273 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

Hmm, a plan. Well, let's see, if Cerberus has access to intel via the Alliance they'll be aware of Shepard's reports from Virmire.

So, here's a Reaper. There's a chance of indoctrination, since Reapers are largely an Unknown. Set up three teams. Have them rotate in timed intervals based on the information from Virmire. The team coming "off duty" is put into observation for signs of indoctrination. The teams off-site are far away from the Reaper. Teams on the Reaper or in observation are not allowed weapons.

At the sign of ANY indoctrination, all teams wrap up and leave, keeping exposed members under quarantine. Second tri-group moves in and, having monitored the progress of the first three teams, starts from there.

That's a broad outline of how I'd study any Reaper or Reaper tech.

[Julia343]

If it wasn't for Miranda, Lazarus would have failed.

[Redzephyr]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Hmm, a plan. Well, let's see, if Cerberus has access to intel via the Alliance they'll be aware of Shepard's reports from Virmire.

So, here's a Reaper. There's a chance of indoctrination, since Reapers are largely an Unknown. Set up three teams. Have them rotate in timed intervals based on the information from Virmire. The team coming "off duty" is put into observation for signs of indoctrination. The teams off-site are far away from the Reaper. Teams on the Reaper or in observation are not allowed weapons.

At the sign of ANY indoctrination, all teams wrap up and leave, keeping exposed members under quarantine. Second tri-group moves in and, having monitored the progress of the first three teams, starts from there.

That's a broad outline of how I'd study any Reaper or Reaper tech.

And this would be solid and make good, logical sense. Cheers.

[Meltemph]

Nope, just the one. Hardsuits, assault rifles, access to heavier weapons, proper security protocols, regular check-ins, good command and control structure. Preferably off-station support in the form of warships that we know Cerberus has access to. Provides a measure of reinforcements and also some defense against outside assault.

I think a lot of his "lack of security" had a lot to do with him trying to keep everything under wraps. The less people are involved the better.

[Redzephyr]

Meltemph wrote...

Nope, just the one. Hardsuits, assault rifles, access to heavier weapons, proper security protocols, regular check-ins, good command and control structure. Preferably off-station support in the form of warships that we know Cerberus has access to. Provides a measure of reinforcements and also some defense against outside assault.

I think a lot of his "lack of security" had a lot to do with him trying to keep everything under wraps. The less people are involved the better.

Maybe, but even a relatively small, elite security detail (think back to the troops that hit the Idenna) could've defended the station. While keeping things under-wraps is pretty par for the course with Cerberus (to an extent) the Illusive Man was also pretty up on Shepard and he/she being one of if not the best hope anyone stood at stopping the threat. Protecting that investment only makes sense, and justifies the slightly increased chance of discovery.

Cerberus has access to crack troops and top-of-the-line equipment and military hardware. Save for some defense turrets around their research stations, they never tend to utilise them in a defensive posture.

[DJBare]

Legato 0021 wrote...

This isn't a spolier.... just put two and two together.

Look at Saren's eyes.
Then look at Illusive Man's Eyes.


I think it speaks for itself.

I'm still going to blow his head off with a shotty(I cannot wait!), I used up my paragon quota on Saren, it seems to me TIM "foolishly" thought he could get control of reaper tech, retribution shows what a fool he is and my Shepard don't suffer fools gladly.

[Meltemph]

An army of mechs and probably dozens of security officers including Jacob Taylor, one of the best soldiers Cerberus has, is a "lack of security".

Considering how paranoid Harper normally is... More human bodies would have been "safer" and at least a extra ship in orbit, but I think what he did was fine in terms of security personally.

I think he keeps it very small with very few people knowing about it on purpose to make sure thei information was completely in his control. It made sense trying to draw the least amount of attention to the area as possible. Also, I dont think Harper CARES it bad things happen as long as he either learns more about what he was researching or if in the long runs things go the way he wants. So regardless if crap happens because you think he needs more/less security is irrelevant, at least to TIM because all he cares about is results/knowledge.

