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[xtorma]

RogueBot wrote...

xtorma wrote...

RogueBot wrote...

 Not all synthetic life is destined to destroy organic life... that's just what the Reapers think will happen, not what actually will happen.

It's just their reason to go on a killing spree every 50,000 years. No one ever said it made sense, other than the Reapers, of course. 

The writers say it's inevitable if organic life is left unchecked. As has been explained, they have eluded to this for quite some time through the other games. Ai will advance to the point where they no longer see us as more than insects. they may not go out of their way to destroy us, but they will eventually see us the same way we see aphids in our garden.

I don't go out of my way to kill an ant, but if I step on one in my day to day, im not going to get broken up about it.

To quote Commander Shepard from ME1, "I don't see that as inevitable."

I accept Bioware's explanation of the Reaper's motives, but still think the Reapers are bat**** crazy. My experience with Legion in ME2 really left me hopeful about the situation between the Geth and the Quarians. Maybe ME3 will change my outlook towards synthetics.

If you do not see it as inevitable , then you choose the control ending.

[Aesieru]

Actually, I think you choose the destroy ending.

[Dean_the_Young]

Aesieru wrote...

Those broken robots somehow infected a VI which killed everyone in an attempt to not be shut down.

Broken robots didn't infect the VI. Nor was there any claim, anywhere, that the corrupted VI's seek or are even capable of hacking other processes. No information is given how the station VI was infected, if it was infected at all (as opposed to over-reacting the threat of infection).

Nothing in the quest chain supports an Overlord-style threat of broadcast-infection, and the means by which the threat is resolved (the destruction of the factory producing the VI's) wouldn't solve the issue if it were. If the VI-corruption were a infection-and-spread routine, destroying the original source would be irrelevant.

[Vengeful Nature]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Those broken robots somehow infected a VI which killed everyone in an attempt to not be shut down.

Broken robots didn't infect the VI. Nor was there any claim, anywhere, that the corrupted VI's seek or are even capable of hacking other processes. No information is given how the station VI was infected, if it was infected at all (as opposed to over-reacting the threat of infection).

Nothing in the quest chain supports an Overlord-style threat of broadcast-infection, and the means by which the threat is resolved (the destruction of the factory producing the VI's) wouldn't solve the issue if it were. If the VI-corruption were a infection-and-spread routine, destroying the original source would be irrelevant.

I just played this mission. It's suggested that the station VI is being overzealous in protecting any possible threat to it's own systems, to the point where it started seeing the station staff as threats as well. It was not infected.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Those broken robots somehow infected a VI which killed everyone in an attempt to not be shut down.

Broken robots didn't infect the VI. Nor was there any claim, anywhere, that the corrupted VI's seek or are even capable of hacking other processes. No information is given how the station VI was infected, if it was infected at all (as opposed to over-reacting the threat of infection).

Nothing in the quest chain supports an Overlord-style threat of broadcast-infection, and the means by which the threat is resolved (the destruction of the factory producing the VI's) wouldn't solve the issue if it were. If the VI-corruption were a infection-and-spread routine, destroying the original source would be irrelevant.

I just played this mission. It's suggested that the station VI is being overzealous in protecting any possible threat to it's own systems, to the point where it started seeing the station staff as threats as well. It was not infected.

It's hard to say. The overzealous reaction might have been the result of an infection: Anaphylactic Shock isn't dangerous because of the thing being reacted against, but rather the reaction itself. People who are allergic to, say, a bee sting don't die from the bee sting: they die from the reaction to it.

But you are right that the station VI is never even explicitly said to be infected, let alone the manner in which it was infected.

[Aesieru]

The logs on the ground seem to indicate that it was infected.

[xtorma]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Those broken robots somehow infected a VI which killed everyone in an attempt to not be shut down.

Broken robots didn't infect the VI. Nor was there any claim, anywhere, that the corrupted VI's seek or are even capable of hacking other processes. No information is given how the station VI was infected, if it was infected at all (as opposed to over-reacting the threat of infection).

