143 réponses à ce sujet

[curelightwounds]

Hey I hear you like food. Try this food. Like that? Here's more food. Pretty good huh? Okay. Now try THIS food. Just kidding its poison. We all knew it had to be this way.

[DifferentD17]

Subject One wrote...

Your argument sounds like: "players don't matter", when if there where no players there would be no games.

And without writers there won't be stories. And without developers there won't be games and gamers.

You're funny.

[RamirezWolfen]

DifferentD17 wrote...

RamirezWolfen wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

RamirezWolfen wrote...


But what if that was never planned? They can't take away something they never promised to give.

Players planned it. And Devs promised diverse endings.  So they did promise things.

The endings are diverse. If I recall, three different endings with three variations each, so it's 9? At least that's what I heard.  And what the players planned doesn't really matter, as they aren't making the game, no offense though.

EDIT: Spacing. I need to type slower.

They aren't different. You get 1 with different color relays exploding. Have you looked into it or are you just going by what you heard? It does matter if the devs say there will be diverse endings. Your argument sounds like: "players don't matter", when if there where no players there would be no games.

I think you're right, my argument is coming off as players don't matter, and I don't want to say that. what I actually want to say is that we should try to look at it from different angles, maybe we won't feel so betrayed then. Everyone's complaints on this are valid in my opinion.

EDIT: Grammar. Oh, and sorry if I sounded rude.

Modifié par RamirezWolfen, 03 mars 2012 - 06:05 .

[dizzymonkey_bio]

DifferentD17 wrote...

Subject One wrote...

Your argument sounds like: "players don't matter", when if there where no players there would be no games.

And without writers there won't be stories. And without developers there won't be games and gamers.

You're funny.

And without the universe there can't be apple pies:  
 

[Legendaryred]

Geez, I paid a lot of money during ME1 and ME2 and just shelled another 80 dollars for ME3, so I believe i have every single right to be angry at EA and BW.

[Subject One]

Xilizhra wrote...

If Frankenstein story was an 'interactive' videogame we will have the right to change the end avoiding the tragedy of the monster and the doctor? This won't make the whole story pointless?

No. It's a story made by us, and we create our own meaning therefrom. By circumventing the tragedy, all it does is change the theme a bit to something about overcoming fear instead of succumbing.

if Casablanca was an interactive movie many viewers would have chosen that Boggey and Bergman ended together ... which would have completely killed the story and the film won't be remembered as a classic. So I honestly think that there isn't an easy answer to the question.

I don't personally like it, but it's also not a video game and wholly different standards apply.

Yes, but maybe ME franchise will be remembered in the future for its non compromised to the fans dark ending. Who knows.

And by the way who sets the standars for videogames? The players or the developers?

The debate is not so far from the Author VS Fans from other media.

Did you know that Arthur Conan Doyle finally resurrected Sherlock Holmes because of the fan rage???

Maybe some day Sheppard will return from its grave through a patch

[Cirreus]

dizzymonkey_bio wrote...

Joescrab wrote...

This is Bioware's game, not yours. This is Bioware's story, not yours. Yes, you have some impact on individual character's stories and can impact the end of the game to a degree, but this game is ending the way Bioware wants. What many people seem to forget is that this is a labor of love that Bioware has worked on for over half a decade, and if they want bitter endings then they are gonna have some bitter endings. Everyone needs to stop being so worked up over the endings and start appreciating the unique path they are taking going for a darker ending to an epic trilogy instead of a rainbow and sunshine one. Can you even remember the last time a HUGE series like this has ended on a dark note? I sure as hell can't, and I give massive props to Bioware allowing one of the biggest franchises ever to go out the way they want, and not how anyone else does.

It's their story, their franchise, and their ending. Deal with it.

What a cute idea.  I should try that with our customers:  

"You paid for our product, used it according to the theme we have set with previous versions and based on things we have conveyed to you.  Unfortunately, that really doesn't mean anything.  We are instead of going to pull the rug out from under you and you can suck it up and deal with it since it's our product".

Yeah, doesn't work that way.  It's a video game but Bioware is still a business and the players are still customers.

Sometimes in business you have to do stuff similiar to that (perhaps on a smaller scale) but when you do:
A)  Expect absolute hell from your customer base (even if you have #2)
 You better have a damn good reason for doing it and be able to justify your choice beyond "we felt like it".  

