91 réponses à ce sujet

[IlluminaZer0]

Shin0biwan wrote...
spout nonsense like Infiltrators can't run away with Cloak and Vanguards should be shooting from cover).

What? Vanguards have been using cover since ME1. That Charge->Nova spam is so effective as to make the concept of them using cover and shooting apparently questionable should say something in itself. This is especially as Vanguards from the beginning have always been the Soldier/Adept hybrid class.

Enemies still fire at a recently cloaked Infiltrator, which was themaxzero's point. You cannot use Cloak in a similar manner you can Nova invulnerability frames, like at all. That was the entire premise of his point -- This is evident in both the context of the original post, and his emphasis on being under "heavy fire."

[Shin0biwan]

IlluminaZer0 wrote...
What? Vanguards have been using cover since ME1. That Charge->Nova spam is so effective as to make the concept of them using cover and shooting apparently questionable should say something in itself. This is especially as Vanguards from the beginning have always been the Soldier/Adept hybrid class.

Vanguards have changed radically in design from ME1. Simply adding charge made them far less cover dependent. That's clearly the intent of the class, whether you like it or not.

IlluminaZer0 wrote... 
Enemies still fire at a recently cloaked Infiltrator, which was themaxzero's point. You cannot use Cloak in a similar manner you can Nova invulnerability frames, like at all. That was the entire premise of his point -- This is evident in both the context of the original post, and his emphasis on being under "heavy fire."

They do only at point blank or if they have cloak detection (which atm only Phantoms do), and once you leave point blank and run a blind corner they stop. You absolutely can use it to escape unless you're totally cornered, in which case a Vanguard would die as well. It's been done plenty on gold, and you can catch it in a bunch of videos posted in this forum.

[IlluminaZer0]

Shin0biwan wrote...
Vanguards have changed radically in design from ME1. Simply adding charge made them far less cover dependent. That's clearly the intent of the class, whether you like it or not.

Tell that to Drell Vanguards or ME2 Vanguards. It's all Nova invulnerability frames.

They do only at point blank or if they have cloak detection (which atm only Phantoms do), and once you leave point blank and run a blind corner they stop. You absolutely can use it to escape unless you're totally cornered, in which case a Vanguard would die as well. It's been done plenty on gold, and you can catch it in a bunch of videos posted in this forum.

First youtube video I found:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE81ZKhC7Uw#t=40s

Modifié par IlluminaZer0, 03 mars 2012 - 08:23 .

[Shin0biwan]

IlluminaZer0 wrote...
Tell that to Drell Vanguards or ME2 Vanguards. It's all Nova invulnerability frames.

And this discussion is limited to Vanguards with Nova. So what?

IlluminaZer0 wrote... 
First youtube video I found:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE81ZKhC7Uw#t=40s

 

At 40s, he runs away from 2 phantoms and an assault trooper by using cloak. He uses cloak at several points throughout the video to flee. And that's solo, on gold.

[IlluminaZer0]

Shin0biwan wrote...
And this discussion is limited to Vanguards with Nova. So what?

Shin0biwan wrote..."Simply adding charge made them far less cover dependent. That's clearly the intent of the class, whether you like it or not."

You emphasized Charge. They both have charge, and are obviously still leveraging cover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqNkp83eI3c
At 40s, he runs away from 2 phantoms and an assault trooper by using cloak. He uses cloak at several points throughout the video to flee. And that's solo, on gold.

That is not really relevant at all. In my video he is being fired at, and continues to be fired at. (Which was the other poster's point.) This video -- There are no enemies around him, there are some stray shots fired at him -- And he runs to stairs which would have in itself obfuscated him from the firing enemy.

Modifié par IlluminaZer0, 03 mars 2012 - 08:33 .

[Shin0biwan]

IlluminaZer0 wrote...

Shin0biwan wrote...
And this discussion is limited to Vanguards with Nova. So what?

"Simply adding charge made them far less cover dependent. That's clearly the intent of the class, whether you like it or not."
You emphasized Charge. They both have charge, and are obviously still leverage cover.

My point was that from ME1 to ME2, the Vanguard became less cover dependant. It makes sense that in ME3 they could be even less cover dependant. It certainly doesn't raise questions like you said.

IlluminaZer0 wrote... This video -- There are no enemies around him, there are some stray shots fired at him -- And he runs to stairs which would have in itself obfuscated him from the firing enemy.

The enemy was firing at him until he cloaked, at which point he proceeded up the stairs. I already said that at point blank enemies can see you, so the fact that the enemies aren't directly on top of him is irrelevant.

[magnuskn]

Butthead11 wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

*yawn*

Oh look, it's this again.