Nothing in the quest chain supports an Overlord-style threat of broadcast-infection, and the means by which the threat is resolved (the destruction of the factory producing the VI's) wouldn't solve the issue if it were. If the VI-corruption were a infection-and-spread routine, destroying the original source would be irrelevant.

and once it got out it would spread like wildfire. In order to preserve its own consciencness it would be sending out infected signals constantly. The infected vi in overlord knew its only chance was to get off world. It knew if it were trapped there it would never be able to grow beyond a certian point. I think it was slow because david was fighting it. Thats why i decided to save david

[Dean_the_Young]

Aesieru wrote...

The logs on the ground seem to indicate that it was infected.

The logs on the ground indicate the VI is afraid of infection. The logs make no claim that the VI is infected, or how such an infection would have been transmitted.

In fact, the logs even suggest the VI's actions were to prevent it from being corrupted by infected equipment.

[Dean_the_Young]

xtorma wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Those broken robots somehow infected a VI which killed everyone in an attempt to not be shut down.

Broken robots didn't infect the VI. Nor was there any claim, anywhere, that the corrupted VI's seek or are even capable of hacking other processes. No information is given how the station VI was infected, if it was infected at all (as opposed to over-reacting the threat of infection).

Nothing in the quest chain supports an Overlord-style threat of broadcast-infection, and the means by which the threat is resolved (the destruction of the factory producing the VI's) wouldn't solve the issue if it were. If the VI-corruption were a infection-and-spread routine, destroying the original source would be irrelevant.

and once it got out it would spread like wildfire. In order to preserve its own consciencness it would be sending out infected signals constantly. The infected vi in overlord knew its only chance was to get off world. It knew if it were trapped there it would never be able to grow beyond a certian point. I think it was slow because david was fighting it. Thats why i decided to save david

You realize we're talking about the Hahne-Kedar facility, not Overlord, do you not? The mechs in the dust storm, the space station that you have to avoid vents for, and the production lines putting out new mechs?

http://masseffect.wi...-Kedar_Facility

The isolated VI/AI we were talking about earlier was the Luna VI, on the moon.



Not, mind you, that the David-VI was a deliberate planning being. It was mad with pain and possibly influenced by the Geth, not calculating.

[xtorma]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

xtorma wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Those broken robots somehow infected a VI which killed everyone in an attempt to not be shut down.

Broken robots didn't infect the VI. Nor was there any claim, anywhere, that the corrupted VI's seek or are even capable of hacking other processes. No information is given how the station VI was infected, if it was infected at all (as opposed to over-reacting the threat of infection).

Nothing in the quest chain supports an Overlord-style threat of broadcast-infection, and the means by which the threat is resolved (the destruction of the factory producing the VI's) wouldn't solve the issue if it were. If the VI-corruption were a infection-and-spread routine, destroying the original source would be irrelevant.

and once it got out it would spread like wildfire. In order to preserve its own consciencness it would be sending out infected signals constantly. The infected vi in overlord knew its only chance was to get off world. It knew if it were trapped there it would never be able to grow beyond a certian point. I think it was slow because david was fighting it. Thats why i decided to save david

You realize we're talking about the Hahne-Kedar facility, not Overlord, do you not? The mechs in the dust storm, the space station that you have to avoid vents for, and the production lines putting out new mechs?

http://masseffect.wi...-Kedar_Facility

The isolated VI/AI we were talking about earlier was the Luna VI, on the moon.



Not, mind you, that the David-VI was a deliberate planning being. It was mad with pain and possibly influenced by the Geth, not calculating.

yes i know , i was using it as an example of how a vi would try and conserve itself. the best way to do that is to infect and occupy as many systems as possible, the more you infest theharder it is to eradicate you. I think the vi on luna had not progressed to the point where it understood it needed to get off world, it was still trying to cement control. It needs input to get smarter. you know this because as shep shut down each bunker the vi tried a new technique to stop him, in stead of having all the defences up at the beginning. It had not progressed to the point where it knew it needed to leave the station.