[Hyrist]

Puppet for the reapers or not - the Illusive man remains morally ambiguous throughout.

*checks what section he is in* - General Discussion.

Can't say more than that, unfortunately. Not in this wing of the forums.

[Redzephyr]

Here goes.

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...
What good would ships have been? You pick up that grenade launcher off of a dead soldier. Were there people in hardsuits? Maybe, we'll never know. You only saw a small bit of a station. It wouldn't have mattered much anyway.

You are nitpicking in your desperation.

I never said security there was perfect, but it was certainly extensive. You said it wasn't even basic.
[/quote]
Ships can land troops, and troops can put down mechs. I saw a small bit of the station, and so did you. Considering that these things have almost never been demonstrated in any Cerberus installation where they have interests, I can assume my position more safely than you can. We're both nitpicking, but at least I'll admit it.


[quote]
No, the reason the Arrival operatives stayed on the station was because they were awaiting the arrival of the Reapers. They had no reason to leave.

The people on the derelict Reaper would have had any number of reasons to leave. Point is, as far as we know they had no means to leave. The place was left isolated.

Point is, there was never any threat to anyone outside the base.
[/quote] It's never covered whether they can or could have left the Reaper, and we are both making assumptions. The Alliance folks never left their station because they were waiting. There's no reason or evidence to support conclusively that the Cerberus researchers were any different at all.

[quote]
Uh no, isn't that your job?

You are a hypocrite, and I hate hypocrites.

To be nice, I'm going to help you out here.[/quote]
Your kindness is stunning.

[quote]
Overlord was nearly a disaster for everyone (nearly). Even in that case the principles behidn the experiment were proven valid. The geth can be controlled.[/quote]
The experiment was proven valid, and if not for the timely intervention of Shepard a crippling AI malady would've gotten off-planet and likely wreaked havoc. Reckless.

[quote]
The rachni experiment was a disaster. Teltin was a disaster too, but in that case at least something was learned and in Jack something was even gained. [/quote] Arrogant and reckless for the former. Horrendous and a defilement of the humanity they claim to protect upon its most vulnerable members for the latter.

[quote]
Otherwise, they've done just fine. The derelcit Reaper team, despite the losses, made the completion of the suicide mission possible.

The same can be said for the Lazarus team.[/quote]
Both could have served their purpose better and with less cost to manpower and material with proper precautions and security measures.

[quote]
In Retribution, even when faced with an enemy that had superior numbers, training, and firepower, Cerberus managed to wipe out a third of the attacking force. Probably more like half when you consider the Illusive Man's retaliation.[/quote] Exactly why I'm wondering why Cerberus troops are not more present in defensive postures in all of their locations. They are competent. 

[quote]
In ME1, the bases on Binthu and Nepheron were doing fine until Shepard kicked in the door. You know, that same badass who fought an entire army of geth and a Reaper, and the Collectors, and countless other foes.[/quote]
Yup, granted. One of the few places where Cerberus is shown employing proper security forces. Funny how that works... it takes the hero of the story to make things go wrong when there's trained soldiers keeping an eye on things.

[quote]
The Shadow Broker? He tried to take down Cerberus and for decades nobody could get rid of him. However Cerberus did, they got a lead on him and they passed it on to Liara and she took him out. Shadow Broker loses, Cerberus wins.[/quote]
Cerberus provided the information, they did not do the dirty work. Could they have? Probably, yes. Again, their security forces are more than competent when they are used.

[quote]
The Collectors? They were untouchable too... until Cerberus took an interest in them. A couple of weeks or months and they were no more. Totally outmaneuvered and defeated thanks to Cerberus money, weapons, personnel, and planning.[/quote]
Also involving the hero of the storyline, who is shown to be a very capable force multiplier. Could Cerberus have done it themselves? Maybe. They didn't.