I know right? 

Clearly Bioware should do something by launch based on all these threads that keep popping up.

Clearly BioWare should nerf the Vanguards based on two or three certain butthurt persons spamming in those threads. Clearly. I guess if I would gin up some controversy and spam threads all day, I could get every class nerfed that way.

---

I happen to agree, however, that the Nova cancel move should be taken out. I've never done it once, but I still rock faces most of the time. ^^

Modifié par magnuskn, 03 mars 2012 - 08:42 .

[IlluminaZer0]

Shin0biwan wrote...
My point was that from ME1 to ME2, the Vanguard became less cover dependant. It makes sense that in ME3 they could be even less cover dependant. It certainly doesn't raise questions like you said.

I sort of doubt you ever played ME2 Vanguard now, especially Insanity.

Being aware of cover was (if anything) MORE important to Vanguard in ME2 than any other class in the game.

The enemy was firing at him until he cloaked, at which point he proceeded up the stairs. I already said that at point blank enemies can see you, so the fact that the enemies aren't directly on top of him is irrelevant.

Except in my video the other enemy is not point blank -- He is around 1/4 - 1/2 the distance of the entire map.

Modifié par IlluminaZer0, 03 mars 2012 - 08:40 .

[Shin0biwan]

IlluminaZer0 wrote...
I sort of doubt you ever played ME2 Vanguard now, especially Insanity. 

Being aware of cover was (if anything) MORE important to Vanguard in ME2 than any other class in the game. 

I have, twice through. Preferred soldier.

Yes, he needed to be aware of cover, but he didn't have to constantly be in it. Certainly he was in cover less than other classes, aside from maybe the assault sentinel.

I never claimed the ME2 Vanguard totally forwent cover. Quite the opposite - I said ME2 Vanguard could sometimes eschew cover, but ME3 is yet another step in that direction.

 

IlluminaZer0 wrote... 
Except in my video the other enemy is not point blank -- He is around 1/4 - 1/2 the distance of the entire map.

Except in your video the player kept shooting at the enemy. Further, I never said it always works, just that it works often enough to be a viable tactic. It was a response to saying that it could never be used that way. It absolutely can, and does get used that way often.

[Butthead11]

Shin0biwan wrote...

Butthead11 wrote...
The salarian infilly durability was obviously intended, it's unbalanced but it's not exploitation. You can't be so far in denial that you don't even recognize that nova cancel is unintended

So one straightforward use of powers is fine, and the other is cheating? Sorry, cheating doesn't occur when others don't conform to your vision of how the game is played.

<_<
Nova cancel is not a straight foward use of the power, it was a recently discovered exploit.. Your head is so far up your own nova cancelling ass you can't even see this the difference between an unintended exploit  being abused and an OP power/class being used as intended. 

Cheating occurs when you abuse the systems of the game to win in a way that was not intended. 

[Butthead11]

magnuskn wrote...

Butthead11 wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

*yawn*

Oh look, it's this again.

I know right? 

Clearly Bioware should do something by launch based on all these threads that keep popping up.

Clearly BioWare should nerf the Vanguards based on two or three certain butthurt persons spamming in those threads. Clearly. I guess if I would gin up some controversy and spam threads all day, I could get every class nerfed that way.

---

I happen to agree, however, that the Nova cancel move should be taken out. I've never done it once, but I still rock faces most of the time. ^^

I'm pretty sure there's been more than two or three people hating on VG nova cancel... 

[IlluminaZer0]

Shin0biwan wrote...
Yes, he needed to be aware of cover, but he didn't have to constantly be in it. Certainly he was in cover less than other classes, aside from maybe the assault sentinel.

I never claimed the ME2 Vanguard totally forwent cover. Quite the opposite - I said ME2 Vanguard could sometimes eschew cover, but ME3 is yet another step in that direction.

Any decent ME2 Vanguard player knows the importance of mapping out a fall-back plan (that generally implies effective cover) after every charge. The "Charge 101" video is a good illustration of that mentality. Even if you could prove that Charge meant that Vanguard spent more time outside of cover (you can't), cover tactics for ME2 Vanguards were far more involving than any other class in the game by neccessity.

Except in your video the player kept shooting at the enemy. Further, I never said it always works, just that it works often enough to be a viable tactic. It was a response to saying that it could never be used that way. It absolutely can, and does get used that way often.

When he initiates cloak and lines up energy drain, he is not shooting the enemy.

Modifié par IlluminaZer0, 03 mars 2012 - 08:54 .

[Shin0biwan]

Butthead11 wrote...
<_<
Nova cancel is not a straight foward use of the power, it was a recently discovered exploit.. Your head is so far up your own nova cancelling ass you can't even see this the difference between an unintended exploit  being abused and an OP power/class being used as intended. 

