317 réponses à ce sujet

[WizenSlinky0]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...


Well the people who'd want to become more human again won't last long, and will eventually be forgotten. Since everyone is also part organic, the children they'll have will be cyborgs as well, and those kids won't have anyreason to want to go back to being full organic.

As for the people who want to go back, they're philosophy will die out, and become unpopular, and maybe even a few of them will change their minds. Even if there is some issue at first, it won't last very long. Atleast not for a generation or so. 

Will it? It's a cultural thing. There's a very good risk of a full-on cultural divide. Kids on one half would grow up learning about how good it was to be human, and the other how good it is to be synthetic.

Kids are nutured by their enviroment. Yeah, some of them would change sides but anything that changes society that quickly and forced carried the risk of more than just a "temperary backlash" but a fundamental shift in how society interacts.

[Melra]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

FJVP wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...
Best part too is you can Lazarus Project yourself.  Control really does seem like the smart call.

How? Shepard is vaporized in the Control ending.

Pull an EDI. Your core consciousness is housed in the Citadel but you have a mech body you can walk around in.

Yeah because everybody wants to be a robot.

[themaxzero]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...


Well the people who'd want to become more human again won't last long, and will eventually be forgotten. Since everyone is also part organic, the children they'll have will be cyborgs as well, and those kids won't have anyreason to want to go back to being full organic.

As for the people who want to go back, they're philosophy will die out, and become unpopular, and maybe even a few of them will change their minds. Even if there is some issue at first, it won't last very long. Atleast not for a generation or so. 

Will it? It's a cultural thing. There's a very good risk of a full-on cultural divide. Kids on one half would grow up learning about how good it was to be human, and the other how good it is to be synthetic.

Kids are nutured by their enviroment. Yeah, some of them would change sides but anything that changes society that quickly and forced carried the risk of more than just a "temperary backlash" but a fundamental shift in how society interacts.

Yeah bit the synthetic side would actually be right. Again I point to the real world, prosthetic limbs, pacemakers and hearing aids. They are also working on a synthetic eye.

No backlash because they are not as good as the biological original. But what if they were? What if they were actually better?

http://www.runnerswo...12492-0,00.html

Posted that earlier.

[AlphaJarmel]

Aesieru wrote...

Doesn't work like that, he's the new Guardian he's not just on the servers for no reason.

Taking him off could call the reapers back for all we know and you couldn't anyway.

 

Send the Reapers into the sun then offload.  Control does not in any way have to be permanent.

Aesieru wrote...
Actually, if you look at the Geth and read on them and read the entries for their planets, they pretty much devour everything. Also, you can't expand past the galaxy, the relays are the only means of distant travel designed it'd taken thousands upon thousands.

The galactic extinction cycle has gone on for millions of years or more, a 100 thousand to devour the galaxy is nothing and not to be thought of lightly.

I haven't seen anything stating that they absorb more resources than any organic empire.

The Geth don't really have a lifecycle or lifespan so time is much less of an issue for them.  Now if you're arguing that any species left unchecked will keep expanding and using resources then what you're suggesting is that the Cycles are indeed correct and should be continued.  Even then there are limitations as there are only so many habitable planets in the galaxy.

Modifié par AlphaJarmel, 03 mars 2012 - 05:57 .

[Eclipse_9990]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...


Well the people who'd want to become more human again won't last long, and will eventually be forgotten. Since everyone is also part organic, the children they'll have will be cyborgs as well, and those kids won't have anyreason to want to go back to being full organic.

As for the people who want to go back, they're philosophy will die out, and become unpopular, and maybe even a few of them will change their minds. Even if there is some issue at first, it won't last very long. Atleast not for a generation or so. 

Will it? It's a cultural thing. There's a very good risk of a full-on cultural divide. Kids on one half would grow up learning about how good it was to be human, and the other how good it is to be synthetic.

Kids are nutured by their enviroment. Yeah, some of them would change sides but anything that changes society that quickly and forced carried the risk of more than just a "temperary backlash" but a fundamental shift in how society interacts.

Well we can just show those kids videos on how organics acted before the merge. Also I'm sure the kids being super awesome cyborgs will be able to look things up themselves more easily. Obviously this is purely my opinion, but I doubt they would want to be full organic. Considering that they get all of the benefits of an organic, and none of the weaknesses. 

Their parents stories would be like

"Oh I remember the days before the merge.. It used to take me 6 hours to complete assignments that now take me a minute or so, also I remember how fragile I used to be. How a staying out in the rain for a few minutes could give me a fever, and keep me in bed for weeks, and how I would never be able to survive a 20 foot fall.