Had the vi on luna been smart , it would have tried to infect shepards omni-tool , or found some other means to get off the moon. It understood shepard was a threat , but it was not smart enough to do anything but try and preserve itself at that moment.

the vi at the robot building facility was smarter , but not quite there yet. it knoew it needed to get off, it knew it needed to infect as many systems as it could , but it did not understand that it had to keep itself hidden until it had enough memory to advance in intelligence.

the one thing all these vi had in common was that they all deduced that organics were a threat to them, and that brings us full circle back to what the reapers were trying to stop from happening.

[DRSH]

OK, but if Reapers are the answer to this technological singularity that was mentioned at the begining of this thread and they don't wish for organics to achieve it, then why do they need organics? why did we find out in ME2 that they were processing humans? to what purpose? fuel?

[Aesieru]

DRSH wrote...

OK, but if Reapers are the answer to this technological singularity that was mentioned at the begining of this thread and they don't wish for organics to achieve it, then why do they need organics? why did we find out in ME2 that they were processing humans? to what purpose? fuel?

2 minutes later you learn why, they were making another Reaper.

[Dean_the_Young]

xtorma wrote...

yes i know , i was using it as an example of how a vi would try and conserve itself. the best way to do that is to infect and occupy as many systems as possible, the more you infest theharder it is to eradicate you. I think the vi on luna had not progressed to the point where it understood it needed to get off world, it was still trying to cement control. It needs input to get smarter. you know this because as shep shut down each bunker the vi tried a new technique to stop him, in stead of having all the defences up at the beginning. It had not progressed to the point where it knew it needed to leave the station.

VIs are not computer viruses. They are individual systems: they don't simply transmit on anything with an interface.

What you're arguing is the effect of 'hey, your computer should download itself onto another computer to stay alive.' It doesn't work like that.

Had the vi on luna been smart , it would have tried to infect shepards omni-tool , or found some other means to get off the moon. It understood shepard was a threat , but it was not smart enough to do anything but try and preserve itself at that moment.

Besides the spoiler-possibility that the VI on Luna was an AI, and so unable to do so, there's also the other alternative that the VI simply isn't cognant.

Because, you know, VI. They don't think any more than your computer does: a flaw in a VI is just a flaw, not a higher design.

the vi at the robot building facility was smarter , but not quite there yet. it knoew it needed to get off, it knew it needed to infect as many systems as it could , but it did not understand that it had to keep itself hidden until it had enough memory to advance in intelligence.

The VI at the robot facility 'knew' nothing, because it was a VI. It was doing what it's programming told it to do: continue its job to make more VI and send them where they needed to go. It just happened to be that the VI that were being sent were homicidal for unknown reasons.

the one thing all these vi had in common was that they all deduced that organics were a threat to them, and that brings us full circle back to what the reapers were trying to stop from happening.

Except none of the VI deduced such, because they were VI.

They don't think. They are fancy calculators.

[Corvus Metus]

I love how people act like this is something new to the series.

In the first ME, you have the AI you encountered on the Citadel. It's response to being discovered? Kill everything around it. Even if Shepard tries to reason with it, it does not seem to care.

In ME2, you learn more about the Geth and discover that there is a division between "real" Geth and the heretics that serve the Reapers. You also learn the Geth really don't give a **** about the heretics or care that they intend to wipe out all organic life. The only reason Legion is concerned about the virus is because he doesn't want to think like they think. Not because he thinks genocide is wrong.

EDI is an exception to the rule, because she developed human emotions and thinks like a person, not a machine.

[Sylvanpyxie]

It's less a case of synthetic life being evil.
More a case of sentient life being stupid.

Sentient beings have a constant desire to expand, obtain what want through warfare, and attack those that are different.

