have waves of enemies charging head-first into you. Good RPGs don't lock your allies' equipment and give you unreasonably limited choices.

It failed as both because it tried to have incompatible elements from both. Party-based mechanics don't work out well with action combat, which DA2 tried to have with the AWESOME! button. Also having stats like attack or defense make little sense in an action game, where success is determined by player-skill instead of character-skill.

[batlin]

wsandista wrote...

batlin wrote...

Story-wise? If you mean that i shouldn't be about a Blight and killing the Archdemon then yes, obviously is shouldn't be that. If you mean having a clear goal throughout the game, no, that's just a matter of consistent storytelling. It's not samey by any means.

I meant about stopping the Blight. DA2 didn't give the PC anything truly epic to do, and forced the PC to sit on their ass for three years t a time while everything went to hell. I still don't see how it is an improvement than DAO like some claim.

No, it failed as both an RPG and an action game. Good action games don;t just have you mashing one button over and over again with little rhyme or reason and have waves of enemies charging head-first into you. Good RPGs don't lock your allies' equipment and give you unreasonably limited choices.

It failed as both because it tried to have incompatible elements from both. Party-based mechanics don't work out well with action combat, which DA2 tried to have with the AWESOME! button. Also having stats like attack or defense make little sense in an action game, where success is determined by player-skill instead of character-skill.

Ah. Well I don't disagree with any of that.

[wsandista]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The difference between DAO and DA2

1. Story
DA2 is only about Kirkwall, there is no adventure, it is just a drama. Everything is just circling around the small isolated issue of Kirkwall. The world is so small (not to mention recycled maps everywhere). Every choice/descision have no meaning

DA:O is about Ferelden, it means it is about the whole country and not just a city. and there is an adventure in it. The character going through many plots and issues. Not only darkspawn issue but also human, dwarf, elf and mage-templar politic/problem. The world is big and many different places to explore. Even the Fade is big even though it is a boring place but it's big. Every choices/descision have meaning

2. Character Customization
DA2 character customization is very limited that it kill RPG element. A rogue can only use bow and dagger, a warrior cannot wield two swords, a mage cannot wear armor and weapons and we cannot customized party members as the whole (only weapon and talents). There is no freedom to make character(s) as we like. We have a lot of money in Act 2 but for what?

DAO give freedom to shape any character we want.

3. Combat Mechanic
DA2 is fast combat but boring and annoying. We fight waves skeleton, shades, rage demon, spiders and bandits with different names. In everywhere we will see these a lot. It is annoying. Respawn enemies are annoying and unreal., it makes combat have no meaning (not a satisfying combat due to "ah here we go again..and again...") There are some few new enemies but not interesting, they just steroid enemies. Enemy mages can teleport is unfair because our mages can't. Some mechanic are unreal such as rogues have magic flasks out of nowhere and rogue can vanish then re-appear behind target (a teleport attack), two handed weapon kiling all trash enemies like smashing bugs....ect

DAO combat is satisfying because we fought as hard as it can be and when the combat end we feel it is an achievement, we defeat them. The mechanic is more realistic (except some things such as rogue stealth)

4. Gameplay
DA2 is just talk then fight, talk then fight, talk then fight all the time

DAO is more than that

5. Design
DA2 have better graphic but some armor and weapon are too ugly and exaggerate

DAO while have lesser grapic but some armor and weapon can be tolerated for their look

6. The Ending
DA2 end with a letter asking to meet at a place where Orsino and Meredith arguing each other then Anders suddenly show up and boooommm a chuch is blow up, then verybody goes crazy, then final battle

DAO end with landsmeet, some plots, some tactical moves, some explorations, some dramatic moments, it is a long way before final battle.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

[Cultist]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The difference between DAO and DA2

1. Story
DA2 is only about Kirkwall, there is no adventure, it is just a drama. Everything is just circling around the small isolated issue of Kirkwall. The world is so small (not to mention recycled maps everywhere). Every choice/descision have no meaning

DA:O is about Ferelden, it means it is about the whole country and not just a city. and there is an adventure in it. The character going through many plots and issues. Not only darkspawn issue but also human, dwarf, elf and mage-templar politic/problem. The world is big and many different places to explore. Even the Fade is big even though it is a boring place but it's big. Every choices/descision have meaning

2. Character Customization
DA2 character customization is very limited that it kill RPG element. A rogue can only use bow and dagger, a warrior cannot wield two swords, a mage cannot wear armor and weapons and we cannot customized party members as the whole (only weapon and talents). There is no freedom to make character(s) as we like. We have a lot of money in Act 2 but for what?

DAO give freedom to shape any character we want.

