273 réponses à ce sujet

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Butcher_of_Torfan wrote...

The very nature of intelligence and black ops organizations like the CIA, GRU, Mossad, ect mean that you only ever hear about their failures. When they're successful, nobody ever knows that they were involved, or that they even did anything in the 1st place. Does this public perception make these organizations incompetent? Not by any means. Cerberus's very existence is proof that they're more competent than people make them out to be. Otherwise they would have been wiped out long ago. The advanced technology they possess didnt come from continued failure either.

As far as "if shepard didnt stop _____ disaster would have struck" arguments, if shepard hadnt been in a position to respond, cerberus commandos would have been sent in, or high ranking contacts in the alliance would have arranged N7 involvement. Either group is capable of accomplishing what shepard did on all of those side missions, albeit possibly with more casualties. Notice that if you never do said side missions, there is no repercussions later on. Its taken care of, one way or another.

Indeed. The idea that any one person is irreplaceable when you have a galaxy of people to swap in and out with is the epitome of ego. But, I guess that'd make for a less epic video game, so obviously we have to pretend Shepard is Jesus.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Meltemph wrote...
I think Harper is obsessed with survival of the species and not really concerned with everything else, because he is more obsessed then others because he actually hears them(and probably fears what would happen to him if he got to close to a reaper, I bet he would lose his free will rather quickly.

And if there is any one thing in the universe worth being obsessed about, that would be it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Redzephyr wrote...
Cerberus has never taken sufficient precautions in anything they have been demonstrated to do, up to and including security on the station that Shepard was rebuilt on, despite the fact that he/she is looked upon as "probably the best chance for humanity" and that aside is a project of immense financial cost. To say that they would not have taken adequate precautions (or even tried, as one is left wondering if there is such a thing as adequate precations against indoctrination) may be an assumption, but it is supported by virtually every piece of information regarding Cerberus and TIM.

Cerberuis security failing is an excellent example of bad writing, where things fail just because it's dramaticly convenient, and no one bothers with writing it in a way that makes sense.

Willson re-programing all the mechs? He's a friggin doctor, but apparently the Omnidiscipliniary Scientist trope is in full effect. Military-grade mechs with such a pi**-poor hacking defenses are a joke. They would never make it on the market wiht such a gaping flaw.

[RidersDX]

I'm really interested to find out what Cerberus' role exactly is in this game, specifics at least. Even if they are being indoctrinated, I want to know what their reasoning for working with the reapers would be. I have this feeling, at least I hope it's true, that there's something even bigger then simple indoctrination. But it doesn't explain how there are millions of people joining Cerberus to work with the machines that are going to MURDER them.

Ugh, Tuesday can't come any fasterrr.

[Raging Nug]

Tesclo wrote...

And I can't side with Cerberus why?

Same reason you can't side with the Reapers, or with Saren in the first game - it's not in Shepherd's realm of possibilities. Cerberus could be indoctrinated, or tryng to use the Reapers to make humans the uber-race, or the Illusive man could be trying to kill your crew.

[Arppis]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Arppis wrote...

They don't like aliens. And you can see that they have the Cerberus logo on everything. Plus they want to be in charge pretty badly. They do have the paralers for it.

They neither like nor hate aliens and they don't plaster their logo any more than the Alliance does.

Just saying about swastikas and Hitler mustaches. They have their own logo they can plaster around.

But they sure seem to have some anti-alien propaganda and attract people who are in that mindset.

I'm sure people who are involved in such activities wouldn't admit it either.

Just saying there are some paralels there.

Modifié par Arppis, 04 mars 2012 - 04:50 .

[CerberusSoldier]

Op its WTF is wrong with Bioware

[Lotion Soronarr]

Redzephyr wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Hindsight is 20/20 and as we've seen your security measures have no end. You want an army of mechs and an army of security officers armed to the teeth. You want a fleet in orbit around the station to ward off attacks and land reinforcements if necessary.

You are way over the top.

I actually argued against the mechs being there at all. Sorry.
Also maintained that a small, elite security detail that Cerberus is known to have the capacity to field would have been sufficient.
Never mentioned the word fleet, nor did I intend to imply it. A couple of frigates with a marine detail would have been solid -- not extensive, but capable of bringing firepower and infantry support if needed. Even one would have been better than none.

A couple of frigates?

Hmm...since when are warships cheap and easy to get? A couple of frigates is not a small force.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 mars 2012 - 05:01 .

[TheLostGenius]

Remember folks, Cereberus used to be Alliance Black Ops...

[Julia343]

Cerberus attracting the alien haters is part of the problem of the organization. IMO it's bad writing. The organization is portrayed as desperate. They hire people like Wilson to work on Lazarus. The guy is totally jealous that TIM is spending tons of money on Shepard, and that he's having to work for a much more intelligent woman like Miranda rather than the other way around, so the guy sabotaged the entire base, kills off all the staff just to get back at TIM? How did that nut job get hired? Who did the screening? You'd think Cerberus just said "Hey you want to join us? Sure, just sign on these docs right here. We're desperate for help. (and we're not telling you this but you'll be used in an experiment soon too)" Come on. That's simply ridiculous.

Next time give us a believable bad guy. Even the CSM's gang on the X-Files was more competent. Instead it's like Cerberus is a bunch of yahoos with "heil Hitler" tattoos on their necks like on the TV show "Justified". Nothing more American than that.

[Lapis Lazuli]

Butcher_of_Torfan wrote...