Sentient beings will always wage war, it would only be a matter of time before they turned that lust for destruction and hatred of difference on synthetics and ultimately start a war that would spiral out of control.

Sentience is the enemy. Not Synthetics.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 04 mars 2012 - 11:51 .

[xtorma]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

xtorma wrote...

yes i know , i was using it as an example of how a vi would try and conserve itself. the best way to do that is to infect and occupy as many systems as possible, the more you infest theharder it is to eradicate you. I think the vi on luna had not progressed to the point where it understood it needed to get off world, it was still trying to cement control. It needs input to get smarter. you know this because as shep shut down each bunker the vi tried a new technique to stop him, in stead of having all the defences up at the beginning. It had not progressed to the point where it knew it needed to leave the station.

VIs are not computer viruses. They are individual systems: they don't simply transmit on anything with an interface.

What you're arguing is the effect of 'hey, your computer should download itself onto another computer to stay alive.' It doesn't work like that.

Had the vi on luna been smart , it would have tried to infect shepards omni-tool , or found some other means to get off the moon. It understood shepard was a threat , but it was not smart enough to do anything but try and preserve itself at that moment.

Besides the spoiler-possibility that the VI on Luna was an AI, and so unable to do so, there's also the other alternative that the VI simply isn't cognant.

Because, you know, VI. They don't think any more than your computer does: a flaw in a VI is just a flaw, not a higher design.

the vi at the robot building facility was smarter , but not quite there yet. it knoew it needed to get off, it knew it needed to infect as many systems as it could , but it did not understand that it had to keep itself hidden until it had enough memory to advance in intelligence.

The VI at the robot facility 'knew' nothing, because it was a VI. It was doing what it's programming told it to do: continue its job to make more VI and send them where they needed to go. It just happened to be that the VI that were being sent were homicidal for unknown reasons.

the one thing all these vi had in common was that they all deduced that organics were a threat to them, and that brings us full circle back to what the reapers were trying to stop from happening.

Except none of the VI deduced such, because they were VI.

They don't think. They are fancy calculators.

then why was david trying to get off world.

[Vaenier]

Aesieru wrote...

DRSH wrote...

OK, but if Reapers are the answer to this technological singularity that was mentioned at the begining of this thread and they don't wish for organics to achieve it, then why do they need organics? why did we find out in ME2 that they were processing humans? to what purpose? fuel?

2 minutes later you learn why, they were making another Reaper.

They were doing the exact thing they were trying to stop, they were consuming resources to grow in power.

[Dean_the_Young]

xtorma wrote...

then why was david trying to get off world.

David wasn't actually a VI, so it's rather irrelevant to your claims about VIs.

[xtorma]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

xtorma wrote...

then why was david trying to get off world.

David wasn't actually a VI, so it's rather irrelevant to your claims about VIs.

why was he trying to get off world....

[Dean_the_Young]

xtorma wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

xtorma wrote...

then why was david trying to get off world.

David wasn't actually a VI, so it's rather irrelevant to your claims about VIs.

why was he trying to get off world....

How does the Overlord relate to your claims about the non-sentient VIs?

No reason about the Overlord's motivations was ever given: it could have been the influence of the Geth, or simply a pained and suffering David's attempts to call other people to 'make it stop.' It wasn't a caluclated 'I will sustain myself and replicate myself' scheme: it was the thrashings of a suffering being.

[xtorma]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

xtorma wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

xtorma wrote...

then why was david trying to get off world.

David wasn't actually a VI, so it's rather irrelevant to your claims about VIs.

why was he trying to get off world....

How does the Overlord relate to your claims about the non-sentient VIs?

No reason about the Overlord's motivations was ever given: it could have been the influence of the Geth, or simply a pained and suffering David's attempts to call other people to 'make it stop.' It wasn't a caluclated 'I will sustain myself and replicate myself' scheme: it was the thrashings of a suffering being.

a suffering being