273 réponses à ce sujet

[Legato 0021]

This isn't a spolier.... just put two and two together.

Look at Saren's eyes.
Then look at Illusive Man's Eyes.


I think it speaks for itself.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Doesn't take away the fact that he has Reaper tech in his face.

No Reaper tech in ME1 or ME2 or Retribution though.

So he was not indoctrinated all along nor was he destined to be.

Those eyes are reaper tech.

[Hunter of Legends]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Justicar wrote...

It's not like ANY Mass Effect game has a great plot

Yes, not even ME1. What ME1 had was Saren, Sovereign and Wrex. Plot was cliche.

Then again, most video game plots can be summed up with: You good, this guy bad. Go kill.

That's any plot.

Critiqueing plot is like complaining about communism; you're several decades too late.

[Blastback]

How about we wait to see what explanation is given in the game before we jump to to many conclusins.

[Legato 0021]

Also, if you recall in Mass Effect 1 Saren was not fully indoced because it made him useless which means he had free will to some extent.

Mass Effect 2 Illusive Man has the same type of eyes Saren had with a slightly difference appearance. *IF* Illusive Man turns out to be indoced (I already know that answer) he still had some array of free will, thus he knew Shepeard was the only one who could stop Reapers and the only one who could do anything about Collectors. Even if he is indoced in ME2 he wouldn't know it and would make decisions like that until the whispers slowly start trying to convince him that Shepard may be the reasons they Reapers are even attacking and thus making him order all his soldiers to try and stop Shep in Mass Effect 3.

All just a theory mind you.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Says the angry Cerberus fan.

Not an angry Cerberus, just a sharp critic and someone with the good sense to recognize bad writing.

Yes to the first, not so yes on the second.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Redzephyr wrote...

If you think about a certain plot, and compare the organisation's past history for glaring, horrible failures resulting in terrible things for their operatives, it offers a pretty good idea of what's happened.

No, it really doesn't. It doesn't because you are grossly exaggerating their history and track record.

If they were this stupid they'd have been wiped out long ago.

Some empires/dynasties lasted decades or centuries and were quite stupid.

Just ask the Spanish.

[Redzephyr]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Sure, but maybe fewer of them or maybe different precuations would have been taken. We'll never know.

Cerberus has never taken sufficient precautions in anything they have been demonstrated to do, up to and including security on the station that Shepard was rebuilt on, despite the fact that he/she is looked upon as "probably the best chance for humanity" and that aside is a project of immense financial cost. To say that they would not have taken adequate precautions (or even tried, as one is left wondering if there is such a thing as adequate precations against indoctrination) may be an assumption, but it is supported by virtually every piece of information regarding Cerberus and TIM.

Saphra Deden wrote... 
Point being?

That your statement of "they checked to make sure it was dead" isn't really a very good argument to "this is a bad idea".

Saphra Deden wrote... 
Another assumption, but one thing that is true. They are expendable. Of-course they are. Cerberus doesn't exist to safeguard Cerberus; it exists to safeguard humanity. That means sometimes Cerberus folks need to be put in harms way and even sacrificed.

Maybe so (if we assume that Cerberus is as well-intentioned as they say and you believe they are) but at some point one is just wasting resources. An investment that does not pay off is a waste of time, effort, and resources, and so it is always prudent to ensure that one's investments are well-protected and as secure as possible.

This has never, ever been the case with Cerberus.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

You hire a pest controller who stinks up your house and ends up killing ZERO bugs.

That's not what happened.

The Alliance was responsible for these people too.

This would be like me hiring a pest controller to cleanse your house. Then they do a bad job and you find out I never actually looked at their credentials.

We don't know enough about the corporation or alliance actions in theat scenario to make that judgement.

Modifié par Hunter of Legends, 03 mars 2012 - 06:27 .

[Jynthor]

Redzephyr wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Redzephyr wrote...

If you think about a certain plot, and compare the organisation's past history for glaring, horrible failures resulting in terrible things for their operatives, it offers a pretty good idea of what's happened.

No, it really doesn't. It doesn't because you are grossly exaggerating their history and track record.

If they were this stupid they'd have been wiped out long ago.

Seriously? Yeah, let's just send a bunch of folks into this derelict Reaper. What's the worst that could happen?

What's that? They got indoctrinated? Oh, my, I guess I must have forgotten to hit send on that warning memo. Whoops.

Cerberus has a long history of aggressive, arrogant, reckless tactics and experiments, and The Illusive Man has demonstrated time and again that he is willing to accept catastrophic losses in capital and personnel in the pursuit of experiments that tend to be dubious ideas at best and are often outright bad.