As this is a science FICTION story good luck finding a good business reason for doing what they supposedly did to the endings.  This was a personal taste choice on their part that goes against the grain of previous comments 
from Bioware regarding impact of choice and the theme set in the first 2 games.  Folks are pissed and they have reason to be (aassuming the leaked info is accurate and no other endings or options are floating around which is unlikely).

Spot on. The OP neglects rule #1 of creation (wether it be a Art/Ideas/Material/etc) : It's no longer yours once another person sees/knows it. The cat's out of the bag. Pandora's box opened. Apple eaten. Mass Effect 1 sold heroism. Mass Effect 2 sold characters & revenge. What's Mass Effect 3 selling ? Everything up until the leaked endings of Deus Ex ... Mass Effect 3 showed some heroic ending & marketing repeated implied hardwork would pay off if you wanted favorable endings. Well there is tons of increasingly crediable evidence that the endings are virtually the same (and or blatently copied from another game with a completely different tone).

[Wookie Defense] The Titanic is horrible evet in history, yet many people are engrossed in it's story, crew, demise & discovery. The movies glorifies the tragedy of it. But you don't see any AAA title selling gameplay of Captain'n that ship. Nobody wants to be Captain Ed. Smith. I want to be Commander Sherpard. Even if it's means playing the role of Bruce Willis in Armageddon. I want see the heroic ending, the crew get home & the damn band play a rock song at the end [/End Defense]

[Witty_Remark]

Subject One wrote...

Witty_Remark wrote...

Joescrab wrote...

Because no story has ever sounded stupid just from the endings...

Guess what? Frankenstien is a stupid story because all I know is that Franky and his monster die in the end! WTF WHAT A STUPID STORY NO ONE LIVES OMG

You have to understand the context in which these ending occur, because I can promise you Bioware isn't going to leave you high and dry

The Frakenstein story never promised the reader they could decide the outcome. Titanic was tragic, and great, but no one ever promised the watcher had a choice in the outcome.

It is not fair to the consumers of this particular franchise to sell the series on choice and then decide at the eleventh hour to make some kind of artistic statement. Even worse if this was just set up for another series in the franchise, but that is only hearsay rumor at the moment.

This whole debate is fascinating. At least for me.

If Frankenstein story was an 'interactive' videogame we will have the right to change the end avoiding the tragedy of the monster and the doctor? This won't make the whole story pointless?

Bioware has had to choose between giving complete freedom no matter what or to give a  limited range of choices in order to give a ending that matches (al least for them) with the meaning of the trilogy. And they have opted for the latter.

Sure, people who complain has a point: this is interactive, why not just choose what we want? But some stories are way less powerful if you change the ending.

if Casablanca was an interactive movie many viewers would have chosen that Boggey and Bergman ended together ... which would have completely killed the story and the film won't be remembered as a classic. So I honestly think that there isn't an easy answer to the question.

Sorry for the 'Cahiers Du Videogame' comment. Maybe I think too much. Let me try something more akin to BSN:

"Pre-Order Cancelled!!!"

Better now?

There are plenty of games that tell a story and make a point of it. If Casablanca or Frankenstein were videogames trying to deliberately sell tragedy or moral enlightenment, I doubt they would have been sold on the platform of 'choice'.

They would have been more traditional video games where you are indeed along for the ride and it's an amazing experience. Mass Effect was never sold as that kind of game.

[xtorma]

Aesieru wrote...

A lot of people have gotten too attached to their personal character that is merely a part of the plot and story, not the entire plot.

They keep forgetting that the Reapers purpose and what revolves around it or occurs despite it is the real plot and the ending needs to focus on that not Shephard.

how could they not know people would get attached to the characters, when they designed the last two games to do exactly that?

[Xilizhra]

Yes, but maybe ME franchise will be remembered in the future for its non compromised to the fans dark ending. Who knows.

I'm sure it will. Badly.

[DifferentD17]

RamirezWolfen wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

RamirezWolfen wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

RamirezWolfen wrote...


But what if that was never planned? They can't take away something they never promised to give.

Players planned it. And Devs promised diverse endings.  So they did promise things.

The endings are diverse. If I recall, three different endings with three variations each, so it's 9? At least that's what I heard.  And what the players planned doesn't really matter, as they aren't making the game, no offense though.

EDIT: Spacing. I need to type slower.