The very nature of intelligence and black ops organizations like the CIA, GRU, Mossad, ect mean that you only ever hear about their failures.

But as as readers and cinematic audiences we have the benefit of exposition from a 'god' pov.

[Bad King]

Julia343 wrote...

Cerberus attracting the alien haters is part of the problem of the organization. IMO it's bad writing. The organization is portrayed as desperate. They hire people like Wilson to work on Lazarus. The guy is totally jealous that TIM is spending tons of money on Shepard, and that he's having to work for a much more intelligent woman like Miranda rather than the other way around, so the guy sabotaged the entire base, kills off all the staff just to get back at TIM? How did that nut job get hired? Who did the screening? You'd think Cerberus just said "Hey you want to join us? Sure, just sign on these docs right here. We're desperate for help. (and we're not telling you this but you'll be used in an experiment soon too)" Come on. That's simply ridiculous.

Wilson was a smart guy, but he gradually became disillusioned and was offered a generous deal by the Shadow Broker.

[Butcher_of_Torfan]

Lapis Lazuli wrote...

Butcher_of_Torfan wrote...

The very nature of intelligence and black ops organizations like the CIA, GRU, Mossad, ect mean that you only ever hear about their failures.

But as as readers and cinematic audiences we have the benefit of exposition from a 'god' pov.

Well, there could have been some exposition in the form of EDI or a codex entry going into years of successful operations and research that Shepard wasnt a part of.   But him having access to that information would be highly unrealistic, and borderline immersion breaking for a few players, given the secret and compartmentalized nature of cerberus.  I always assumed that even the locked information in EDI's harddrives was incomplete, or even completely suspect.  Theres absolutely no reason that the computer on a warship would need any amount of information on cerberus funding, the actual number of cells and operatives, ect.  That stuck me, personaly, as exposition at best.  If its revealed to be inaccurate in ME3, some people will scream "retcon!!!!!"  but i wont be the least bit surprised.


As far as the cerberus logo being on everything, Like Saphra said, its a gameplay mechanic to color code everything to be easily recognized for players. Its like throwing giant purple bars above enemies with barriers, or making eclipse mercenaries wear bright yellow armor everywhere like a space version of the redcoats, when in reality you'd be wearing a camoflage pattern, or at least a coyote brown or olive drab.   Its more a mechanic of the medium, and wouldnt necessarily be present if ME existed  mainly as, say, a novel series.

Now can we completely disregard that?  Not really, thats venturing into headcannon territory.   But it is stated several times that Cerberus owns or has connections to many large front companies.  Just because the player and his "god persective" recognize the logo as cerberus, doesnt mean everyone else in universe does.  For all we know, the symbol on the SR2 and the uniforms could be the equivalent of the FedEx logo or Chevy bowtie, only recognized by a few individuals "in the know" like Jack, Aria, the Shadow Broker, ect, and potentialy being cerberus related.

Modifié par Butcher_of_Torfan, 04 mars 2012 - 09:02 .

[Butcher_of_Torfan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Cerberuis security failing is an excellent example of bad writing, where things fail just because it's dramaticly convenient, and no one bothers with writing it in a way that makes sense.

Willson re-programing all the mechs? He's a friggin doctor, but apparently the Omnidiscipliniary Scientist trope is in full effect. Military-grade mechs with such a pi**-poor hacking defenses are a joke. They would never make it on the market wiht such a gaping flaw.

Could Wilson re-program all the Mechs on his own, being just a doctor?  no.  Could he use the equivalent of a thumbdrive or CD to introduce a previously written program to the system that the Shadow Broker provided him?  Absolutely.   You wouldnt assume that whatever low to mid level technician introduced the Stuxnet virus to the iranian reactors sealed computer network  wrote an incredibly sophisticated cyber weapon.  It was previously prepared by a foriegn agency  using world class people with a long R&D time.  The fact that Wilson was shot, and frantic to escape the station shows clearly that while he may have started the whole event, he had little to no control over the mechs.   How long was the Shadowbroker's organization developing the cyberweapon that hacked all the mechs?   If it was done specificaly targeting the lazarus cell, upto 2 years.  Possibly much longer, if it was a pre-existing project of his, or if it was a stolen government project from one of the council races.

As far as AI hacking defense  in general being 'pi**-poor,"    who in the game do we see ever hacking mechs, other than the Shadow Broker's backed attack on lazarus?   Shepard, (if he's an engineer), Legion and tali'zorah, 3 individuals depicted as some of the most skilled and competent in the galaxy.   3 people(if you count the geth as people) and one of the largest, oldest,  most dangerous non-government agencies in the galaxy out of everyone we run across in story and combat being capable of doing it doesnt sound p*** poor to me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

That's actually a good defense of Cerberus right there Torfan.

[JaegerBane]

Elegana wrote...

Play ME1 and ME2 again. Recall Cerberus' history: they tend to screw up... a lot. Project Overlord, Subject Zero's experiments, Derelict Reaper, assassinating admirals and other higher ups, etc. After what Shepard did (assuming you blew up the Collector base), TIM is pretty pissed. Shepard screwed Cerberus over BIG TIME. So yeah. Cerberus is pissed off. They're going to screw things off again. And it's the perfect time to screw things up.

Indeed. Its even mentioned in Retribution that TIM has a habit of letting his own nutty ideas and hubris override his common sense.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

The 'BUTCHER OF TORFAN' ... you pissed off Major Kyle badly!

And it's been BiowEAr for two years.