Think back to the events of Retribution. Think back to Cerberus' given track record. Play the demo and ask yourself why the Nemesis and Phantom units seem a little bit less than human.

Maybe -- just maybe -- another terrible experiment went wrong.

He tested the tech on grayson because they needed to know the Reaper's  weaknesses, Grayson would never even have escaped if it wasn't for Kahlee Sanders, Anderson and the Turians. TIM wouldn't implant his people with tech which would have indoctrinated them.

Of course, now I'm talking about a non-indoctrinated TIM, which he should be, but with BioWare, you never know.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Some empires/dynasties lasted decades or centuries and were quite stupid.

Just ask the Spanish.

No, stupid people don't build Empires in the first place.

I beg to differ.

[Redzephyr]

Jynthor wrote...
He tested the tech on grayson because they needed to know the Reaper's  weaknesses, Grayson would never even have escaped if it wasn't for Kahlee Sanders, Anderson and the Turians. TIM wouldn't implant his people with tech which would have indoctrinated them.

Of course, now I'm talking about a non-indoctrinated TIM, which he should be, but with BioWare, you never know.

Well, I suppose avoiding direct spoilers is for squares, heh.

TIM wouldn't implant his people with tech that would indoctrinate them under ideal circumstances, maybe. The fact that he's mucking with this technology to begin with makes one wonder as to his sensibilities... am I really the only one here who looked at that entire scenario and came up with a hundred ways it could go catastrophically wrong? Sanders and company or no, there were so many things that could go awry.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

We don't know enough about the corporation or alliance actions in theat scenario to make that judgement.

You don't even make an effort, do you?

We aren't told enough to know who is at fault.

It could be the alliance, for if they knew the companies faults they shouldn't have hired them. If it was in fact just an error or oversight by the company it isn't the Alliance fault.

[Jynthor]

Redzephyr wrote...

Jynthor wrote...
He tested the tech on grayson because they needed to know the Reaper's  weaknesses, Grayson would never even have escaped if it wasn't for Kahlee Sanders, Anderson and the Turians. TIM wouldn't implant his people with tech which would have indoctrinated them.

Of course, now I'm talking about a non-indoctrinated TIM, which he should be, but with BioWare, you never know.

Well, I suppose avoiding direct spoilers is for squares, heh.

TIM wouldn't implant his people with tech that would indoctrinate them under ideal circumstances, maybe. The fact that he's mucking with this technology to begin with makes one wonder as to his sensibilities... am I really the only one here who looked at that entire scenario and came up with a hundred ways it could go catastrophically wrong? Sanders and company or no, there were so many things that could go awry.

And what would these "ideal circustances" be? I can't think of any situation in which an army of Reaper indoctrinated Soldiers would be useful. Sure you can lock them up and then dump them in a place with people you want dead, but that doesn't sound that practical to me.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

I beg to differ.

Beg all you want. What you are suggesting preposterous.

I suppose you also think scrawny men can lift heavier weights than man with more muscle? Is that right?

You don't need to be a genius to build a following.

Charisma does wonders to a leaders followers.

[Redzephyr]

Saphra Deden wrote...
If you're going to blame Cerberus when they are hampered by outside interference than you have to apply that to everyone else too.

I'm going to blame Cerberus for time and again showing a complete lack of regard for even basic security and containment protocols despite the intensely dangerous and often potentially galaxy-threatening experiments they dabble in. While everyone else who has toyed with the fabled and little-described 'Reaper artifacts' that we see in various side missions throughout the games has met similar fates, said groups do not show the bull-headedness that Cerberus does in simply trying again without changing the approach that failed the first time.

Saphra Deden wrote... 
Actually it isn't my statement; it is taken from the game.

You know what I think is a worse idea? Not doing anything. I'm guessing you were against using EDI, the Thanix, and the IFF.

So tell me, how did you beat ME2?

Yes, it's taken from the game, and you're using it to justify Cerberus' position. In the game it was still a poor assumption to make and the research team was unsurprisingly wiped out because of it.

Sure, doing nothing is a poor plan. Know what else is a poor plan? Going about one's experiments and not so much as attempting the proper precautions to ensure that they don't fail and thus amount to the same zero value that doing nothing would have. Although doing nothing would've strained less upon their resources, realistically.

I'm not honestly sure why you're so hot-to-trot about Cerberus despite the fact that they've always been depicted as arrogant, xenophobic butchers with a penchant for mad science and a stunning disregard for even the humanity they claim to champion.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

You don't need to be a genius to build a following.

No, but you do to build an empire. Much less keep it together for any length of time.

Not really, empires build themselves. A single man alone cannot make an empire; a single man cannot keep it together.

Some of the greatest leaders could not keep their empires together because the empire itself didn't will it.