They aren't different. You get 1 with different color relays exploding. Have you looked into it or are you just going by what you heard? It does matter if the devs say there will be diverse endings. Your argument sounds like: "players don't matter", when if there where no players there would be no games.

I think you're right, my argument is coming off as players don't matter, and I don't want to say that. what I actually want to say is that we should try to look at it from different angles, maybe we won't feel so betrayed then. Everyone's complaints on this are valid in my opinion.

EDIT: Grammar. Oh, and sorry if I sounded rude.

I think the reason most would feel betrayed is all the promises, and all the time, emotion, and money invested into their favorite franchise. One of the scariest things for me is it becoming like DA2 where your favorite characters don't feel as real anymore.

It's alright everyone on here is a little tense at the moment.

[dw99027]

dizzymonkey_bio wrote...

dw99027 wrote...

What a cute idea.  I should try that with our customers:

Depends on the product. I am a Mechanical Engineer and I run a Engineering design business. While I still get to be creative, I don't get to ignore ISO rules for bolts and screws because my product won't work. Huge difference from being an artist of any kind.

I am also an engineer and we have some flexibility in what we do but that has little to no bearing on when a company changes gears from a previously set message when it impacts customers who have operated based on information that you have provided and are now changing from under them.

That doesn't happen in Engineering. I get a specific order for a specific single machine part or a complex apparatus and then fulfil it. I don't make these things and then hope someone buys them. That's fundamentally different. Little if any artistic licence in what I do.

[GBGriffin]

xtorma wrote...


how could they not know people would get attached to the characters, when they designed the last two games to do exactly that?

This. So very much this.

The games condition you to care, be it through LI's, squad upgrades, or simply who will help you the most on an Insanity run. It's what I've enjoyed the most out of this entire series...I really can't say I've cared as much about a supporting cast of characters in any other series.

My issue isn't with what happens to Shepard and the galaxy...it's what happens to the characters I've been groomed to care about.

[RamirezWolfen]

DifferentD17 wrote...

I think the reason most would feel betrayed is all the promises, and all the time, emotion, and money invested into their favorite franchise. One of the scariest things for me is it becoming like DA2 where your favorite characters don't feel as real anymore.

It's alright everyone on here is a little tense at the moment.

That's a worry I can say we both have.

[Corvus Metus]

I wonder if the vast majority of posters here, who are complaining about the ME3 ending, would rage after beating the first Baldur's Gate and get... No ending.

I wonder if they play any video game, because its fun to play, regardless of story or lack thereof.

I wonder if they play video games outside of modern role-playing games.

[Subject One]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, but maybe ME franchise will be remembered in the future for its non compromised to the fans dark ending. Who knows.

I'm sure it will. Badly.

Mmmmmm... time will tell. I remember when ME2 was launched and the rage here in BSN because the franchise was not an RPG anymore, so it will be remembered as the title were Bioware stab at the back of their fans... Today ME2 is regarded as a classic even with its flaws.

And beyond all the new rage against ME3... do you know what? All the comments I've read from people that actually has played the game are enthusiastic, praising the story even with the plot holes and the lack of diversitiy. So I will wait some weeks before make MY judgement

[MythicLegands]

GBGriffin wrote...

xtorma wrote...


how could they not know people would get attached to the characters, when they designed the last two games to do exactly that?

This. So very much this.

The games condition you to care, be it through LI's, squad upgrades, or simply who will help you the most on an Insanity run. It's what I've enjoyed the most out of this entire series...I really can't say I've cared as much about a supporting cast of characters in any other series.

My issue isn't with what happens to Shepard and the galaxy...it's what happens to the characters I've been groomed to care about.

especially Tali and Garrus they don't derserve their horrible fate.

[GBGriffin]

Corvus Metus wrote...

I wonder if the vast majority of posters here, who are complaining about the ME3 ending, would rage after beating the first Baldur's Gate and get... No ending.

I wonder if they play any video game, because its fun to play, regardless of story or lack thereof.

I wonder if they play video games outside of modern role-playing games.

Apples and oranges, really. Different series, entirely different pretenses.

[Cobra's_back]

Joescrab wrote...

Because no story has ever sounded stupid just from the endings...

Guess what? Frankenstien is a stupid story because all I know is that Franky and his monster die in the end! WTF WHAT A STUPID STORY NO ONE LIVES OMG

You have to understand the context in which these ending occur, because I can promise you Bioware isn't going to leave you high and dry

Frankenstien had a message at least the book did. I'm sure Bioware has one with this story as well. Once we get all the way through the game we should see it. Personally I don't have a problem with any of the endings.