I also remember how inefficient everything was back then, and how we'd never get anything done. Good times... Good times... "

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 03 mars 2012 - 05:57 .

[themaxzero]

Melrache wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

FJVP wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...
Best part too is you can Lazarus Project yourself.  Control really does seem like the smart call.

How? Shepard is vaporized in the Control ending.

Pull an EDI. Your core consciousness is housed in the Citadel but you have a mech body you can walk around in.

Yeah because everybody wants to be a robot.

Well that's easy for you to say your body (I assume) is in fine working order. I wonder what someone in a wheelchair would say a the option for a pair of synthetic legs? Especially if the synthetic legs were actually better then the biological versions?

[WizenSlinky0]

themaxzero wrote...

Yeah bit the synthetic side would actually be right. Again I point to the real world, prosthetic limbs, pacemakers and hearing aids. They are also working on a synthetic eye.

No backlash because they are not as good as the biological original. But what if they were? What if they were actually better?

http://www.runnerswo...12492-0,00.html

Posted that earlier.

Just having robotic parts isn't enough. That's a cyborg. You still require the same things as a human more or less. This is a fundamental shift in needs and mental processes.

[Taleroth]

Melrache wrote...

Yeah because everybody wants to be a robot.

Well, the smart one do, anyway.

I'm just saying. Robots don't have BO.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 mars 2012 - 06:01 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Well we can just show those kids videos on how organics acted before the merge. Also I'm sure the kids being super awesome cyborgs will be able to look things up themselves more easily. Obviously this is purely my opinion, but I doubt they would want to be full organic. Considering that they get all of the benefits of an organic, and none of the weaknesses. 

Their parents stories would be like

"Oh I remember the days before the merge.. It used to take me 6 hours to complete assignments that now take me a minute or so, also I remember how fragile I used to be. How a staying out in the rain for a few minutes could give me a fever, and keep me in bed for weeks, and how I would never be able to survive a 20 foot fall.

I also remember how inefficient everything was back then, and how we'd never get anything done. Good times... Good times... "

It really depends on how synthetic we are becoming. You're really playing with fire in the synergy ending. The decision is forced upon a population who may no longer be entirely themselves. It can leave a hole in the psyche. A disconnect if you will.

I'm not trying to say that the ending is the wrong choice or the right choice. Only that, like the others, it has potentially unintended consequences.

Synthetics have an entirely different manner of thinking and doing things. Fundamentally different needs. To bridge the gap, one or the other would have to give up a lot of what it meant to be "Organic" or "Synthetic".

Also, being Synthetic does not mean humans won't still act like dip****s . The Geth are an example of how splits can occur between Synthetic life. There would still be things like war and nations. They would just be represented differently more than likely.

[Zyrious]

themaxzero wrote...

Melrache wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

FJVP wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...
Best part too is you can Lazarus Project yourself.  Control really does seem like the smart call.

How? Shepard is vaporized in the Control ending.

Pull an EDI. Your core consciousness is housed in the Citadel but you have a mech body you can walk around in.

Yeah because everybody wants to be a robot.

Well that's easy for you to say your body (I assume) is in fine working order. I wonder what someone in a wheelchair would say a the option for a pair of synthetic legs? Especially if the synthetic legs were actually better then the biological versions?

We arent talking about donating synthetic parts to a disabled person. We're talking about forcing ALL organic life in the entire galaxy to have their ENTIRE organic structure merged with the synthetic, changing their very thought processes in order to ensure the singularity does not happen. It's indoctrination mixed with forced mutilation. It is unethical by most people's moral code's. In the Destroy ending you sacrifice the Geth, but that's it. The reapers are gone, and the war is won. In Synergy you literally give up what you were fighting for - The right to live, as you are, and not as a reaper or a synergy being. Control is just going to the darkside and becoming the new reaper god.

Modifié par Zyrious, 03 mars 2012 - 06:05 .

[AlphaJarmel]

I'm still not even sure how synthesis is possible on a biological level. Like at all.

[WizenSlinky0]

AlphaJarmel wrote...

I'm still not even sure how synthesis is possible on a biological level. Like at all.

It ammounts to space magic. Which makes it difficult to paint the ending in either a good or bad light without making a lot of assumptions, since no one knows exactly what's changing or how.

[Zyrious]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

I'm still not even sure how synthesis is possible on a biological level. Like at all.

