273 réponses à ce sujet

[Redzephyr]

Jynthor wrote...
And what would these "ideal circustances" be? I can't think of any situation in which an army of Reaper indoctrinated Soldiers would be useful. Sure you can lock them up and then dump them in a place with people you want dead, but that doesn't sound that practical to me.

It's a good idea in theory if you believe that you've got the means to control the technology you're using. I'm not saying that TIM set out with the goal of indoctrinating his minions, simply that he was mucking with things that have always been demonstrated to indoctrinate if given the chance. Once that's happened to some, making it happen to the others is par for the course with almost every case of indoctrination we've seen.

[Bawseee]

 *SPOILER ALERT*












Get ready for the big surprise. 

[Redzephyr]

Saphra Deden wrote...
You should think long and hard about this statement. Though if you ask nicely I might help you to analyze it.

Nah, I think I'm good. Thanks, though.

They didn't make an assumption.

Really? They didn't assume that since it was dead it couldn't indoctrinate them?

Yeah. They did.

Right, so what is your plan?

I'm waiting.

A little more caution, perhaps? A little less blatant disregard for the people conducting your research and thusly for the value of the research itself? Again, dead researchers provide you with no benefits other than the benefit of knowing that maybe you should approach the problem from another angle -- a benefit that Cerberus has ignored repeatedly.

I note that you've started to cut off larger portions of my posts. Still curious as to what it is you see in Cerberus.

Modifié par Redzephyr, 03 mars 2012 - 06:54 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Which leads us back to the question of where Cerberus got the money and resources to develop, mass produce, and implant that tech. Then we have questions of where they got the time to do this, where they got all the weapons and armor, and all the ships.

Then we ask where having the Illusive Man be indoctrinated actually benefits the story at all, or his role as a character.

It doesn't. He is interesting when he is morally ambiguous, not when he's just a puppet for the Reapers.

Saren being a puppet for the Reapers didn't make him interesting. What made him interesting was his rationalization for what he did, which needn't have anything to do with indoctrination.

I find the rational mind trying to reason with indoctrination interesting.

How does it twist a sane, logical person into doing what it wants? I like that sort of "mind control" angle.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Redzephyr wrote...
.

I note that you've started to cut off larger portions of my posts. Still curious as to what it is you see in Cerberus.

I suggest you read my sig before engaging in a debate with certain individuals.

[Meltemph]

I dont think Harper is indoctrinated...completely. I think when he got hit by that artifact he only got PART of it(it glitched for lack of a better word, it is technology after all not space magic), which made him able to communicate with the reapers to some extent and the reapers with him. That said, I do believe he has complete free will and everything he is doing is based off his experiences with Desolas.

I think the reason he is so interested in indoctrination is he is trying to find a way to break it and the only way to do that is to indoctrinate people. I could very easily see him studying a reaper artifact(much like the one the turians were messing with) trying to "manipulate it" to fight against the reapers and it blew up in his face.

I think Harper is obsessed with survival of the species and not really concerned with everything else, because he is more obsessed then others because he actually hears them(and probably fears what would happen to him if he got to close to a reaper, I bet he would lose his free will rather quickly.

I think his obsessions are the reason he seems to disregard precautions and security to a large extent.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, they didn't. They analyzed it and determined to the best of their ability that there was no threat. They didn't just look at the dead Reaper and say "there is no threat".

An educated guess is still a guess, at the end of the day an experts prediction is just as good as anyone elses.

[Hyrist]

I've the perfect explination.

Cerberus is ticked off because they did not get the ending they wanted. So they decided to side with the hatred machines and troll the galaxy. That way, they can take over and make everything just the way they want and damn the rest.

Little do they know that they're just being used by the hate machines to ruin another development with excellent potential.

- wait, what were we talking about agian?

Modifié par Hyrist, 03 mars 2012 - 07:05 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

An educated guess is still a guess, at the end of the day an experts prediction is just as good as anyone elses.

Reeaaallly?

Wow, that's a new one.

I suppose you have no need of say... doctors then. Or car mechanics.