[quote]
Trident was conquered by Cerberus for human interests.
[/quote] Human interests that included a quote "torture den".

Humanity first, no matter the cost, right?

[omgBAMF]

 Saphra sounds like a bitter TIM fan.  FACT: TIM (Jack Harper) came into brief contact with a reaper relic while on Palaven, trying to save his friend Ben (which he failed to do - Ben became a husk).  Prior to this encounter, you can see he looks like any normal human.  After the contact, you can see that something has changed (namely his eyes).

IDC what you guys want to believe, or how you believe what you do, the proof is right there.  You guys should read the comics/novels, even if you think the stories are crap.  You might learn something...

(no idea how to insert image here, so click this)

[Redzephyr]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Right. Keep bringing more and more people in on the project.

Let's just keep ignoring the fact that the station was fine until one of its highest ranking officers turned on it. An officer on the payroll of one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy who was running the biggest information network in the galaxy.

This is not important.

Considering the manpower and equipment at the organisation's command, even running a tight ship they could have had a more than capable security detail that could've prevented the entire disaster. That officer can do whatever he wants, but when those turned mechs run into a specialised security force that we all know Cerberus has, it's not really going to matter.

What if things had gone sideways before Shepard was completed? The station wouldn't be an acceptable loss then, and it's only through good fortune and convenience to the plot that things happened when they did.

You protect your investments. When that investment happens to be "our best hope for stopping the Reapers" you don't take chances. It is folly.

[Meltemph]

Right. Keep bringing more and more people in on the project.

Huh? Did you read all my post or are you just trying to "win an argument? I agree with his less security for information control, I was just making the point that he could have been more secure, but he would have had to be louder to do so.

Let's just keep ignoring the fact that the station was fine until one of its highest ranking officers turned on it.

Dont have enough back story on him to know whether he was trusted or not. Also, I dont believe that Miranda anexpert on reading people couldnt have seen issues with him, I just think they decided to take the risk, imo. I cant see, "trust" in people, being one of TIMs greatest strengths.

An officer on the payroll of one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy who was running the biggest information network in the galaxy.

This is not important.

I don't get the point to this.

IDC what you guys want to believe, or how you believe what you do, the proof is right there. You guys should read the comics/novels, even if you think the stories are crap. You might learn something...

I think you may need to be the one to read it again? Just because it has traits of a horse doesn't mean it is one, it could very easily be a zebra. You can see through out when Harper was dealing with Desolace and the other Turians he was very much in control of himself and even was trying to STOP the ones who were really under control of the reapers. To the point where Desolace(someone under the control of the reapers by my estimation) couldn't understand how Harper was different, which to me adds credence to him not being indoctrinated to the poitn of losing his free will.

Also I think him not telling us about the collector trap was another indication that he is not controlled by the reapers. I think he didn't tell Shep about it cause couldnt without the reapers knowing as well since it seems he can communicate with the reapers and vise versa on some level. You cant compare Harper to ANY other indoctrinated person(outside of "the eyes") we dont know WHAT Harper is exactly after the interaction with the artifact and to assume it is as simple as "controlled by the reapers" is ignoring everything surrounding it, imo.

Modifié par Meltemph, 03 mars 2012 - 08:43 .

[omgBAMF]

Saphra Deden wrote...

omgBAMF wrote...

 Saphra sounds like a bitter TIM fan.  FACT: TIM (Jack Harper) came into brief contact with a reaper relic while on Palaven, trying to save his friend Ben (which he failed to do - Ben became a husk).  Prior to this encounter, you can see he looks like any normal human.  After the contact, you can see that something has changed (namely his eyes).

IDC what you guys want to believe, or how you believe what you do, the proof is right there.  You guys should read the comics/novels, even if you think the stories are crap.  You might learn something...

(no idea how to insert image here, so click this)

Sorry I don't read comic books, I'm not a 12 year-old.