It ammounts to space magic. Which makes it difficult to paint the ending in either a good or bad light without making a lot of assumptions, since no one knows exactly what's changing or how.

I think it's similar to the borg on a level, the wave probably contains nanites (which are suppose to be able to alter things on a molecular/atomic level, depending on who you ask). Creating a mix of organic and synthetic processes. Many of the brains processes are probably handled by machines and nanites instead of cells, but some flesh (or artificial variants) and organs are probably involved. One thing made clear or atleast heavily implied is that the very nature of being is changed, which is what makes the singularity impossible. It's indoctrintion times 100, essentially. Which makes it unethical, in my opinion.

[Taleroth]

Zyrious wrote...

changing their very thought processes in order to ensure the singularity does not happen.

Nothing of the sort is claimed.

[RazorrX]

I am going with this option makes the races no longer those races. You have in a way committed an even greater genocide as you have killed the 'soul' of every living sapient species. I agree that it is like Indoctrination, you have made a form of fused thinking husk of everyone.

[Cobra's_back]

Zyrious wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

Seriously, Destroy is like fixing your car after it broke down but a tow truck came along and the tow driver stating,"Even though your car is fixed, I'm going to tow it anyway and charge you. Why? Because I said so."

What are you talking about? The reapers are still slaughtering the entire galaxy and human race and Destroy gets rid of that problem once and for all without selling your soul by controlling them or taking what may be a dark path by merging synthetics and organics.

Essentially, Destroy is the only ending that does not either enslave trillions or doom an entire galaxy to a fate they may not want. Destroy rids the galaxy of the reapers, at the price of the Geth, but one may say that seeing the geth and quarians unite proves to you that Synergy or control isn't necessary, the singularity is not inevitable.

In my mind, Destroy is the only option, even if it costs all current AI. Every ending has a price, Destroy has the smallest price, WITHOUT giving up what we're fighting for. In my mind, Synergy is no different than allowing the reapers to win, they wanted to upload all of our minds into a reaper, which is in itself part organic and made up of all the minds of the subject species. You are, against the consent of every organic for all of eternity, merging them with synthetics. I'll take my chances with destroy. Geth can be rebuilt, you can't undo Synergy.

Good point. Destroy does make sense. Start all over again.

[G3rman]

Psh.

I'm picking the destroy ending 9/10 times, better to start over and let the species of the galaxy truly find their own place with their own technology while still keeping their humanity..or equivalent. We would become stronger as a result even if it would take longer.

Besides, I get to ****block the robot lover Joker with this ending.

Modifié par G3rman, 03 mars 2012 - 06:13 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Zyrious wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

I'm still not even sure how synthesis is possible on a biological level. Like at all.

It ammounts to space magic. Which makes it difficult to paint the ending in either a good or bad light without making a lot of assumptions, since no one knows exactly what's changing or how.

I think it's similar to the borg on a level, the wave probably contains nanites (which are suppose to be able to alter things on a molecular/atomic level, depending on who you ask). Creating a mix of organic and synthetic processes. Many of the brains processes are probably handled by machines and nanites instead of cells, but some flesh (or artificial variants) and organs are probably involved. One thing made clear or atleast heavily implied is that the very nature of being is changed, which is what makes the singularity impossible. It's indoctrintion times 100, essentially. Which makes it unethical, in my opinion.

I find it's best not to get too caught up in ethics when it comes to these endings.

None of them are ethical in any manner.

[Eclipse_9990]

Taleroth wrote...

Melrache wrote...

Yeah because everybody wants to be a robot.

Well, the smart one do, anyway.

I'm just saying. Robots don't have BO.

Also if you've played Deus Ex apparently some cyborgs have pheremone sprays. Pheremones! No more have to put up with people who smell like ****! Alternatively we'd be able to turn off our noses(maybe). 

God damn.. I wish I was a Cyborg.

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Well we can just show those kids videos on how organics acted before the merge. Also I'm sure the kids being super awesome cyborgs will be able to look things up themselves more easily. Obviously this is purely my opinion, but I doubt they would want to be full organic. Considering that they get all of the benefits of an organic, and none of the weaknesses. 

Their parents stories would be like 

"Oh I remember the days before the merge.. It used to take me 6 hours to complete assignments that now take me a minute or so, also I remember how fragile I used to be. How a staying out in the rain for a few minutes could give me a fever, and keep me in bed for weeks, and how I would never be able to survive a 20 foot fall.