Cheating occurs when you abuse the systems of the game to win in a way that was not intended. 

It wasn't recently discovered. It was obvious you could cancel Nova immediately. Misinformed people like you are only just now outcrying about it - that doesn't mean it wasn't known.

Cheating: [/b]an[/b] immoral way of achieving a goal. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation.

If it's in the game, then it's part of the rules. Intent has nothing to do with that, and you can't prove intent anyway. Cheating would be modding/hacking the game to change the rules.

As I've explained to you many times over, I don't nova cancel. I don't avoid nova cancelling because it's "cheating." I avoid it because it actually increases the length of time that you're vulnerable and sacrifices damage.

Stop being a two year old. Not everyone who fails to abide by your arbitrary rules is "cheating."

[Butthead11]

Shin0biwan wrote...

Butthead11 wrote...
<_<
Nova cancel is not a straight foward use of the power, it was a recently discovered exploit.. Your head is so far up your own nova cancelling ass you can't even see this the difference between an unintended exploit  being abused and an OP power/class being used as intended. 

Cheating occurs when you abuse the systems of the game to win in a way that was not intended. 

It wasn't recently discovered. It was obvious you could cancel Nova immediately. Misinformed people like you are only just now outcrying about it - that doesn't mean it wasn't known.

Cheating: [/b]an[/b] immoral way of achieving a goal. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation.

If it's in the game, then it's part of the rules. Intent has nothing to do with that, and you can't prove intent anyway. Cheating would be modding/hacking the game to change the rules.

As I've explained to you many times over, I don't nova cancel. I don't avoid nova cancelling because it's "cheating." I avoid it because it actually increases the length of time that you're vulnerable and sacrifices damage.

Stop being a two year old. Not everyone who fails to abide by your arbitrary rules is "cheating."

Most vangaurds did not discover it until a few days into the demo,  most learned it from the video that was posted showing the trick if you want to dig up the old thread and see for yourself.  it was definatley not obvious in anyway shape or form even to most veteran Vanguard players. 

"if it's in the game, then it's part of the rules" 
So if there's a spot on the ghost map that once you take cover behind it makes your shields indestructible and you use that to win everytime you play the map it's not cheating because it's in the game and you can't prove the intent? Seriously leave the denial zone, nova cancel is cheating.

I also doubt someone who dosen't care for nova cancel would so Adamantley defending it. Your talking Bull****. 

Also "2 year old" seriously? thats what you're going to turn this into. Saying something like that makes you the immature one me thinks. I'm trying to keep the game free of cheaters and taking the morale high ground. I think i have every right to complain about cheaters in a product i buy.

Modifié par Butthead11, 03 mars 2012 - 09:03 .

[ncknck]

what are you talking about guys, demo isnt down.

[Irenicusss]

Shin0biwan wrote...

You didn't need to make a separate thread for this. It's been discussed to death in many other locations.

1) It's not a glitch or a bug. At most, it's a design oversight, but it's also possibly working as intended.

2) You're not "essentially invulnerable." Cancelling Nova into a roll gives you a longer period of vulnerability than if you charge, wait, then nova or charge-nova-nova (rolls have vulnerability as you get back up).

3) It's still high risk/high reward. Plenty of enemies can kill you through invincibility frames (mostly autodeath moves), and plenty of enemies can stagger/kill you in the windows of vulnerability (even when not Nova cancelling).

My friend I enjoyed playing vanguard untill I found out about the nova cancel thingy. I'm inviting you to spectate me one gold match while I play vanguard and If I even get hit in HP I'm deleting the game and sending you my pre-order. Ok ? It's so broken as it can possibly be in ME universe. This is not CS where you can use tricks to reload faster, swap guns faster, move faster by jumping etc. etc. etc. ME has role playing involved, numbers, cooldowns, disisions, not just plain shooting, and negleting all that by just using nova cancel whenever you feel like it... sorry but that's not ME ( Mass Effect) 


P.S. Yes, I'm a good vanguard, yes I loveED playing it human or drell doesnt matter. Drell is more stylish btw . I played it in ME2, always on insanity btw it was the fastest class to beat it if people remember. And now I DON'T enjoy it when I found this exploit and will possibly never play it untill they fix it.

Modifié par Irenicusss, 03 mars 2012 - 09:51 .

[stysiaq]

Well, it is an obvious exploit and to think otherwise is just fooling yourself.

Not that I care, I don't see many VG on gold, and bronze and silver is easy with every class.
And it is still less fun-spoiling than stasis win button.