Well too bad for you... you lose ALL credibility.  You are trying to argue a case when you don't even know the circumstances or story.  You don't have to like it, but the comics/novels ARE canon, whether you accept it or not.

[Meltemph]

The point is this: sometimes when things go wrong you have to consider that maybe it wasn't anything you did wrong and that instead it was that you were being preyed upon by a very capable of enemy.

Oh I get what you were TRYING to say, I just don't think it was a point that helped your argument what-so-ever. You are underestimating TIM's ability to manipulate people and be willing to take "acceptable risks". I think he knew full well that the guy couldn't be fully trusted, be he needed him and he was willing to take the risk of less security because he knew the man could only do so much(In the words of Jacob, "a bunch of mechs are not enough to kill Miranda").

Modifié par Meltemph, 03 mars 2012 - 08:49 .

[Redzephyr]

Saphra Deden wrote...
So why didn't TIM just have a whole goddamn fleet in orbit around the station? Why not a fleet in orbit around that fleet?

You have to draw the goddamn line somewhere.

Better yet, let's not even bother with precautions at all. It always works out.

Fine then let's move on.

Thank you.

Except Shepard didn't intervene and even if Shepard didn't no havoc was unleashed on the galaxy. Reckless on Archer's part? Absolutely, but not a complete failure.

If I recall correctly, control of the communications centre was being seized with the presumed intent of broadcasting (and thus spreading) off-world. Shepard was the one that stopped that... and Archer sure couldn't have. No one else was left alive to do it.

Appeals to morality will gain you no ground with me. Try again.

Don't expect it to, even though such actions by Cerberus are in direct contradiction to their stated aims. It's easy to claim ideals you don't necessarily mean to uphold. Humanity first... but under an iron boot.

Hindsight is 20/20 and as we've seen your security measures have no end. You want an army of mechs and an army of security officers armed to the teeth. You want a fleet in orbit around the station to ward off attacks and land reinforcements if necessary.

You are way over the top.

I actually argued against the mechs being there at all. Sorry.
Also maintained that a small, elite security detail that Cerberus is known to have the capacity to field would have been sufficient.
Never mentioned the word fleet, nor did I intend to imply it. A couple of frigates with a marine detail would have been solid -- not extensive, but capable of bringing firepower and infantry support if needed. Even one would have been better than none.

Yeah, and otherwise it takes two of the greatest enemies in the series to make things go wrong.

Get some perspective.

Shadow Broker. Remember him? 

Criticised them for not trying to employ adequate security measures, not for those measures failing if they'd have been there.

Shadow Broker: remember him. He had a pretty solid defense force protecting his one tangible (and thus attackable) asset. Wasn't a match for Shepard, but again... hero of the story, force multiplier, etcetera.

It doesn't matter. They made it possible. They provided the critical piece of intel. Cerberus gets credit too.

Again, it doesn't matter. They did do it with Shepard and Shepard couldn't have done it without them. Cerberus gets credit too.

Yes, Cerberus helped. Yes, without Cerberus funding and super-science Shepard would not be alive to make use of their resources and his/her own abilities to face the threat. Yes, Cerberus gets credit, too.
Happy? I don't think I've really been aiming at Cerberus actions regarding the support of Shepard, anyway. They helped. This is a fact.

Absolutely.

One wonders where it stops. If Cerberus is all that's left, but they're still all human, it's still humanity first, right?

[titoarc]

maybe they think they can kill all the reapers alone , and all the other species in the way "human dominance in the galaxy and beyond"

[Hyrist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hyrist wrote...

Puppet for the reapers or not - the Illusive man remains morally ambiguous throughout.

No, not really. I've read the script.

Leaked script is still incomplete - don't treat it as your only source of info.

The ambigiouy comes as the question between his intents and his actions - and where you place the blame.

If you're read the script, you've leaked the ending to yourself - so what do speculate for a man who ALWAYS said that the ends justified the means?

The ambigiouy is in the question of where the Man ends, and the puppet begins.