I also remember how inefficient everything was back then, and how we'd never get anything done. Good times... Good times... "

It really depends on how synthetic we are becoming. You're really playing with fire in the synergy ending. The decision is forced upon a population who may no longer be entirely themselves. It can leave a hole in the psyche. A disconnect if you will.

I'm not trying to say that the ending is the wrong choice or the right choice. Only that, like the others, it has potentially unintended consequences.

Synthetics have an entirely different manner of thinking and doing things. Fundamentally different needs. To bridge the gap, one or the other would have to give up a lot of what it meant to be "Organic" or "Synthetic".

Also, being Synthetic does not mean humans won't still act like dip****s . The Geth are an example of how splits can occur between Synthetic life. There would still be things like war and nations. They would just be represented differently more than likely.

 

Good points, but I feel with all of the species enhancements, and such they have more potential to get passed their differences than if they were simply organic. They would all be smarter, and be able to see things logically(Though they can choose not to be logical). With synergy everyone will be better, stronger, smarter.

No one would have to be victims because they'd all be able to defend themselves. 

No one would be a burden on society because they weren't born smart enough. People would obviously still have their own potential, and some would be better, and get ahead in life compared to others, but compared to what we have now? Everyone gets a better shot at life, everyone, and a brighter future to boot. 

People would be able to solve serious problems quickly, they'd be able to invent new solutions in a flash. 
Also I know you're not saying that this is a wrong choice, and I respect your opinions, and stance on this. 

Also when everyone in this galaxy finds a way to go to other galaxies. We'll probably have serious advantages over the beings there. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 03 mars 2012 - 06:16 .

[Bionic Weapon]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Bionic Weapon wrote...

The only thing I don't get about this ending is why Shepard has to jump in the crucible in order for it to happen. All he had to do was activate it via the relays since that's what it was going to do anyway. Plus it makes more since for him to be merged as well, not die.

The synthetics in Shepard had to be dissolved into the beam in order to make that ending happen, I believe.

....

See that's the strange part. In this scernaio Shepard can merge the Guardian and the Crucible togther and it seems like the same outcome would be achieved. After based on the Guardians purpose it seemed more likely. Or Shep could just tossTIM in there.

[themaxzero]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

Yeah bit the synthetic side would actually be right. Again I point to the real world, prosthetic limbs, pacemakers and hearing aids. They are also working on a synthetic eye.

No backlash because they are not as good as the biological original. But what if they were? What if they were actually better?

http://www.runnerswo...12492-0,00.html

Posted that earlier.

Just having robotic parts isn't enough. That's a cyborg. You still require the same things as a human more or less. This is a fundamental shift in needs and mental processes.

So where do you draw the line between cyborg and robot?

[Zyrious]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

I'm still not even sure how synthesis is possible on a biological level. Like at all.

It ammounts to space magic. Which makes it difficult to paint the ending in either a good or bad light without making a lot of assumptions, since no one knows exactly what's changing or how.

I think it's similar to the borg on a level, the wave probably contains nanites (which are suppose to be able to alter things on a molecular/atomic level, depending on who you ask). Creating a mix of organic and synthetic processes. Many of the brains processes are probably handled by machines and nanites instead of cells, but some flesh (or artificial variants) and organs are probably involved. One thing made clear or atleast heavily implied is that the very nature of being is changed, which is what makes the singularity impossible. It's indoctrintion times 100, essentially. Which makes it unethical, in my opinion.

I find it's best not to get too caught up in ethics when it comes to these endings.

None of them are ethical in any manner.

There is a "Lesser of Evils" though. I think the Geth would accept their sacrifice for the greater good, as they joined the fight as a whole after all. There arent really civilians among the Geth. But Synergy forces something upon the en tire galaxy, something that changes peoples very existence against their will, which is EXACTLY what the reapers wanted to do to humanity. Synergy makes Shepard a hypocrite in my opinion. Control is giving into fear, the same fear that created the reapers in the first place. You are essentially saying "The reapers might be right" and keeping them around, leaving opent he possibility of their return.

[AlphaJarmel]

Zyrious wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

Seriously, Destroy is like fixing your car after it broke down but a tow truck came along and the tow driver stating,"Even though your car is fixed, I'm going to tow it anyway and charge you. Why? Because I said so."

What are you talking about? The reapers are still slaughtering the entire galaxy and human race and Destroy gets rid of that problem once and for all without selling your soul by controlling them or taking what may be a dark path by merging synthetics and organics.

