91 réponses à ce sujet

[Stardusk78]

If you are essentially invunerable, how is that high risk? This is a serious question.

[Shin0biwan]

You didn't need to make a separate thread for this. It's been discussed to death in many other locations.

1) It's not a glitch or a bug. At most, it's a design oversight, but it's also possibly working as intended.

2) You're not "essentially invulnerable." Cancelling Nova into a roll gives you a longer period of vulnerability than if you charge, wait, then nova or charge-nova-nova (rolls have vulnerability as you get back up).

3) It's still high risk/high reward. Plenty of enemies can kill you through invincibility frames (mostly autodeath moves), and plenty of enemies can stagger/kill you in the windows of vulnerability (even when not Nova cancelling).

Modifié par Shin0biwan, 03 mars 2012 - 04:39 .

[Stardusk78]

Shin0biwan wrote...

You didn't need to make a separate thread for this. It's been discussed to death in many other locations.

1) It's not a glitch or a bug. At most, it's a design oversight, but it's also possibly working as intended.

2) You're not "essentially invulnerable." Cancelling Nova into a roll gives you a longer period of vulnerability than if you charge, wait, then nova or charge-nova-nova (rolls have vulnerability as you get back up).

3) It's still high risk/high reward. Plenty of enemies can kill you through invincibility frames (mostly autodeath moves), and plenty of enemies can stagger/kill you in the windows of vulnerability (even when not Nova cancelling).

Well, the better question is, is it as high risk as the ME2 Vanguard?

[Butthead11]

Shin0biwan wrote...

You didn't need to make a separate thread for this. It's been discussed to death in many other locations.

1) It's not a glitch or a bug. At most, it's a design oversight, but it's also possibly working as intended.

2) You're not "essentially invulnerable." Cancelling Nova into a roll gives you a longer period of vulnerability than if you charge, wait, then nova or charge-nova-nova (rolls have vulnerability as you get back up).

3) It's still high risk/high reward. Plenty of enemies can kill you through invincibility frames (mostly autodeath moves), and plenty of enemies can stagger/kill you in the windows of vulnerability (even when not Nova cancelling).

I don't know if i'd consider Phantoms and mechs  to be "Plenty of enemies" 

And you have a 3 sec invunerability that is basically a roll/evade but better. You can charge into danger then roll into cover, you only have 1 second of vunerbaility. and a design oversight is what most people consider a "glitch" and the  vanguards exploiting it are cheating. 

[Butthead11]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Shin0biwan wrote...

You didn't need to make a separate thread for this. It's been discussed to death in many other locations.

1) It's not a glitch or a bug. At most, it's a design oversight, but it's also possibly working as intended.

2) You're not "essentially invulnerable." Cancelling Nova into a roll gives you a longer period of vulnerability than if you charge, wait, then nova or charge-nova-nova (rolls have vulnerability as you get back up).

3) It's still high risk/high reward. Plenty of enemies can kill you through invincibility frames (mostly autodeath moves), and plenty of enemies can stagger/kill you in the windows of vulnerability (even when not Nova cancelling).

Well, the better question is, is it as high risk as the ME2 Vanguard?

No of course not.

You want high risk high reward play a Melee krogan,

Vanguard is more like a medium risk/very high reward. Except Drell maybe. 

[Stardusk78]

Butthead11 wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

Shin0biwan wrote...

You didn't need to make a separate thread for this. It's been discussed to death in many other locations.

1) It's not a glitch or a bug. At most, it's a design oversight, but it's also possibly working as intended.

2) You're not "essentially invulnerable." Cancelling Nova into a roll gives you a longer period of vulnerability than if you charge, wait, then nova or charge-nova-nova (rolls have vulnerability as you get back up).

3) It's still high risk/high reward. Plenty of enemies can kill you through invincibility frames (mostly autodeath moves), and plenty of enemies can stagger/kill you in the windows of vulnerability (even when not Nova cancelling).

Well, the better question is, is it as high risk as the ME2 Vanguard?

No of course not.

You want high risk high reward play a Melee krogan,

Vanguard is more like a medium risk/very high reward. Except Drell maybe. 

Krogan, yes, truly high risk, high reward.

[Sabresandiego]

Butthead11 wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

Shin0biwan wrote...

You didn't need to make a separate thread for this. It's been discussed to death in many other locations.

1) It's not a glitch or a bug. At most, it's a design oversight, but it's also possibly working as intended.

2) You're not "essentially invulnerable." Cancelling Nova into a roll gives you a longer period of vulnerability than if you charge, wait, then nova or charge-nova-nova (rolls have vulnerability as you get back up).

3) It's still high risk/high reward. Plenty of enemies can kill you through invincibility frames (mostly autodeath moves), and plenty of enemies can stagger/kill you in the windows of vulnerability (even when not Nova cancelling).

Well, the better question is, is it as high risk as the ME2 Vanguard?

No of course not.

