410 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If I play the game twice, I might want to deliver the same line two different ways. I can't do that with a voiced character. A voiced character severely limits the number of possible different PCs I can play.

Same 'problem' with silent dialogue. But in both cases, imagined responses can solve the issue.

This can work, as long as we get full text dialogue options.

But I am concerned the voice will change how the writers write dialogue and assume motivations.

I believe it does, and that it also dramatically reduces the developer's ability to tweak any existing dialogue, add new options or entire conversations, etc., later in the development cycle.  It's a lot easier and cheaper to change some text in a file than it is to bring in a VA (or several) to re-record something.

I think it also limits the types of responses available, because they are all tied to a specific tone they have chosen to support out of a universe of possible tones and motivations.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 15 mars 2012 - 03:43 .

[Elhanan]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

This can work, as long as we get full text dialogue options.

But I am concerned the voice will change how the writers write dialogue and assume motivations.

I believe it does, and that it also dramatically reduces the developer's ability to tweak any existing dialogue, add new options or entire conversations, etc., later in the development cycle.  It's a lot easier and cheaper to change some text in a file than it is to bring in a VA (or several) to re-record something.

I think it also limits the types of responses available, because they are all tied to a specific tone they have chosen to support out of a universe of possible tones and motivations.

Find that using my imagination works wonders instead....

[Sylvius the Mad]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

I think it also limits the types of responses available, because they are all tied to a specific tone they have chosen to support out of a universe of possible tones and motivations.

Elhanan is arguing that just a you can imagine the tone you like with a silent PC, you can do the same with a voiced PC.

And he has a point.  If the writers have always written with an assumed tone (and they say they have), then they shouldn't be writing any differently now.

But you're right about the development cycle.  A silent PC (and unvoiced dialogue generally) allows editing far later in development.  That allows QA more time to test the dialogue to see if it makes any sense.

[Pasquale1234]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Elhanan is arguing that just a you can imagine the tone you like with a silent PC, you can do the same with a voiced PC.

And he has a point.  If the writers have always written with an assumed tone (and they say they have), then they shouldn't be writing any differently now.

Tone, motivation, verbiage, etc. - sure.  I don't deny that you *can* imagine all of that, and that is exactly what I generally do... but it is much harder with a voiced, cinematic protag.

You need to purposely ignore anything the protag avatar does and says and then refocus your attention to the game when the NPC responds.  Not worth it to me when there is a much simpler solution that does not erect such barriers and require me to go through a continous cycle of connecting and then disconnecting from what is happening in the game.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 15 mars 2012 - 04:51 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

I agree, I would much rather just turn off the PC voice. I don't understand why that's not an option.

[Yrkoon]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I agree, I would much rather just turn off the PC voice. I don't understand why that's not an option.

You mean, like a toggle?

I imagine it's not an option because then  they'd have to  'turn off" pc  lip synch and facial expression... or at least Bioware would think they had to. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yrkoon wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I agree, I would much rather just turn off the PC voice. I don't understand why that's not an option.

You mean, like a toggle?

I imagine it's not an option because then  they'd have to  'turn off" pc  lip synch and facial expression... or at least Bioware would think they had to. 

And that's crazy, because they do already let us disable all of the voices at once, and that doesn't change the animations at all.  Why would one character's silence require difference accommodations from all characters' silence.

[Pasquale1234]

Yrkoon wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I agree, I would much rather just turn off the PC voice. I don't understand why that's not an option.

You mean, like a toggle?

I imagine it's not an option because then  they'd have to  'turn off" pc  lip synch and facial expression... or at least Bioware would think they had to. 

And auto-dialogue, banter that includes the PC, etc.

I would prefer that it all go away, but maybe that's too much to ask.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I want to lose the conversation interface completely. How NWN handled dialogue was the way to go. Don't change the UI - just drop the dialogue into the text box that's already on the screen. Do not remove the player's camera control.

Cinematic conversations are a bad idea. I'd like all dialogue to be ambient dialogue, and all PC lines should be chosen directly by the player (none of that auto-dialogue like in Legacy).

[Pasquale1234]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I want to lose the conversation interface completely. How NWN handled dialogue was the way to go. Don't change the UI - just drop the dialogue into the text box that's already on the screen. Do not remove the player's camera control.

Cinematic conversations are a bad idea. I'd like all dialogue to be ambient dialogue, and all PC lines should be chosen directly by the player (none of that auto-dialogue like in Legacy).

<3

Sounds great to me!

I also think this heavy use of cinematics takes away from its impact.  But that's a topic for a different thread.

[TheStrand221]

Not to take this off topic, but how do people feel about Deus Ex: HR's take on conversations / interrogations, where the player has to try to elicit information from an NPC or get a desired reaction? Possibly with the introduction of a speech skill mechanic as well? As it stood in DA:O having a high speech skill just opened a different path, often with a more advantageous result. In DX:HR certain conversations had several branching ends that dynamically changed play, and multiple paths through a conversation to those ends. They also did a decent job of providing limited paraphrases, with the intent or tone of the line indicated, and protagonist voice over as well.