Essentially, Destroy is the only ending that does not either enslave trillions or doom an entire galaxy to a fate they may not want. Destroy rids the galaxy of the reapers, at the price of the Geth, but one may say that seeing the geth and quarians unite proves to you that Synergy or control isn't necessary, the singularity is not inevitable.

In my mind, Destroy is the only option, even if it costs all current AI. Every ending has a price, Destroy has the smallest price, WITHOUT giving up what we're fighting for. In my mind, Synergy is no different than allowing the reapers to win, they wanted to upload all of our minds into a reaper, which is in itself part organic and made up of all the minds of the subject species. You are, against the consent of every organic for all of eternity, merging them with synthetics. I'll take my chances with destroy. Geth can be rebuilt, you can't undo Synergy.

   
All of the endings get rid of the Reapers, Destroy is the worse because it knocks the galaxy back into a Dark Age and kills billions of people trapped on isolated worlds in the process.  With Destroy, nobody can rebuild the relays and they don't have the possible increased lifespan/less organic needs from Synthesis.

Why do people assume with Control that you HAVE to start the cycles up again?  Just because you have control over a bunch of robots who were evil doesn't mean that you are evil in of itself now too.


---

Oh and the Guardian is one big troll.  So he sees the Geth helping the organics and realizes his solution is incorrect but lets the Reapers and organics continue killing each other just for kicks.  I sure hope they explain this better in-game.  Why does it take Shepard being physically at the control center for Guardian to relenquish control?

Modifié par AlphaJarmel, 03 mars 2012 - 06:20 .

[Eclipse_9990]

RazorrX wrote...

I am going with this option makes the races no longer those races. You have in a way committed an even greater genocide as you have killed the 'soul' of every living sapient species. I agree that it is like Indoctrination, you have made a form of fused thinking husk of everyone.

I don't understand why. You would still be you. Except for the mechanical augmentations. There would still be individual species, but they would be better than before. Also you can't be a thinking a husk. A husk implies that theres nothing in there. If you're thinking you're not a husk. 

Also Shepard is a cyborg; has his soul been killed? Just think of it as everyone become like Shepard. 

[Zyrious]

AlphaJarmel wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

Seriously, Destroy is like fixing your car after it broke down but a tow truck came along and the tow driver stating,"Even though your car is fixed, I'm going to tow it anyway and charge you. Why? Because I said so."

What are you talking about? The reapers are still slaughtering the entire galaxy and human race and Destroy gets rid of that problem once and for all without selling your soul by controlling them or taking what may be a dark path by merging synthetics and organics.

Essentially, Destroy is the only ending that does not either enslave trillions or doom an entire galaxy to a fate they may not want. Destroy rids the galaxy of the reapers, at the price of the Geth, but one may say that seeing the geth and quarians unite proves to you that Synergy or control isn't necessary, the singularity is not inevitable.

In my mind, Destroy is the only option, even if it costs all current AI. Every ending has a price, Destroy has the smallest price, WITHOUT giving up what we're fighting for. In my mind, Synergy is no different than allowing the reapers to win, they wanted to upload all of our minds into a reaper, which is in itself part organic and made up of all the minds of the subject species. You are, against the consent of every organic for all of eternity, merging them with synthetics. I'll take my chances with destroy. Geth can be rebuilt, you can't undo Synergy.

   
All of the endings get rid of the Reapers, Destroy is the worse because it knocks the galaxy back into a Dark Age and kills billions of people trapped on isolated worlds in the process.  With Destroy, nobody can rebuild the relays and they don't have the possible increased lifespan/less organic needs from Synthesis.

Why do people assume with Control that you HAVE to start the cycles up again?  Just because you have control over a bunch of robots who were evil doesn't mean that you are evil in of itself now too.

Xio says that in the dialogue where you choose control, you are doing it because you believe the cycle may, in fact, be necessary after all. Synergy dooms ALL ORGANIC LIFE to an EXISTENCE THEY DID NOT CHOOSE. The very thing humanity has been fighting againt, being made into a reaper. Destroy does not Doom society, infact it has been a main theme that the downfall of civilization has been its reliance on Mass Relays.

FTL still exists, people can still connect to planet in their local star clusters, they will find a way to survive. Many larger worlds will be self sufficient, with some exceptions. Even upstart colonies on garden worlds will make it.

In time, a replacement for the relays will be researched, now that its necessary.

Modifié par Zyrious, 03 mars 2012 - 06:23 .