[DifferentD17]

RamirezWolfen wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

I think the reason most would feel betrayed is all the promises, and all the time, emotion, and money invested into their favorite franchise. One of the scariest things for me is it becoming like DA2 where your favorite characters don't feel as real anymore.

It's alright everyone on here is a little tense at the moment.

That's a worry I can say we both have.

Went back to the shadow broker today (liara) and all she says is, "shepard i'm glad you came", or When I was romancing her: "thanks for stopping by."

So bland to me, I'd rather be able to talk about other things with her.

Modifié par DifferentD17, 03 mars 2012 - 06:23 .

[Xilizhra]

Mmmmmm... time will tell. I remember when ME2 was launched and the rage here in BSN because the franchise was not an RPG anymore, so it will be remembered as the title were Bioware stab at the back of their fans... Today ME2 is regarded as a classic even with its flaws.

"classic" is pushing it. It was a decent sequel, but fell short of what it could be.

And beyond all the new rage against ME3... do you know what? All the comments I've read from people that actually has played the game are enthusiastic, praising the story even with the plot holes and the lack of diversitiy. So I will wait some weeks before make MY judgement

Three possibilities exist here:
1. There are better endings we haven't seen yet.
2. They're being paid to lie.
3. None of them are actual fans of the series and thus have no emotional investment in any characters.

[Subject One]

RamirezWolfen wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

I think the reason most would feel betrayed is all the promises, and all the time, emotion, and money invested into their favorite franchise. One of the scariest things for me is it becoming like DA2 where your favorite characters don't feel as real anymore.

It's alright everyone on here is a little tense at the moment.

That's a worry I can say we both have.

Xiosite, a guy who has played already the game twice, said that characters are better than ever, with very touching moments. No worries for me.

And, anyway, I don't see why the ending will make the characters better or worse while you are playing the game

[dizzymonkey_bio]

dw99027 wrote...

dizzymonkey_bio wrote...

dw99027 wrote...

What a cute idea.  I should try that with our customers:

Depends on the product. I am a Mechanical Engineer and I run a Engineering design business. While I still get to be creative, I don't get to ignore ISO rules for bolts and screws because my product won't work. Huge difference from being an artist of any kind.

I am also an engineer and we have some flexibility in what we do but that has little to no bearing on when a company changes gears from a previously set message when it impacts customers who have operated based on information that you have provided and are now changing from under them.

That doesn't happen in Engineering. I get a specific order for a specific single machine part or a complex apparatus and then fulfil it. I don't make these things and then hope someone buys them. That's fundamentally different. Little if any artistic licence in what I do.

Of course it happens in engineering, just maybe not in your style of engineering.  I work in software and we do create products with the intent of selling them to fill a niche we believe exists rather than a pure result of a custom order.  

In that case, if we get people invested in a product for several versions (say they build a business using a tool or piece of software) and then we totally change gears on what that product is we will have hell to pay.  The customer will feel betrayed as they have spent time getting familiar with a certain mechanism or even worse spent time (same as money) setting up internal process around said tool.  By changing things without good reason the customer now has to spend more (time/money) updating and re-evaluate if the product is still worth using.  If we do this without a damn good reason then there is hellish backlash (rightly so).

I don't get to have Bioware build me a custom game per my specifications (they really should considering how awesome I am) so I am not sure how well the custom spec -> build product comparison applies.

[Xilizhra]

And, anyway, I don't see why the ending will make the characters better or worse while you are playing the game

The knowledge that they're doomed and everything is pointless.

[RamirezWolfen]

DifferentD17 wrote...

RamirezWolfen wrote...

DifferentD17 wrote...

I think the reason most would feel betrayed is all the promises, and all the time, emotion, and money invested into their favorite franchise. One of the scariest things for me is it becoming like DA2 where your favorite characters don't feel as real anymore.

It's alright everyone on here is a little tense at the moment.

That's a worry I can say we both have.

Went back to the shadow broker today (liara) and all she says is, "shepard i'm glad you came", or When I was romancing her: "thanks for stopping by."

So bland to me, I'd rather be able to talk about other things with her.

I think they should have added a lot more dialogue with characters in ME2. Here's hoping they did that in ME3.