I'm amazed that, despite how good some of the dialogue and writing in Bioware games can be, they've never taken it this far in the Dragon Age series. Conversations are just for exposition, with the occasional yes / no choice. There is no feeling, usually, of actively trying to convince, interrogate, or outwit an NPC in conversation.

[Morroian]

TheStrand221 wrote...

Not to take this off topic, but how do people feel about Deus Ex: HR's take on conversations / interrogations, where the player has to try to elicit information from an NPC or get a desired reaction? Possibly with the introduction of a speech skill mechanic as well? As it stood in DA:O having a high speech skill just opened a different path, often with a more advantageous result. In DX:HR certain conversations had several branching ends that dynamically changed play, and multiple paths through a conversation to those ends. They also did a decent job of providing limited paraphrases, with the intent or tone of the line indicated, and protagonist voice over as well.

Yep, a number of us have been saying ever since DEHR was released that those dialogue battles would be perfect in a Bioware game.

[jbrand2002uk]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I want to lose the conversation interface completely. How NWN handled dialogue was the way to go. Don't change the UI - just drop the dialogue into the text box that's already on the screen. Do not remove the player's camera control.

Cinematic conversations are a bad idea. I'd like all dialogue to be ambient dialogue, and all PC lines should be chosen directly by the player (none of that auto-dialogue like in Legacy).

Actually I liked Da2's ambient banter the way it was and I certainly have no desire for the level of control you describe it belongs back in the 1960's along with the beatles and STD's not in the 21st century but thats me 

[Sylvius the Mad]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Actually I liked Da2's ambient banter the way it was and I certainly have no desire for the level of control you describe it belongs back in the 1960's along with the beatles and STD's not in the 21st century but thats me 

Thus demonstrating once again that you have no interest in playing a detailed character.

Having the PC act without the player's input renders the player entirely superfluous.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Incidentally, you never answered my last question about how to select paraphrases. I suspect because there was no answer, and selecting paraphrases is always just guesswork.

[Yrkoon]

jbrand2002uk wrote...
Actually I liked Da2's ambient banter the way it was and I certainly have no desire for the level of control you describe it belongs back in the 1960's along with the beatles and STD's not in the 21st century but thats me 

Oh god, not this  "it's outdated!"  argument  again.


Claiming that  voiced  protagonists are  'more modern' than silent ones   because  they talk  on their own is  like saying that  a 3rd person camera view is more modern than 1st person  since you can  see what your toon looks like, instead of just imagining what they look like.

It's simply not true.    It's nothing more than a purely personal preference.  Stop pretending that yours is more 21st century.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 16 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[FenixWylde]

I can't play more than 5 minutes without shutting down the game..

[Elhanan]

FenixWylde wrote...

I can't play more than 5 minutes without shutting down the game..

Perhaps a new FX card is needed, or occasionally purging the cashe. While I am Techless, I do try to help from my experiences with this enjoyable game.

[Yrkoon]

No. A new Video card does not fix DA2. Tried it. All it did was make the  everything even more cartoonlike.

I'd suggest a clean uninstall.  lol

Modifié par Yrkoon, 16 mars 2012 - 12:52 .

[Elhanan]

Yrkoon wrote...

No. A new Video card does not fix DA2. Tried it. All it did was make the  everything even more cartoonlike.

I'd suggest a clean uninstall.  lol

Sounds more like operator error to me....

[DarkAmaranth1966]

The only time new FX card would help is if you card is failing, is a built in chipset or, fails to meet the requirements of the game (Note that even an under powerd card such as the built in Nvidia 9100 will run the game on low to medium settings.)

[Yrkoon]

Elhanan wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

No. A new Video card does not fix DA2. Tried it. All it did was make the everything even more cartoonlike.

I'd suggest a clean uninstall. lol

Sounds more like operator error to me....

Well, the actual purchase of the game definitely was.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 16 mars 2012 - 01:21 .

[In Exile]

n0na90 wrote...
And of course the ending. I've always felt a little mindblown and at the very least damn satisfied when finishing a bioware game (KOTOR 1, NWN HotU, BG 2 , DA Origins etc), and imo they really screwed up DA 2's ending.

Bioware is awesome though, I bet they'll pull their sh** together and make DA 3 the game DA 2 could've been

Yeah... Bioware has not been doing well on the "comprehensible ending that doesn't evicerate the heart of the series" part recently. I wouldn't exactly get my hopes up.

[ChaosAgentLoki]

I can see why many people would hate DA2, mainly due to the fact that it is so insanely different from DA:O, however, as a game in and of itself, it looks and sounds leaps and bounds above most games out there. Sure the recycled dungeons are an issue (the biggest one I can find with the game while having yet to play it), and the plot does not seem to be up to the same level as much of Bioware's other stuff, but it still looks amazing. I for one am very excited to be picking up a copy once I have finished Origins, especially after reading numerous articles on some Dragon Age fansites that discuss 2 in a way that makes it seem like an interesting addition to the series. After all, not every part of a series has to be perfect for the series in total to shine.

[Sylvius the Mad]

ChaosAgentLoki wrote...

I can see why many people would hate DA2, mainly due to the fact that it is so insanely different from DA:O, however, as a game in and of itself, it looks and sounds leaps and bounds above most games out there.

No game with this voice+paraphrase system is even vaguely good.