Diagnostic machines an x-rays leave little room for guessing.

But I meant it more or less like weathermen telling me what the weather is going to be.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 03 mars 2012 - 07:09 .

[Redzephyr]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Well seeing as an army of security mechs, dozens of armed security officers, and various levels of clearance to restrict access apparently doesn't meet your standards for "basic" security, then I'm curious as to what does.

An army of security mechs turned on their owners, armed security officers that couldn't stop them, and levels of clearance that are of little value against either hacking efforts or plain old firepower? Considering the value placed in Shepard, this never should have happened. Period.

I won't bother going into other Ceberus debacles, where the corpses you find aren't even wearing hardsuits.

No, they didn't. They analyzed it and determined to the best of their ability that there was no threat. They didn't just look at the dead Reaper and say "there is no threat". Instead they studied it to see that it had no activity even on a microscopic level and then moved in to get to work.

There's always going to be risk, but it is only reckless if you don't take reasonable precautions.

And there wasn't a plan in place in case maybe, just maybe Reaper artifacts ended up doing what they have done at nearly every available opportunity? No off-Reaper personnel or system watching for this? Nothing? It was a rush job with the disregard for life wholly characteristic of Cerberus.

THAT IS NOT A PLAN.

TELL ME WHAT YOU WOULD DO.

No, it's not a plan. My issue with Cerberus and its experiments (morality aside) is that they fail over and over and over again, and often for the exact same reasons. Whether they feel these experiments are vital to the security of the human race (and that's debatable) is not really the point -- the fact that they continue to approach the problems from the same angles is.

When you encounter a brick wall, there is no way to skirt around it, and your first plan of slamming your head into it yields nothing but some blood and a headache, your second plan probably shouldn't be hitting your head against it another time.

I'm still waiting to hear why you're so pro-Cerberus.

[Redzephyr]

Meltemph wrote...

I dont think Harper is indoctrinated...completely. I think when he got hit by that artifact he only got PART of it(it glitched for lack of a better word, it is technology after all not space magic), which made him able to communicate with the reapers to some extent and the reapers with him. That said, I do believe he has complete free will and everything he is doing is based off his experiences with Desolas.

I think the reason he is so interested in indoctrination is he is trying to find a way to break it and the only way to do that is to indoctrinate people. I could very easily see him studying a reaper artifact(much like the one the turians were messing with) trying to "manipulate it" to fight against the reapers and it blew up in his face.

I think Harper is obsessed with survival of the species and not really concerned with everything else, because he is more obsessed then others because he actually hears them(and probably fears what would happen to him if he got to close to a reaper, I bet he would lose his free will rather quickly.

I think his obsessions are the reason he seems to disregard precautions and security to a large extent.

I could get behind this, and the bolded bit is pretty much what I'm assuming has happened. Maybe I'm wrong... don't know. We'll find out soon enough.

The fact that Cerberus is attempting to foil Shepard in the one mission we're privy to involving them -- and the Illusive Man is not that petty to be doing this over the Collector base... I hope -- and the fact that the Nemesis and Phantom seem to essentially be cyborgs leaves me concluding as I do. Again, maybe I'm wrong.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Redzephyr wrote...

An army of security mechs turned on their owners, armed security officers that couldn't stop them, and levels of clearance that are of little value against either hacking efforts or plain old firepower? Considering the value placed in Shepard, this never should have happened. Period.

Yeah, let's totally ignore the mole who was being supported by one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy with a score to settle. That's reasonable. You are a reasonable guy.

So again, if Lazarus didn't even have "basic" security standards then what does?

And there wasn't a plan in place in case maybe,

Except there clearly was. Otherwise the indoctrinated operatives would have escaped from the facility and been running rampant around the galaxy trying to bring about the return of the Reapers. You know, kind of like what happened with that Alliance operation in Arrival?

No, it's not a plan.

Then give me one.

I'm still waiting.

Nice use of pick an argument/ what to respond to

[Redzephyr]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Yeah, let's totally ignore the mole who was being supported by one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy with a score to settle. That's reasonable. You are a reasonable guy.