3. Combat Mechanic
DA2 is fast combat but boring and annoying. We fight waves skeleton, shades, rage demon, spiders and bandits with different names. In everywhere we will see these a lot. It is annoying. Respawn enemies are annoying and unreal., it makes combat have no meaning (not a satisfying combat due to "ah here we go again..and again...") There are some few new enemies but not interesting, they just steroid enemies. Enemy mages can teleport is unfair because our mages can't. Some mechanic are unreal such as rogues have magic flasks out of nowhere and rogue can vanish then re-appear behind target (a teleport attack), two handed weapon kiling all trash enemies like smashing bugs....ect

DAO combat is satisfying because we fought as hard as it can be and when the combat end we feel it is an achievement, we defeat them. The mechanic is more realistic (except some things such as rogue stealth)

4. Gameplay
DA2 is just talk then fight, talk then fight, talk then fight all the time

DAO is more than that

5. Design
DA2 have better graphic but some armor and weapon are too ugly and exaggerate

DAO while have lesser grapic but some armor and weapon can be tolerated for their look

6. The Ending
DA2 end with a letter asking to meet at a place where Orsino and Meredith arguing each other then Anders suddenly show up and boooommm a chuch is blow up, then verybody goes crazy, then final battle

DAO end with landsmeet, some plots, some tactical moves, some explorations, some dramatic moments, it is a long way before final battle.

indeed. Also, darkspawn design in DA2 was abominable, and anime-like characters and 4 meter swords, donkey-elves, arcade jRPG combat with heavy armor acrobatics added salt to the injury.

Modifié par Cultist, 28 juin 2012 - 05:58 .

[wsandista]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Yeah...darkspawn is very sad...i can't lie, i laughed at their first appearance in DA2 when Varric begin to tell the story. Halloween costumes are more scarier than DA2 darkspawn

No, they look like Skeletor.

https://encrypted-tb...yFi8o1MnDmXMdO4

The combat physic is sadly unreal, heavy armored Hawke with huge gigantic weapon can rush towards enemies in a flash then make a spinning attack in 1 second, have blade aura that slashing and cutting enemies without connected to the weapon...like Naruto or fantasy kung fu movies...where is the weight? No weight at all as if Hawke is fighting on the moon. medieval fighting is not like that

Although medieval based movies using rubber weapon and armors, the actors manage to make them look heavy

Yeah, I felt like I was watching some generic anime for 13 year-old boys.

Modifié par wsandista, 28 juin 2012 - 06:15 .

[SafetyShattered]

Story wise I agree completely. DAO did a much better job of telling a story.Combat wise I really don't care. I enjoyed the combat in both games so either way I'm happy. And the randomly exploding enemies.....just no. It made no sense when I hit a dude with a dagger then he just explodes. I liked the companions in DA2....but I loved the ones in DAO. So yes OP I agree with you....DA2 did go in the wrong direction.

[Wivvix]

batlin wrote...

I mean, selling half as many copies in the first 10 weeks as DA:O is pretty telling. And half of those copies were bought in only the first week, likely due to fans of DA:O not knowing what they were getting. Yeah, there are those that prefer DA2 over DA:O but it's pretty obvious these people are in the minority.

Last I heard, Bioware is getting inspiration from Skyrim for DA3. Has there been any other news of what they'll do with it? Because taking pages out of Bethesda's book would definitely be a good thing for DA.

Yeah, it's a bit worrying.
They hit their stride with Origins. They filled a niche which was distinct from Oblivion/Skyrim and uniquely, traditionally, historically Bioware.
DA2 was a catastrophe in every respect, but most of all in its target audience.
DA3 sounds like it will be aimed towards Skyrim's target audience; so another attempt by Bioware to mainstream their games to a market segment they don't know how to produce high-fantasy for.
Based on their first failed attempt at this, DA2, I'm not hedging my bets on Bioware.

[MCPOWill]

Nizaris1 wrote...

If DA3 inspired by Skyrim...then...

The hero is a prisoner...maybe a blood mage or apostate on a carriage...about to be executed...then suddenly a dragon flew in and fry up everyone...the dragon turn out to be crazy Flemeth...then the hero have to choose following a Templar there or group of apostates...then the adventure begin...

later the hero learn that he/she is actually the son/daughter of old god dragon...a dragonborn!

"but there is one left here...in Ferelden he/she is called...the old god dragonling!!....Fus Roh Dah!"

O.O  ...dear God.... This was the original intent with te old god ending...

[Fast Jimmy]

Nizaris1 wrote...

If DA3 inspired by Skyrim...then...

The hero is a prisoner...maybe a blood mage or apostate on a carriage...about to be executed...then suddenly a dragon flew in and fry up everyone...the dragon turn out to be crazy Flemeth...then the hero have to choose following a Templar there or group of apostates...then the adventure begin...

later the hero learn that he/she is actually the son/daughter of old god dragon...a dragonborn!

"but there is one left here...in Ferelden he/she is called...the old god dragonling!!....Fus Roh Dah!"

Ironically, that's not too far from how DA2 starts out, honestly.