You want high risk high reward play a Melee krogan,

Vanguard is more like a medium risk/very high reward. Except Drell maybe. 

medium risk and very high reward? sure, but look at infiltrators. Mild risk, and Super high reward... How is that balanced? Infiltrators have the best survivability of any class AND the highest score  in most games.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2012 - 04:57 .

[Shin0biwan]

Butthead11 wrote...
I don't know if i'd consider Phantoms and mechs  to be "Plenty of enemies"

Phantoms and atlases, which come in droves on gold. We also know that banshees have an autokill.

Butthead11 wrote... 
And you have a 3 sec invunerability that is basically a roll/evade but better. You can charge into danger then roll into cover, you only have 1 second of vunerbaility. and a design oversight is what most people consider a "glitch" and the  vanguards exploiting it are cheating. 

1 second of vulnerability will get absolutely everyone killed. You won't be happy until Vanguards are totally useless, will you?

I've explained the difference between a glitch/bug and a design oversight to you before. I'm sure it'll go in one ear and out the other with you, but for everyone else: a glitch/bug is a piece of code that isn't working as intended. A design oversight is a particular result that occurs that wasn't foreseen but is a natural result of the intended elements in a system.

And I'm sure the developers can add. They clearly made the invulnerability frames of a charge and nova to be less than three seconds to avoid this issue.

And LOL at you calling people cheaters who use moves as clearly intended. People who play a class that you don't like aren't cheaters.

[capn233]

You are right, they are not cheaters. They are simply masters of exploitation.

[Butthead11]

Shin0biwan wrote...

Butthead11 wrote...
I don't know if i'd consider Phantoms and mechs  to be "Plenty of enemies"

Phantoms and atlases, which come in droves on gold. We also know that banshees have an autokill.

Butthead11 wrote... 
And you have a 3 sec invunerability that is basically a roll/evade but better. You can charge into danger then roll into cover, you only have 1 second of vunerbaility. and a design oversight is what most people consider a "glitch" and the  vanguards exploiting it are cheating. 

1 second of vulnerability will get absolutely everyone killed. You won't be happy until Vanguards are totally useless, will you?

I've explained the difference between a glitch/bug and a design oversight to you before. I'm sure it'll go in one ear and out the other with you, but for everyone else: a glitch/bug is a piece of code that isn't working as intended. A design oversight is a particular result that occurs that wasn't foreseen but is a natural result of the intended elements in a system.

And I'm sure the developers can add. They clearly made the invulnerability frames of a charge and nova to be less than three seconds to avoid this issue.

And LOL at you calling people cheaters who use moves as clearly intended. People who play a class that you don't like aren't cheaters.

Banshess are not going to be in the same game as the mechs and phantoms though.

And mechs only use execute once in a blue moon, i think i've seen it happen three times in total, and phantoms rarley insta kill on their first hit. They ussually do a combo. insta kills are one of the easiest things to avoid in the game unless your a krogan or a Turian. even if you charge into a group of them you can just roll away. The phantoms main threat has always been that rarley fired hand gun, but you wouldn't know that since nova cancel pretty much renders that useless against you. 

And @ your glitch comment, most people consider a design oversight a glitch, and eithier way it is not intended and by exploiting it you are using an unitended mechanic and thus cheating. End of story. 

[Butthead11]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Butthead11 wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

Shin0biwan wrote...

You didn't need to make a separate thread for this. It's been discussed to death in many other locations.

1) It's not a glitch or a bug. At most, it's a design oversight, but it's also possibly working as intended.

2) You're not "essentially invulnerable." Cancelling Nova into a roll gives you a longer period of vulnerability than if you charge, wait, then nova or charge-nova-nova (rolls have vulnerability as you get back up).

3) It's still high risk/high reward. Plenty of enemies can kill you through invincibility frames (mostly autodeath moves), and plenty of enemies can stagger/kill you in the windows of vulnerability (even when not Nova cancelling).

Well, the better question is, is it as high risk as the ME2 Vanguard?

No of course not.

You want high risk high reward play a Melee krogan,

Vanguard is more like a medium risk/very high reward. Except Drell maybe. 

medium risk and very high reward? sure, but look at infiltrators. Mild risk, and Super high reward... How is that balanced? Infiltrators have the best survivability of any class AND the highest score  in most games.

I never said infiltrators were balanced. and i hope your only referring to salarians. Humans don't have energy drain and are at much higher risk than their salarian counterparts. 

[Shin0biwan]

Butthead11 wrote...
Banshess are not going to be in the same game as the mechs and phantoms though.

The point is that it's looking strongly like every faction will have someone who can autokill, and those enemies slow down the Vanguard very badly.

Butthead11 wrote... 
And mechs only use execute once in a blue moon, i think i've seen it happen three times in total,

If you get too fresh with atlases as a Vanguard, it'll very likely happen at least once in a round, once per wave towards the later waves in gold.