So again, if Lazarus didn't even have "basic" security standards then what does?

Security forces potent enough to stop the mechs would have made sense. Or, you know, not relying on the mechs in a universe where tech-hacking is widespread. For low-risk environments they make sense and are cheaper than professional soldiers. This was not a low-risk environment.

Except there clearly was. Otherwise the indoctrinated operatives would have escaped from the facility and been running rampant around the galaxy trying to bring about the return of the Reapers. You know, kind of like what happened with that Alliance operation in Arrival?

I like that you brought up the Alliance operatives in Arrival. The ones that had access to shuttles that we see them use at the end of that mission. The ones that were all still hanging around their base, waiting for the Reapers to come.

Then give me one.

I'm still waiting.

And I'm still waiting on why you're a Cerberus groupie. It'd also be swell if you'd stop playing scrapbook with the bits of my replies that you can easily use and ignoring the rest.

[Redzephyr]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Right, and then another security force prepared to fight that security force, and then another security force to fight that one, and so on and so on...

Nope, just the one. Hardsuits, assault rifles, access to heavier weapons, proper security protocols, regular check-ins, good command and control structure. Preferably off-station support in the form of warships that we know Cerberus has access to. Provides a measure of reinforcements and also some defense against outside assault.

$10 bucks says we never hear any mention of them in ME3.

I'll take this as you conceding this point. The facility was clearly quarantined/locked-down.

I didn't concede the point at all -- you missed it.

More clearly: The indoctrinated Alliance operatives had access to a means of escape from the asteroid after they were indoctrinated. They did not leave the asteroid. Talk of Cerberus folks in an identical situation being "locked-down" is thusly not so much a given as you seem to assume it is.

My personal feelings on Cerberus are not really relevant to the argument we are having. However your refusal to provide an adequate alternative to studying Reaper tech is.

I have not ignored anything your posts so far except the repeated questions about how I feel about Cerberus for the reason I just stated. Otherwise I've adressed everything.

It's totally relevant. You've got blinders on to the fact that they're arrogant, reckless, and show a constant disregard for themselves and everyone (every human, that is -- aliens are naturally expendable and that's expected) around them. I want to understand what it is you see in them that I've apparently missed.

Once more: while studying Reaper tech may be necessary, studying it in the same way that failed the first x number of times is not necessary, and is both wasteful and insane.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

I find the rational mind trying to reason with indoctrination interesting.

How does it twist a sane, logical person into doing what it wants? I like that sort of "mind control" angle.

Then you should read Retribution. What you want you won't get from one of the games because you can't have an internal monologue with an indoctrinated person in a game like you can in a novel.

TIM being indoctrinated might be interesting... in a novel in which we are again privvy to his inner thoughts. Not so much in a game where all we get is, "I'm not indoctrinated, Shepard!"

"Yes you are!"

"No I'm not!"

Agreed; I was simply adding to the conversation that I find the individual fighting the hive mind fascinating.

[Redzephyr]

Saphra Deden wrote...
They had all of those things.

Yeah? Where? Where were the ships? Where were the corpses of actual soldiers? There weren't any of any of those things.

They did too leave the asteroid or did you forget about all those shuttles taking off at the end?

... are you trying to troll me? Serious question.

They didn't leave until they were forced to by the fact that the station was going to explode with the rest of the system. If you want to compare the two, let's.

In an identical situation, the Cerberus research team would have stuck around on the derelict Reaper not because they were contained by other Cerberus forces, but because nothing was giving them the inclination to leave. If the Reaper had suddenly been given thrusters and shot at a nearby star, they would have said, "Oh, dear. Time to leave, boys." and then hopped onto their shuttles and left.

Oh, I'm the one with the blinders huh?

Yup. Do I really need to come up with a list of examples of failed Cerberus experiments that were disastrous to everyone involved in them and could have potentially spread beyond the location they took place in? The derelict Reaper is actually a pretty tame screw-up in comparison to some of them. 

Modifié par Redzephyr, 03 mars 2012 - 08:01 .