Butthead11 wrote... and phantoms rarley insta kill on their first hit.

Phantoms will automatically do it at a certain distance.

Butthead11 wrote... 
insta kills are one of the easiest things to avoid in the game unless your a krogan or a Turian. even if you charge into a group of them you can just roll away.

No, you can't. That's the point. It can pull you out of invincibility frames, and they can do it to you as you land a charge before you can roll.

Butthead11 wrote... 
The phantoms main threat has always been that rarley fired hand gun, but you wouldn't know that since nova cancel pretty much renders that useless against you.

Phantoms are a threat in more ways than just one. If I absolutely had to pick, it'd be the fact that they can stop you from being resurrected or use a med pack.

Butthead11 wrote... 
And @ your glitch comment, most people consider a design oversight a glitch

I really don't care what you happen to think that "most people" think. That's not what a glitch is. Even if "most people" did think that, they'd be wrong.

Butthead11 wrote... 
and eithier way it is not intended and by exploiting it you are using an unitended mechanic and thus cheating. End of story. 

There's absolutely no evidence that it's unintended. You throwing a temper tantum about it doesn't make it "cheating." And if you've been paying any attention at all, you'd know that I don't use it because it hurts you much more than it helps.

Also, FYI, my Salarian is far more durable than my Vanguard. I suppose he's cheating too.

Modifié par Shin0biwan, 03 mars 2012 - 05:22 .

[AreleX]

it's not even high risk *without* it, so this is really a moot point

[themaxzero]

Love the Vanguard supporters a whole lot of: "Don't nerf me bro!"

One whole second of vulnerability. Man if one second was that bad no one would ever poke their head out of cover. The fact is if you are a dying constantly in that one second it's a problem with the player. Charge->Nova cancel out of LOS or into cover. Done simple.

Vanguards acts like this takes enormous skill and dedication. It doesn't.

Just fix the bug and move on.

[Butthead11]

The salarian infilly durability was obviously intended, it's unbalanced but it's not exploitation. You can't be so far in denial that you don't even recognize that nova cancel is unintended

and i have no idea wtf you talking about getting execute once a round as a VG against a mech. l2roll back. I play a drell and have never been executed and am currently working on gold with him. mechs are some of the most non threatening enemies in the game unless you get overwhelmed. and even then getting executed sounds like a problem of your skill rather than a actual risk that has to be valued when playing the VG.

Also if you stagger a phantom with charge you can roll back to reach a distance outside of her insta kill zone then wait 2 secs and repeat. It's that simple. people who have been playing the demo a decent time should not still be getting killed by this except in rare instances of extreme bad luck. it's one of the easiest thing to avoid.

Modifié par Butthead11, 03 mars 2012 - 05:32 .

[EsterCloat]

*yawn*

Oh look, it's this again.

[Butthead11]

EsterCloat wrote...

*yawn*

Oh look, it's this again.

I know right? 

Clearly Bioware should do something by launch based on all these threads that keep popping up. 

[Esperys]

Butthead11 wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

*yawn*

Oh look, it's this again.

I know right? 

Clearly Bioware should do something by launch based on all these threads that keep popping up. 

Guess you realize the devs have already said that for balancing issues, it's all buffs except a stasis nerf. With the exception of fixing nova cancel (which as Shinobi has said doesn't really amount to much) it's unlikely human vanguard will be touched at all.

[EsterCloat]

Butthead11 wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

*yawn*

Oh look, it's this again.

I know right? 

Clearly Bioware should do something by launch based on all these threads that keep popping up. 

Ban posting privileges?

[Esperys]

EsterCloat wrote...

Butthead11 wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

*yawn*

Oh look, it's this again.

I know right? 

Clearly Bioware should do something by launch based on all these threads that keep popping up. 

Ban posting privileges?

I lol'd....even if it would likely apply to me as well....

[Elecbender]

Is that question suppose to be rhetorical?

[Fox544]

When has the Vanguard ever been high risk? Even the starter Human kicks so much ass they have to buy boot cleaner formulated for butt smell.

[Arppis]

I think the nova canceling is for wussies. They should find a way to prevent it.

I never used it and I don't know how to even do it.

Otherwise Vanguard is fine, in my opinion.

Modifié par Arppis, 03 mars 2012 - 06:32 .

[themaxzero]

Esperys wrote...

Butthead11 wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

*yawn*

Oh look, it's this again.

I know right? 

Clearly Bioware should do something by launch based on all these threads that keep popping up. 

Guess you realize the devs have already said that for balancing issues, it's all buffs except a stasis nerf. With the exception of fixing nova cancel (which as Shinobi has said doesn't really amount to much) it's unlikely human vanguard will be touched at all.

So if it don't matter much why is he in every Vanguard nerf thread having a cry when someone brings it up?

[Stardusk78]

AreleX wrote...

it's not even high risk *without* it, so this is really a moot point

ME2 Vanguards were high risk.